East Midlands - Midland Mainline Calling Points post East West Rail

[Mzzzs]

This is my idea :
I think a connect service to Leicester is a must have after electrification
Nottingham fast dropping calls south of Leicester Market Harborough and Kettering but gaining Beeston and Loughborough.
Nottingham stopper calls at Bedford and Wellingborough basically making a second connect between Bedford and Leicester

 

[A0]

This is my idea :
I think a connect service to Leicester is a must have after electrification
Nottingham fast dropping calls south of Leicester Market Harborough and Kettering but gaining Beeston and Loughborough.
Nottingham stopper calls at Bedford and Wellingborough basically making a second connect between Bedford and Leicester

Why is a connect service to Leicester a "must" ?

Not for the first time, where is this demand for travel between Leicester and Bedford coming from ? The overwhelming travel from Bedford is towards London (and has been for many years). Making a single change at Kettering is not exactly a hardship.

The only place south of Kettering which really justifies any additional stops is Luton Airport Parkway - and that's solely because of the airport connection, nothing else.

 

[cle]

The topic is for post-EWR. So I think you need to consider new rail users and journey potential, e.g. Oxford to Leicester. Yes there are other ways to do it today, but EWR will change patterns, especially based on timetables.

Bedford is going to become a more important interchange than it is today.

 

[Bevan Price]

I think that one of the biggest problems is that 5 coach trains are totally inadequate for many MML services. There should be at least 6 coaches of standard class seating. Then there would be more space for people travelling North of Bedford.

 

[JonathanH]

I think that one of the biggest problems is that 5 coach trains are totally inadequate for many MML services. There should be at least 6 coaches of standard class seating. Then there would be more space for people travelling North of Bedford.

Aren't they going to run a large proportion of services with two units?

Taking ten coaches all the way to Sheffield just to accommodate London to Bedford passengers is folly. As much as peak flow services need ten coaches there are many contra flow services where five coach trains are adequate.

 

[A0]

The topic is for post-EWR. So I think you need to consider new rail users and journey potential, e.g. Oxford to Leicester. Yes there are other ways to do it today, but EWR will change patterns, especially based on timetables.

Bedford is going to become a more important interchange than it is today.

I'm aware of that - but there is no journey time advantage sending passengers from Leicester or beyond via Bedford & EWR to Cambridge, Milton Keynes or Oxford when compared to the current journeys.

 

[William3000]

I'm aware of that - but there is no journey time advantage sending passengers from Leicester or beyond via Bedford & EWR to Cambridge, Milton Keynes or Oxford when compared to the current journeys.

Cambridge to Leicester's very circuitous and takes about 1hr 50 mins. It’s a similar distance as the crow flies from Cambridge to Norwich which takes just 1hr 20 mins.

Via EWR, Cambridge to Bedford is estimated to take about 40 mins and then depending on the change time, Bedford to Leicester is also about 40 mins so likely to be quicker via Bedford and certainly quicker for places east of Bedford that don’t have a direct link to Leicester as Cambridge does. And for anywhere north of Leicester like Derby or Sheffield it will definitely be quicker via Bedford.

 

[edwin_m]

And for anywhere north of Leicester like Derby or Sheffield it will definitely be quicker via Bedford.

There's also the route via Grantham.

 

[Magdalia]

Cambridge to Leicester's very circuitous and takes about 1hr 50 mins. It’s a similar distance as the crow flies from Cambridge to Norwich which takes just 1hr 20 mins.

It is correct that the existing rail route Cambridge-Leicester is indirect, but the route via Bedford is indirect too. The direct road route is via Huntingdon to Kettering where the rail line was closed in 1959. On journey time, rail can't compete with road Cambridge-Leicester by either route.

But it is not correct that Leicester is a similar distance from Cambridge as Norwich. Even going via Huntingdon and Kettering it is about 10 miles further. Note that the Cambridge-Norwich rail route via Ely is not direct either, the direct road route via Newmarket is about 10 miles shorter.

While the main rail route between Cambridge and Birmingham is via Peterborough, that will also be the main rail route for Cambridge-Leicester too.

 

[A0]

Cambridge to Leicester's very circuitous and takes about 1hr 50 mins. It’s a similar distance as the crow flies from Cambridge to Norwich which takes just 1hr 20 mins.

