Getting Leigh (Gtr Manchester) back on the rail network

[Nym]

You mean the guided busway that is going to crash into the busyest part of the A580 that is another problem caused by the idiots at GMPTE.

Cancel the busway and spend the extra £20m on a train line!

EDIT: GMPTE never had 'the plot' to loose!

Can't find anything about it on the TfGM Website...

 

[yorksrob]

You mean the guided busway that is going to crash into the busyest part of the A580 that is another problem caused by the idiots at GMPTE.

Cancel the busway and spend the extra £20m on a train line!

EDIT: GMPTE never had 'the plot' to loose!

Can't find anything about it on the TfGM Website...

The irony is, it will probably come in at more than 20 million over budget anyway !

 

[Nym]

*Headdesks* Why don't GMPTE learn from Cambridge?

If you can make it a railway, MAKE IT A RAILWAY! Buses are not a long term solution for inter-urban travel!

 

[WatcherZero]

It worked well in Edinburgh and a few other places, they are also a staple of the Australian bus network. Remember the Busway was first approved a decade ago and its only just started construction after another two reviews last year and this year.

 

[yorksrob]

I travel to Leigh several times a year. It's got plenty of buses already. It's a link to the railway network that's missing. It's always going to be second fiddle if it has to rely on overpriced buses.

 

[Nym]

The guided busways work well, in places like Leeds where they turn tight corners and you can't put a TRAIN ON THE ROUTE!

When you can put steels down, why the hell would you want to have a bus instead of a train? I can't think of any benifits for Leigh where you don't have multiple routes branching off the guided busway (the same as Cambridge).

 

[WatcherZero]

It links into the seperate cross city bus corridor and Oxford road bus corridor so in effect its segregated corridor from other traffic for almost the entire route from Leigh to Manchester University.

Tracks could have run over what remains of the rail corridor but the bit in Leigh town centre and from Leigh down to Chat Moss has been entirely built over so it would require a station about a mile from the town centre. Theres also nothing to stop light rails being laid over the guided bus route in the distant future if passenger numbers increased. In a lot of countries high frequency bus routes are setup to operate specific corridors to influence development and commuter patterns, building passenger numbers and making the economics for laying tracks better.

 

[Nym]

It also paves over parts of the A580 and reduces an already under capacity road and reduce it even more, bright ideas 'r' us they are!

Really, am I the only one that sees this is an absolutely idiotic idea!

And I'm not suggesting running to the Chat Moss, I'm saying run to WALKDEN!

Let me say it again, WALKDEN, then through SALFORD CRESCENT...

 

[lancastrian]

Rail route was costed at 90m, guided busway was costed at 70m, the area has quite good bus links but there prone to getting stuck in traffic in the town centres and along the East Lancs, the guided bus way uses the former rail line to provide a bypass so the buses could skip most of the heavy traffic. And yes the busway has started construction.

What is it with politican's, when the answer for any sensable person is Rail, they decide to build a 'busway'. Don't the elected morrons in Greater Mancehster Council ever see what happens in the rest of the UK. A quick look ast the CAST.IRON website will show them what a complete over priced, over budget, runaway cost shambles has happened in Cambridge. Over two years after the 'Offical Opening Date' it is still the most expensive footpath and cycle route ever developed in this or possibly any other country.

Those responsable should be taken to court for the way they have really messed up a potentially good rail link and replaced it with ??????? I have no idea, someone please tell me !!!!

I really hope that they have not started down the complete dead end of guided busway. If they have then we need to vote them out and put in someone who knows what they are doing. Although the fact they do know what they are doing will disqualify them from being a politican, on the grounds that they are actually compitant.

Yet again in 1970 we had a very useful rail rout that not only served a number of population areas, which have since grown in numbers. Pennington, Leigh, Tyldesley, Ellenbrook, Monton and others. It was closed to save the cost of a bridge over the M602. Typical shortsighted, morronic politicans.

Sorry about the rant, but I get so annoyed with daft decission on rail transport by politicans and civil servants.

 

[WatcherZero]

Even the local rail campaign group have accepted that the busway is the best way of servicing Leighs transport needs so long as it doesnt preclude future rail access being developed.

GMPTE Consultations bring new light onto the Busway 06/02/2011


First of all, I want to extend my thanks to the team at GMPTE. They come across as professional and engaging. I have had two meetings with them to date and have found them to be helpful and constructive in their approach. They have provided much needed information on the guided busway and have taken our group into serious consideration, listening to my comments and appraisal of the busway and the overwhelming call for heavy rail to be re-instated in some way.


