• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Class 17 reliability

Status
Not open for further replies.

Samantha H

Member
Joined
1 Dec 2024
Messages
6
Location
Melbourne
So this may seem a very obvious question maybe with an obvious source for an answer but there are sources out there which put these down as 60% available for work which is put forward as bad. What was the availability of the locomotives they displaced/replaced when introduced?

Thanks in advance for anyone who can pull up figures.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Magdalia

Established Member
Joined
1 Jan 2022
Messages
7,443
Location
The Fens
So this may seem a very obvious question maybe with an obvious source for an answer but there are sources out there which put these down as 60% available for work which is put forward as bad. What was the availability of the locomotives they displaced/replaced when introduced?

Thanks in advance for anyone who can pull up figures.
Welcome to the forum.

If you can, then you should get a copy of Anthony Sayer's book on the Clayton Type 1s, published by Pen and Sword in 2021.

The book goes into a lot of detail, including data.

When introduced, the locomotives were mostly replacing steam traction, the more relevant comparison is with other Type 1 diesels.
 

Merle Haggard

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2019
Messages
3,991
Location
Northampton
So this may seem a very obvious question maybe with an obvious source for an answer but there are sources out there which put these down as 60% available for work which is put forward as bad. What was the availability of the locomotives they displaced/replaced when introduced?

Thanks in advance for anyone who can pull up figures.

Someone I worked with had started his career at Bathgate shed. He worked there when it was dieselised; it was allocated 'Claytons' and English Electric Type 1s.
The diagrams were complicated and a loco left the shed not to be seen for four or five days before it returned for exam.
He said that, on the appointed day, the EE1s always came back on cue, the 'Claytons' rarely...
 

The exile

Established Member
Joined
31 Mar 2010
Messages
9,501
Location
Somerset
I know it doesn't answer your question - but seeing "Class 17" and "reliability" in the same sentence sems so incongruous....
 

Samantha H

Member
Joined
1 Dec 2024
Messages
6
Location
Melbourne
Someone I worked with had started his career at Bathgate shed. He worked there when it was dieselised; it was allocated 'Claytons' and English Electric Type 1s.
The diagrams were complicated and a loco left the shed not to be seen for four or five days before it returned for exam.
He said that, on the appointed day, the EE1s always came back on cue, the 'Claytons' rarely...
I'm sure there's plenty of anecdotes along these lines but you'd imagine if the problem was so bad in comparison to things they replaced there would be published figures to show they were inferior to what they replaced however I'm having a hard time finding any, so is it that they were unreliable in comparison to the things they replaced or just unreliable in comparison to other diesel types of the time? If its the former then their reputation as bad is perhap somewhat unearned as they would still represent a saving of hours and step up in working conditions for crews on them just not be quite as good as the other types coming in.
 

Magdalia

Established Member
Joined
1 Jan 2022
Messages
7,443
Location
The Fens
you'd imagine if the problem was so bad in comparison to things they replaced there would be published figures to show they were inferior to what they replaced however I'm having a hard time finding any
There wouldn't have been published figures at the time, but lots of the British Railways internal documents survive in the National Archives at Kew. Fortunately for you Anthony Sayer has already done the research, and published lots of the data in his book.
 

Big Jumby 74

Established Member
Joined
12 Feb 2022
Messages
2,256
Location
UK
My understanding is that the surviving loco record cards (works/faults) for the Clayton's are thin on the ground, so reliable info for many individual class members may never be known, but having said that I don't have the book mentioned by Magdalia. I will say any traction with a 60% service availability figure, is poor. On my old patch (3rd rail EMUs) in the 70/80's most classes were planned for and turned out 95% availability day in day out for service, with occasional drops to around 90% to allow for rolling (specific fleet type wide) works visits or modifications. Availability for diesel loco traction was not something I was ever involved with in any great detail so wouldn't want to put a figure on same, but as said, 60% in anyone's world is poor.
On the plus side the Clayton cab environment, spacious, all round vision, must have been a massive improvement for those working them. Was lucky enough to have that experience on the sole survivor long before it entered the sanctuary of preservation.
 

Taunton

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Aug 2013
Messages
12,347
You have to remember that figures like "availability" are subject to all sorts of variables, which may be somewhat unconnected with the actual unit. Locos may be stood on one side awaiting some trivial part, which is just out of stock because the spares procurement team have not got it on the shelf. or, with a shortage of fitters, some work is given priority over others. There were also occasional wild swings in diesel availability, both locos and dmus, at depots, just as different shedmasters came and went.
 