Via EWR, Cambridge to Bedford is estimated to take about 40 mins and then depending on the change time, Bedford to Leicester is also about 40 mins so likely to be quicker via Bedford and certainly quicker for places east of Bedford that don’t have a direct link to Leicester as Cambridge does. And for anywhere north of Leicester like Derby or Sheffield it will definitely be quicker via Bedford.

But a chunk of Cambridge - Leciester could be addressed with improvements on other lines (notably Ely - Peterborough) which are needed in any case. Ely - Peterborough is currently 75mph, that probably ought to be 90 / 100 mph.

Though at best (assuming 10 min connection) you're only saving 20 mins on Leicester - Cambridge, and that's by making a change as compared to using a direct train. Most passengers will opt for the direct train.

This obsession with Bedford becoming an important interchange is misplaced and it's being used to peddle the argument it should get more EMR services stopping there - yet stops south of Kettering were deleted as part of the last big timetable change because it allowed for speeding up of journeys from Sheffield, Nottingham, Derby and Leicester to London and reduced the overcrowding on those services caused by people using them to get between London and Luton, Bedford and Wellingborough.

 

[Nottingham59]

I expect that when EWR opens to Cambridge, East Midlands Trains will wait a year for travel patterns to settle down, and then have a look at how many passengers have started to use Bedford to change from EWR to MML services and vice versa. And then adjust calling patterns of long-distance services accordingly.

This is a relatively minor decision for EMT (or whoever the operator is then), and doesn't really need much planning five years in advance.

Personally, I'd expect Bedford to have the same problem as Tamworth: fine as a local interchange, but pretty useless for long-distance services.

 

[Topological]

A lot of the value of interchange at Bedford will depend on the frequency/speed of the trains between Cambridge and Oxford. IF those are faster and regular then connections to EWR become less of an issue.

All this talk of direct trains is fine, but they are small (whether that is CrossCountry from Derby* to Oxford, or CrossCountry from Cambridge to Leicester) and people do also like seats.

In the FANTASY sense of this section, connect going to Nottingham is feasible. No one would do end to end, but given Crewe has the equivalent of connect, wires to Nottingham would make 360s to Nottingham feasible.

 

[William3000]

I expect that when EWR opens to Cambridge, East Midlands Trains will wait a year for travel patterns to settle down, and then have a look at how many passengers have started to use Bedford to change from EWR to MML services and vice versa. And then adjust calling patterns of long-distance services accordingly.

This is a relatively minor decision for EMT (or whoever the operator is then), and doesn't really need much planning five years in advance.

Personally, I'd expect Bedford to have the same problem as Tamworth: fine as a local interchange, but pretty useless for long-distance services.

I see Bedford as more like a Stevenage than a Tamworth. Stevenage works well with some long distance services meaning people from north of London don’t have to go south to London to head north or spend a long time going to Peterborough. It also means places like Hertford, Letchworth, Royston can have easy services north.

 

[cle]

Depends on if Cambridge is ever reached. If not, all we are seeing is EWR / Oxford-Bedford 1tph - maybe 2tph, and maybe Marston would still be boosted. Not sure how much of that piece hangs on the Cambridge fate.

That would make Bedford a bit less of a crossroads, and more of a terminus. And if it's only the services up to Corby, I don't see tons of demand. EMT would be more compelling.

It's worth noting that a HS2 plan posited a Bedford-Sheffield/Leeds service once upon a time... so seemingly there is faith in some level of longer term, long distance demand.

And for the other journeys - like Oxford-Leicester or Cambridge-Leicester - or Notts/Sheffield... it's worth saying that even though these are possible today with one change and similar journey times - EWR adds a' frequency' and may have better connection times - plus the ability to avoid XC and New Street - cannot be underestimated. Maybe they can compete on cost even!

Also the Oxford-Birmingham service is rough, would be nice to offer alternatives to that experience and that capacity. Finally, there is also Bletchley and Bicester (a big growing market, and inbound demand to Village from East Midlands maybe)

 

[A0]

I see Bedford as more like a Stevenage than a Tamworth. Stevenage works well with some long distance services meaning people from north of London don’t have to go south to London to head north or spend a long time going to Peterborough. It also means places like Hertford, Letchworth, Royston can have easy services north.

Luton Airport Parkway would be better for EMR then - a similar distance from London to Stevenage and has thr airport as a traffic generator.