Hauled 411s/4CEPs in heavy snow

[Kein_Oreo]

Hi all,

There are a number of photos out there showing Class 411s/4CEPs being hauled by diesel locomotives during bouts of heavy snow in the 80s/90s (e.g. https://www.flickr.com/photos/74009/4221981302/ & https://www.flickr.com/photos/36034969@N08/6274333430/)

I was wondering if anyone is aware of anything similar happening in the early-mid 60s, and if it did, what locomotives were used to haul the 4CEPs?

Thanks!

 

[MikePJ]

Hi all,

There are a number of photos out there showing Class 411s/4CEPs being hauled by diesel locomotives during bouts of heavy snow in the 80s/90s (e.g. https://www.flickr.com/photos/74009/4221981302/ & https://www.flickr.com/photos/36034969@N08/6274333430/)

I was wondering if anyone is aware of anything similar happening in the early-mid 60s, and if it did, what locomotives were used to haul the 4CEPs?

Thanks!

Yup, I remember a long, slow journey to school in Portsmouth in the early 90s with a class 33 dragging 12-cars of dead slam-door EMUs (we used to have 4CEPs, 4CIGs and 4VEPs on the Portsmouth Direct line at the time). I can't help you on the 1960s, sorry!

 

[The exile]

It’s possible that during the 1963 winter (which would be the most likely candidate) there was still enough conventional hauled stock around to maintain a skeleton service.

 

[Mike Machin]

Again, I can't remember what happened in the '60's, but I do remember VEPs/HAPs/EPBs etc being hauled by Class 56 locomotives around SE London and Kent during a particularly heavy fall of snow in the mid 1980s or thereabouts. I think I recall Railfreight grey and NSE liveries together, so it must have been January 1987 at a guess.

 

[yorksrob]

One of the many advantages of the slam door stock was the ability to use it as dead coaching stock in extremis.

I experienced this once, albeit not in snow.

 

[LUYMun]

I was wondering if anyone is aware of anything similar happening in the early-mid 60s, and if it did, what locomotives were used to haul the 4CEPs?

Yup, I remember a long, slow journey to school in Portsmouth in the early 90s with a class 33 dragging 12-cars of dead slam-door EMUs (we used to have 4CEPs, 4CIGs and 4VEPs on the Portsmouth Direct line at the time).

There's a YouTube video I came across a short while ago showing a Class 33 hauling EMUs in the mid 90s to get over the high ground between Haslemere and Milford, which was known for poor rail adhesion:

 

[MikePJ]

There's a YouTube video I came across a short while ago showing a Class 33 hauling EMUs in the mid 90s to get over the high ground between Haslemere and Milford, which was known for poor rail adhesion:

Yeah, I lived in Liss and the gradient up to Buriton Tunnel was also a problem if things got slippery. The explanation at the time was BR's famous "wrong kind of snow" - if you got light, powdery snow it would get sucked into the cooling vents on the motors, resulting in it melting and damaging the motors. I see that the wrong kind of snow even has its own wikipedia page! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_wrong_type_of_snow

 

[4BEP]

Again, I can't remember what happened in the '60's, but I do remember VEPs/HAPs/EPBs etc being hauled by Class 56 locomotives around SE London and Kent during a particularly heavy fall of snow in the mid 1980s or thereabouts. I think I recall Railfreight grey and NSE liveries together, so it must have been January 1987 at a guess.

I recall half a Gatwick Express set, Mk2f, being topped and tailed by class 73s at Maidstone East in the snow of Jan 1987. They were on the down line and sat with engines running for several hours, they eventually ran back towards London as the line was blocked at Lenham with a class 33 and two snow ploughs buried. For most of the test of the disruption 4CEPs and 4VEPs were hauled or pushed by 33s.

 

[Taunton]

It’s possible that during the 1963 winter (which would be the most likely candidate) there was still enough conventional hauled stock around to maintain a skeleton service.

It wouldn't be possible to use the remaining steam locos of that time, as they were all vacuum brake only, and the emus were air brake. In fact that was what prevented using any visiting diesels, like Class 24, as well. At that time it was Class 33 or nothing.

 

[Cowley]

It wouldn't be possible to use the remaining steam locos of that time, as they were all vacuum brake only, and the emus were air brake. In fact that was what prevented using any visiting diesels, like Class 24, as well. At that time it was Class 33 or nothing.

Would there possibly have been a lot more spare steam heated stock and locomotives around in those days to cover for problems with the 3rd rail?