Merle Haggard

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2019
Messages
3,991
Location
Northampton
I discovered some interesting details about the 'Loco Availability' percentage figures when I worked in Freight Marketing and we wondered why there were so many failures (our aspect was apologising to customers for yet another late running train disrupting their production line).
The standard method of loco. availability was the declaration how many locos. in a pool were 'available for traffic' at a single point in time (I think 09.00, not sure) each day. This was then set against the total number of of locos. in the pool to provide the percentage availability.
The 'available' declaration included locos working trains (no debate there!) but also locos on depots and in holding sidings on breaks in their diagrams. What was surprising was the frequency with which locos in the latter situation and declared as 'available' when started up to continue their work, were failed. Sometimes., even on the T.M.D. and also for reasons that surely existed at the time of the declaration, e.g. 'flat batteries' or 'low on fuel'..
From this, I suggest that any 'availability' figure is probably optimistic.
 

Samantha H

Member
Joined
1 Dec 2024
Messages
6
Location
Melbourne
My understanding is that the surviving loco record cards (works/faults) for the Clayton's are thin on the ground, so reliable info for many individual class members may never be known, but having said that I don't have the book mentioned by Magdalia. I will say any traction with a 60% service availability figure, is poor. On my old patch (3rd rail EMUs) in the 70/80's most classes were planned for and turned out 95% availability day in day out for service, with occasional drops to around 90% to allow for rolling (specific fleet type wide) works visits or modifications. Availability for diesel loco traction was not something I was ever involved with in any great detail so wouldn't want to put a figure on same, but as said, 60% in anyone's world is poor.
On the plus side the Clayton cab environment, spacious, all round vision, must have been a massive improvement for those working them. Was lucky enough to have that experience on the sole survivor long before it entered the sanctuary of preservation.
I shall hunt the book down but again if it only contains data on the Claytons and not the things they pushed aside then it doesn't really answer the question of comparative reliability, we're already seeing perhaps a hint at a causative factor in the figures being lack of appropriate maintainance facilities compared to the diagrams they were put on making any issues more time consuming and troublesome to deal with since a loco could have an issue that perhaps with a steam equivalent could be rememdied on shed at any number of locations where as the expertise and resources were isolated to a couple of sheds for the Clayton.

The whole thing just has a wiff of pop history to it and that ever present resentment towards early diesels simply for displacing steam.
 

Big Jumby 74

Established Member
Joined
12 Feb 2022
Messages
2,256
Location
UK
we're already seeing perhaps a hint at a causative factor in the figures being lack of appropriate maintainance facilities compared to the diagrams they were put on making any issues more time consuming and troublesome to deal with since a loco could have an issue that perhaps with a steam equivalent could be rememdied on shed at any number of locations where as the expertise and resources were isolated to a couple of sheds for the Clayton.
That's the rub of it, all very good points. To get a clear picture one has to have access to the loco diagrams concerned, both pre Clayton, and for the Clayton's themselves, at say, the time table date when the entire class was commissioned, which looks to have been roughly in numerical order, 8616 arriving new at Barrow Hill in April 65. Given their introduction would likely have involved a degree of pre planned changes to both existing loco diagrams and crew rosters in readiness for their arrival, a clear picture is very hard to pin down me thinks!

There was also the issue of early diesels having to be maintained in old steam shed environments. Far from ideal at the best of times. With the clean air act in London in the 50's, the Eastern stole a march on the other regions with a number of new diesel specific facilities, Devons Road, Bow, and Stratford being the first I believe, but many other locations soon coming on stream such as Ipswich etc.
The whole thing just has a wiff of pop history to it and that ever present resentment towards early diesels simply for displacing steam
I wasn't there at the time, but having worked on the job, I do wonder if a lot of this sort of sentiment has over the years come from the enthusiast side of the fence? On the subject of Claytons and Barrow Hill/Staverly sheds, I did once hear that the steam guys there at the time, once having got their hands on their new toys (17's), couldn't get rid of their old steam mounts fast enough - they could actually go home at shift's end with overalls and themselves still reasonably clean. I suspect this is true of many who went through the steam to diesel/electric transition, even if saying so (even this far after August 1968) still causes a sharp intake of breath in some quarters....!
 

Merle Haggard

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2019
Messages
3,991
Location
Northampton
My understanding is that the surviving loco record cards (works/faults) for the Clayton's are thin on the ground, so reliable info for many individual class members may never be known, but having said that I don't have the book mentioned by Magdalia. I will say any traction with a 60% service availability figure, is poor. On my old patch (3rd rail EMUs) in the 70/80's most classes were planned for and turned out 95% availability day in day out for service, with occasional drops to around 90% to allow for rolling (specific fleet type wide) works visits or modifications. Availability for diesel loco traction was not something I was ever involved with in any great detail so wouldn't want to put a figure on same, but as said, 60% in anyone's world is poor.
On the plus side the Clayton cab environment, spacious, all round vision, must have been a massive improvement for those working them. Was lucky enough to have that experience on the sole survivor long before it entered the sanctuary of preservation.