Overall, their view is that such a heavy rail scheme would be complimentary to the busway and having listened to the case and studied the documents and maps, I agree. The LSM scheme does deliver a different result that takes nothing away from our proposed rail link. The busway serves an entirely different section of the community, and the demographic studies for the stops on the busway show that there is a reduced car ownership, coupled with an increased catchment for the scheme, both of which help the scheme score very highly in the criteria needed to attract funding from the £1.5bn currently in the pot for transport schemes under the supervision of GMPTE.


As such, even fighting the busway, which itself could be a worthwhile cause for someone, the rejection of the LSM scheme would not mean that the money would be used for a rail scheme such as ours. Based on the current scoring criteria for the attraction of funding, our rail scheme would struggle to perform and with such a short time period left in this round of funding, it would be very difficult to carry out a full economic, social and environmental assessment of a scheme such as ours.


Therefore, on the basis of a thorough investigation by me into the busway scheme, it would be a great distraction for this group to get bogged down in an anti-busway campaign, when this would not guarantee a railway. In fact, seeing the schemes as complimentary is a much more sensible approach and one which should enable us to work more closely with the council and other organisations who previously had fears over our group becoming an anti-busway campaign, which we are not.


All that being said, the busway does cost a lot of money and folk may have genuine grounds for complaint about the legitimacy of the scheme, but that will not be for this group to champion as we now consider our primary focus to the the promotion of a heavy rail scheme regardless of what happens to the busway. From what I have seen of the modelling for the busway and the scheme details, based on the criteria set out for the busway itself, I have confidence that the team at GMPTE have done everything they can to be sure that the busway will be a success for the purpose it was intended, which I reiterate, is not the same criteria for the provision of a heavy rail link such as the one proposed by this group.

http://www.transportforleigh.org.uk...ltations_bring_new_light_onto_the_Busway.html

Its better to talk to locals and see the situation on the ground rather than dismissing something straight away.

 

[The_Rail_WAy]

I was always under the impression that there was very little chance of a railway running into Leigh but there was a slight possibility of Metrolink getting there by 2020?

Seems so stupid that the Bolton to Leigh railway, which coincidently was one of the first operational railways in the world was removed. Whith of the chances of the line being reintroduced being absolutely minimal. I presume most of the trackbed has been developed on, particuarly from Chequerbent northwards.

 

[Nym]

I was always under the impression that there was very little chance of a railway running into Leigh but there was a slight possibility of Metrolink getting there by 2020?

Seems so stupid that the Bolton to Leigh railway, which coincidently was one of the first operational railways in the world was removed. Whith of the chances of the line being reintroduced being absolutely minimal. I presume most of the trackbed has been developed on, particuarly from Chequerbent northwards.

23 houses and industry

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

23 houses and industry

Do I take it that you were unaware of the current position of the guided busway in the Leigh area, until the information was posted on this thread?

 

[tbtc]

*Headdesks* Why don't GMPTE learn from Cambridge?

The Cambridge problems are nothing to do with busways, they are to do with a contractor trying to cut corners and extract more money from the council.

Similarly, the Edinburgh problems are nothing to do with trams, they are to do with a council trying to cut corners and get the contractor to do more work.

Both are bad project management, but then you could say the same about most big rail projects in recent years (WCML upgrade? Airdrie - Bathgate?), and there's no shortage of "non transport" equivalents (Wembley Stadium...)

 

[yorksrob]

Even the local rail campaign group have accepted that the busway is the best way of servicing Leighs transport needs so long as it doesnt preclude future rail access being developed.



http://www.transportforleigh.org.uk...ltations_bring_new_light_onto_the_Busway.html

Its better to talk to locals and see the situation on the ground rather than dismissing something straight away.

As someone who uses public transport to get to Leigh on a regular basis, I think the idea that the busway and rail will ever co-exist is wrong for two reasons.

Firstly, whilst it's easy for GMPTE to come up with warm words about these schemes complimenting each other, I have serious doubts that they have any intention of stumping up support or indeed cash for two main transport projects in Leigh. Are there any suggestions forthcoming as to where the extra money will come from, particularly as the busway was chosen, seemingly to save 20 million pounds in the first place?