 

[Merle Haggard]

Yeah, I lived in Liss and the gradient up to Buriton Tunnel was also a problem if things got slippery. The explanation at the time was BR's famous "wrong kind of snow" - if you got light, powdery snow it would get sucked into the cooling vents on the motors, resulting in it melting and damaging the motors. I see that the wrong kind of snow even has its own wikipedia page! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_wrong_type_of_snow

The Wiki entry is a bit awry.
It arose from a T.V. interview of Terry Worrall* in which he explained the problem with fine dry snow. The interview was recorded by B.R. and he certainly never said 'wrong sort of snow' - it was a total invention by a journalist.

*B.R.B. Director, Operations

edited to add * amplification,.

 

[notverydeep]

The Wiki entry is a bit awry.
It arose from a T.V. interview of Terry Worrall* in which he explained the problem with fine dry snow. The interview was recorded by B.R. and he certainly never said 'wrong sort of snow' - it was a total invention by a journalist.

*B.R.B. Director, Operations

edited to add * amplification,.

That interview is critical for anyone wanting to understand why train operators ‘give up’ when there is snow or other adverse weather conditions. During that period many staff made Herculean efforts to keep some sort of service going for two days of very difficult, sometimes hazardous conditions including for those just trying to get in to help keep things running. For this the industry was harangued and mocked by the press. Managers learned a lesson that day: ‘why bother trying’ when you’re going to get the came reaction from doing nothing as you do for making an effort. I am not saying that the journalist who conducted that interview is the only person to blame, but their contribution to the present day frequency of ‘do not travel’ alerts is quite significant…

 

[Sun Chariot]

There's a YouTube video I came across a short while ago showing a Class 33 hauling EMUs in the mid 90s to get over the high ground between Haslemere and Milford, which was known for poor rail adhesion:

Marvellous stuff. Havant's just as wet as it was in that old video; but the motive power isn't anywhere as interesting. Perhaps that's Labour's first task, at handover from SWR to national ownership next May...

 

[30907]

Would there possibly have been a lot more spare steam heated stock and locomotives around in those days to cover for problems with the 3rd rail?

There would have been some - but by the winter of 1963 the SR steam fleet was much reduced (the SE had IIRC just 3 C 0-6-0s at Ashford Works which were commandeered for snowplough work (I remember the picture in the local paper!).
Were there any ex-LBSC locos with Westinghouse brake by then?

Digging out some 1963 magazines might be enlightening....

 

[WesternLancer]

That interview is critical for anyone wanting to understand why train operators ‘give up’ when there is snow or other adverse weather conditions. During that period many staff made Herculean efforts to keep some sort of service going for two days of very difficult, sometimes hazardous conditions including for those just trying to get in to help keep things running. For this the industry was harangued and mocked by the press. Managers learned a lesson that day: ‘why bother trying’ when you’re going to get the came reaction from doing nothing as you do for making an effort. I am not saying that the journalist who conducted that interview is the only person to blame, but their contribution to the present day frequency of ‘do not travel’ alerts is quite significant…

Point very well made imho.

 

[Merle Haggard]

There would have been some - but by the winter of 1963 the SR steam fleet was much reduced (the SE had IIRC just 3 C 0-6-0s at Ashford Works which were commandeered for snowplough work (I remember the picture in the local paper!).
Were there any ex-LBSC locos with Westinghouse brake by then?

Digging out some 1963 magazines might be enlightening....

As I've mentioned before, there was the big cull of locos. by class by 31.12.62, for the change to the B.R.B. organisation. This included the ex L.B.S.C. 'K' Moguls, which were mixed traffic engines and Westinghouse fitted. Some had been through Works shortly before withdrawal. Another class 'chopped' were the 3 - cylinder 'U1' moguls, and the S.E.C.R. 'L1' 4-4-0s, also Westinghouse fitted. To be fair, the locos concerned had loco. air brakes, I'm not sure that the train air brake system was still operative.

 

[Cowley]

There’s a very interesting article on snow in the Derby Sulzers site here.

snow on British Rail, railway snow pictures

www.derbysulzers.com

In amongst the section on the winter of 1963 was this:

In the south heavy snow and freezing conditions with heavy icing, coupled with power outages played havoc with SR Electric services, these being at an absolute low on January 3rd. So bad was the snow that the Tattenham Corner service resorted to steam haulage, the 'Night Ferry' workings were taken over by double headed BRCW Type 3's, with the diesels assisting other electric services sporadically throughout the region.