Secondly, Site and trackbed. The trackbed between Leigh and the Walkden area is unencombered except for some industrial development on the site of the old station itself (which could be easily re-located). This is ideal for foot passengers to the town centre, much more so than Pennington, yet this is precisely the area swallowed up by the proposed busway (surprise surprise). Secondly, I'm not convinced that the railway south of Leigh will be able to cope with the conflicts of movement created by a branch to Pennington, particularly as this is set to become the main trans pennine route between Liverpool and Manchester (even more so if we are set to have a triangular junction to allow the reversal of main line stoppers). I fear that the best we will end up with will be a "Kenyon Junction Parkway" which, as Transport for Leigh have pointed out, would be little better than Atherton is now.
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The Cambridge problems are nothing to do with busways, they are to do with a contractor trying to cut corners and extract more money from the council.

Similarly, the Edinburgh problems are nothing to do with trams, they are to do with a council trying to cut corners and get the contractor to do more work.

Both are bad project management, but then you could say the same about most big rail projects in recent years (WCML upgrade? Airdrie - Bathgate?), and there's no shortage of "non transport" equivalents (Wembley Stadium...)

Hello there tbtc, we've heard many times how unconvinced you are about the economic benefits of re-opening railway passenger lines. What are your views on very expensive infrastructure projects which will do little except duplicate and marginally speed up existing bus routes, and who's direct revenue will only go to fill the coffers of the bus companies, and whose payment for the infrastructure will be even more indirect than a railway TOC paying towards a re-opened branchline?

 

[WatcherZero]

Nope, no loss of footpaths, a footpath and cycleway runs the full length of the busway.

 

[yorksrob]

Nope, no loss of footpaths, a footpath and cycleway runs the full length of the busway.

I wasn't even aware that it was a footpath/cyclepath, although I'm sure there'd be equally no problem having one alongside a railway (more space and less fumes for starters).

It was more that the site of the old station is far better sited for town centre passengers arriving on foot to catch the train onwards, or for passengers arriving by train in Leigh, to continue on foot, than Pennington (or, more realistically IMO Kenyon Junction).

 

[lancastrian]

I wasn't even aware that it was a footpath/cyclepath, although I'm sure there'd be equally no problem having one alongside a railway (more space and less fumes for starters).

It was more that the site of the old station is far better sited for town centre passengers arriving on foot to catch the train onwards, or for passengers arriving by train in Leigh, to continue on foot, than Pennington (or, more realistically IMO Kenyon Junction).

I agree with you, but my suggestion about a Leigh parkway on the site of Kenyon Junction was purely because it is the cheapest option, and there more likely to happen. Plus there is the space there for both the reinstated platforms and a large former goods yard that would easily converted into a decent carpark. The extended Atherleigh Way from Wilton lane to the East Lancs Road would be the largest cost. but again building this road link would benefit the people of Culcheth and Kenyon, giving both access to the rail system and take a lot of taffic of Wilton Lane towards Lowton.

 

[yorksrob]

I agree with you, but my suggestion about a Leigh parkway on the site of Kenyon Junction was purely because it is the cheapest option, and there more likely to happen. Plus there is the space there for both the reinstated platforms and a large former goods yard that would easily converted into a decent carpark. The extended Atherleigh Way from Wilton lane to the East Lancs Road would be the largest cost. but again building this road link would benefit the people of Culcheth and Kenyon, giving both access to the rail system and take a lot of taffic of Wilton Lane towards Lowton.

That's fair enough, and If there were no alternative then it would probably be worth pursuing.

I just think that while there is a viable trackbed into the town, and whilst there is major money around, about to be splashed out on infrastructure, it should be used for what the local residents have been campaigning for, rather than a busway which wasn't wanted in the first place.

In fact, I think I agree with you in as much as if this bus lane does go ahead, I see little prospect anything on rails getting anywhere nearer to Leigh.

 

[tbtc]

Hello there tbtc, we've heard many times how unconvinced you are about the economic benefits of re-opening railway passenger lines. What are your views on very expensive infrastructure projects which will do little except duplicate and marginally speed up existing bus routes, and who's direct revenue will only go to fill the coffers of the bus companies, and whose payment for the infrastructure will be even more indirect than a railway TOC paying towards a re-opened branchline?

Evening...

I'm all for investment and new/re-opened lines. However, some of the ones suggested are a little fanciful, and get hyped up with the "Alloa got loads of passengers, so every scheme will perform well" logic...

The problem I have is that we struggle to match supply of trains/seats with demand on existing lines. And I think that we should sort these busy routes out before we go speculating resources at new links which may or may not work.

For example, the 15m Pacers between Manchester and Wigan seem to struggle with loadings (based on my experience).So, whilst reconnecting Leigh sounds a nice idea, I'd rather we focussed on getting better/longer trains for the Wigan route. If there are spare paths in Manchester for these new Leigh services then why aren't they being used for additional trains from Chester/ Bolton/ Liverpool?

Same with our old argument about Skipton - Colne; anything here would be a luxury whilst we need to deal with the *thousands* using the main Transpennine route from Leeds to Manchester.

Yes, but privatisation is a mess (just like rail privatisation). And, no, I don't back every guided busway idea I see. But we need to get away from the mentality of "Guided Busway/ Light Rail = Bad, Railway = Good".

As I've said (a few times!), the problems of the Cambridge Busway and the Edinburgh Trams are down to the kind of poor project management that has hurt several rail schemes. These problems are nothing to do with the types of transport.

 

[yorksrob]

Evening...

I'm all for investment and new/re-opened lines. However, some of the ones suggested are a little fanciful, and get hyped up with the "Alloa got loads of passengers, so every scheme will perform well" logic...

The problem I have is that we struggle to match supply of trains/seats with demand on existing lines. And I think that we should sort these busy routes out before we go speculating resources at new links which may or may not work.

For example, the 15m Pacers between Manchester and Wigan seem to struggle with loadings (based on my experience).So, whilst reconnecting Leigh sounds a nice idea, I'd rather we focussed on getting better/longer trains for the Wigan route. If there are spare paths in Manchester for these new Leigh services then why aren't they being used for additional trains from Chester/ Bolton/ Liverpool?

Same with our old argument about Skipton - Colne; anything here would be a luxury whilst we need to deal with the *thousands* using the main Transpennine route from Leeds to Manchester.

Yes, but privatisation is a mess (just like rail privatisation). And, no, I don't back every guided busway idea I see. But we need to get away from the mentality of "Guided Busway/ Light Rail = Bad, Railway = Good".

As I've said (a few times!), the problems of the Cambridge Busway and the Edinburgh Trams are down to the kind of poor project management that has hurt several rail schemes. These problems are nothing to do with the types of transport.

Hello again tbtc

I think the argument about lack of trains and seats is to a large extent putting the cart before the horses. Yes, due to the (ahem) management issues of the railway today we are in a spot where it is unusually difficult to procure trains/seats, but traditionally, this has been a very fluid issue, which can be solved or alleviated through various means - building trains, buying trains refurbishing trains, cascading trains. The current situation could change in the future.

Similarly with signalling. How long is it until the signalling North West of Manchester is due for renewal. How long ago was it that trains in the area had more than four or five carriages. All of the infrastructure/rolling stock problems outlined by yourself could be a historical blip in twenty years time.

What isn't temporary is heavy infrastructure. If this busway is built, it will destroy the opportunity to have a railway serve Tydesley and the centre of Leigh for ever.

I agree that when we have scarse resourses to spend on rolling stock and the main lines wasting resources is unforgiveable. I seriously doubt that spending millions of pounds upgrading an already adequate bus service to a slightly better one will provide anywhere near as great a social and economic benefit to an area like Leigh as linking it to the primary inter-urban public transport network in the country.

Out of interest, do you think this guided busway is a good idea ?

 

[lancastrian]

Yes, but privatisation is a mess (just like rail privatisation). And, no, I don't back every guided busway idea I see. But we need to get away from the mentality of "Guided Busway/ Light Rail = Bad, Railway = Good".

Hi tbbc.

I don't automatically think "Guided Busway/Light Rail = Bad, Railway = Good". Yes 99% of most well planed rail extensions are good, just a personal opinion. I was very annoyed at the last Labour Government when the cancelled a number of Light Rail projects. In fact I would be quite happy if metrolink was extended out through Tyldesly to Leigh, using as much of the old Rail route as is practically possible. My personal view is that on general principles 'Light Rail' is a good idea, it opens up areas that weren't previously on the rail network, plus is often reopens old railway lines, as well as replacing closed 'heavy rail' routes.

There have been a very few guided busways that have worked well, mainly for inner city routes which seperate the buses from the rest of the traffic. But when they try and replace heavy rail with a guided busway, it is often a failure. This is usually because, having sent the buses on the old rail line, which is often not where the buses are needed, yhey arive at the outskirts of the town/city they are feeding into and they are then forced onto the ordinary roads, which slows them down so much, when the trains/trams are moving swiftly on their own seperste tracks, and even when they are using the roads, as in Manchester, they still seem to be faster than the buses.

To me Heavy/Light rail + Good, Guided Busways = doubtful.