Then there was this about 1966:

Wintry conditions affected parts of the country between January 15th & 20th with snow in many areas. Blizzards on the 17th & 20th affected Kent with the Night Ferry reverting to two Type 3 diesels instead of the more normal electric locomotive. A de-icing train also traversed the North Kent line between Ramsgate, Faversham & Dover. Freezing rain on the morning of the 20th seriously impacted many Southern electric services. For most of the day the services operating bore little resemblance to the timetable, with steam and diesel assistance provided on some routes.

That’s as far as I’ve had time to read so far.

 

[Harpo]

That interview is critical for anyone wanting to understand why train operators ‘give up’ when there is snow or other adverse weather conditions. During that period many staff made Herculean efforts to keep some sort of service going for two days of very difficult, sometimes hazardous conditions including for those just trying to get in to help keep things running. For this the industry was harangued and mocked by the press. Managers learned a lesson that day: ‘why bother trying’ when you’re going to get the came reaction from doing nothing as you do for making an effort. I am not saying that the journalist who conducted that interview is the only person to blame, but their contribution to the present day frequency of ‘do not travel’ alerts is quite significant…

I totally disagree. It didn’t make a jot of difference to operators busting a gut to keep the railway running.

I’d definitely agree that the ethos of moving passengers, come what may, has been lost. But this wasn’t where it happened.

 

[Rescars]

There’s a very interesting article on snow in the Derby Sulzers site here.

snow on British Rail, railway snow pictures

www.derbysulzers.com

In amongst the section on the winter of 1963 was this:


Then there was this about 1966:


That’s as far as I’ve had time to read so far.

I wonder what locos were used on the Tattenham Corner branch. Would there have been any facility for turning locos at Tattenham Corner then? Running tender first in blizzard conditions can't be a lot of fun for those on the footplate.

 

[Magdalia]

Would there have been any facility for turning locos at Tattenham Corner then?

Yes. Tattenham Corner had a turntable for race specials including the Royal Train.

 

[Rescars]

Yes. Tattenham Corner had a turntable for race specials including the Royal Train.

Of course. IIRC, the last time steam was used for this Royal Train was in 1963.

 

[Route115?]

This is off-topic, but I do remember back in 1981 (I had just started with the railway) on the Bournemouth line during leaf fall on a day with bad adhesion, a Class 73 being attached to the front of my train mid-route. I forget if it was a Vep, Cig or REP/TC but I remember the driver instructing the shunter not to attract the control cables so likely the last of these. Presuambly a Class 73 (and again I can't remember if it was on diesel or electric, but I suspect the latter) could cope with slippery rails better. My memory is rather hasty - it was 43 years ago.

 

[steamybrian]

I remember the big freeze of the winter of 1962/63 but I was still at school and living in London. The road I was living in was blocked by a about a foot of snow.
In the early 1980s there was deep snow in West Kent and I was commuting from Tonbridge- Waterloo. A very limited service was provided by loco hauled EMUs but I was thankful to board and stand in a crowded Hastings DEMU to get me to London
In the 1980s (possibly 1987) I travelled in a 12 CEP hauled by a class 33 but later that day I returned home with just the 12 cep which sparked all the way from Waterloo East along the long climb to the summit at Knockholt where it cleared at about 5mph.

 

[Magdalia]

Of course. IIRC, the last time steam was used for this Royal Train was in 1963.

Nearly! Last steam was 1964.

 

[WesternLancer]

Nearly! Last steam was 1964.

But then a steam hauled trip over the s&c in more recent times iirc. Tho maybe 10 years or more ago.

Or am I making that up.

 

[Magdalia]

But then a steam hauled trip over the s&c in more recent times iirc. Tho maybe 10 years or more ago.

Or am I making that up.

We were referring to steam on the Royal Trains to Tattenham Corner, not more generally.

 

[WesternLancer]

We were referring to steam on the Royal Trains to Tattenham Corner, not more generally.

Aha. Apols for misunderstanding.

 

[nw1]

Marvellous stuff. Havant's just as wet as it was in that old video; but the motive power isn't anywhere as interesting. Perhaps that's Labour's first task, at handover from SWR to national ownership next May...

My (similar) experience was 33 hauling single 4VEP in January 1987, at a time of heavy snow, on the Portsmouth Direct south of Guildford.

There was a long wait at the station, during which time I saw 2 or 3 Guildford-Waterloo stopping shuttles (as they were that day) come in and out but eventually the train moved out and managed perfectly fine once on its way!