Before the enhancements to T.OP.S. I think each diesel loco carried a Defect Book. Sometimes, at least on diesel shunters, they were still on the locos. when they went for scrap, so most have gone The Engine Record Cards at least in steam days were kept at Derby and only recorded works visits, detail alterations etc not individual failures.
 

Big Jumby 74

Established Member
Joined
12 Feb 2022
Messages
2,256
Location
UK
I shall hunt the book down but again if it only contains data on the Claytons and not the things they pushed aside then it doesn't really answer the question of comparative reliability
I have just dug out the companion volume for the class 15s/16s which I do have (my purchase choice was/is a 30A - Stratford thing!). It does include tables showing % availability by week/period for various dates based on 24 hour averages with average weekly mileages, all by type/number of units on strength, not by individual painted number. In the case of these, there is a one page 'High level summary of operations' - much of their early work was replacing steam on cross London freights and internal (ER) trip workings based at the likes of Kings Lynn, March, Norwich, Ipswich, Finsbury Park. So the types (of steam loco) replaced will have been many and varied - from my own personal interests, I know Devons Road, Bow, used a good many Jinty 0-6-0T's until they were displaced by class 15/16 in basic terms, which is the closest comparison that springs to my mind - as for Jinty availability?

Also to be remembered that at the time these diesels (17s included) were being introduced there was a rapidly increasing shift of related freight work leaving the railway for the convenience of road haulage, which complicates any comparison research work even further. It would likely be a minefield/mountain of research work, with a likelihood of very little positive result..:|
 

norbitonflyer

Established Member
Joined
24 Mar 2020
Messages
5,852
Location
SW London
I'm sure there's plenty of anecdotes along these lines but you'd imagine if the problem was so bad in comparison to things they replaced there would be published figures to show they were inferior to what they replaced however I'm having a hard time finding any, so is it that they were unreliable in comparison to the things they replaced or just unreliable in comparison to other diesel types of the time? If its the former then their reputation as bad is perhap somewhat unearned as they would still represent a saving of hours and step up in working conditions for crews on them just not be quite as good as the other types coming in.
The justification for dieselisation was that their supposedly greater availability compared with steam justified the higher capital cost. (I recall seeing a figure of 22 Deltics replacing 55 Pacifics, although some of those savings were the result of reduced journey times allowing more round trips in a day per loco). Thus the expectation was that Claytons would be more available than the steam locos they replaced. It would nevertheless have been disappointing if they were, say, 10% more available if they had been expected to be 30% better.
 

Magdalia

Established Member
Joined
1 Jan 2022
Messages
7,443
Location
The Fens
I shall hunt the book down but again if it only contains data on the Claytons and not the things they pushed aside then it doesn't really answer the question of comparative reliability

I have just dug out the companion volume for the class 15s/16s
Both books refer to fleet availability data from a National Traction Plan (NTP) "Progress report and assessment of position at 18 April 1966".

In the BTH/NBL book this is on page 202, and gives 80% availability for the BTH/NBL locos compared with 91% for the EE type 1s, the NTP target for Type 1s being 90%.

In the Clayton book the comparison is only in a footnote on page 220, and gives 67% availability for the Claytons, again contrasting with 91% for the EE type 1s.
 

6Gman

Established Member
Joined
1 May 2012
Messages
9,241
On a visit to Toton in the mid/late 1970s I saw a chart showing weekly (?) availability figures for the various classes based there. My recollection (it was a long time ago!) was that most classes were in the 80-90% category. Unsurprisingly the most variable were the 44s (since there were only ten of them). Later I worked in a department which dealt with allocations to depots and again I believe the benchmark was 80-90%.

To give a steam comparison the W Class on the Southern had 15 locos and were used on cross-London freight (so comparable with a lot of Type 1/2 work) - they had 11 daily diagrams, suggesting 73% availability.
 

Sun Chariot

Established Member
Joined
16 Mar 2009
Messages
6,779
Location
2 miles and 50 years away from the Longmoor Milita
Multiple sources I've read over the years, cited the class 59 was delivered to meet Foster Yeoman's requirement of 95% service availability
The 59s' first decade in fact achieved an astonishing 99.8% availability. Figures way ahead of any other UK diesel class.
 

Richard Scott

Established Member
Associate Staff
International Transport
Railtours & Preservation
Joined
13 Dec 2018
Messages
4,588
Multiple sources I've read over the years, cited the class 59 was delivered to meet Foster Yeoman's requirement of 95% service availability
The 59s' first decade in fact achieved an astonishing 99.8% availability. Figures way ahead of any other UK diesel class.
Whilst I don't doubt they had better availability than UK built locos they also likely had a different maintenance regime which must have helped to some degree?
Some of the issues with UK locos were BR not listening to manufacturers and believe the 17s were a victim of this? Was realised early on that the aluminium cylinder heads weren't up to job and manufacturer recommended using cast iron instead but BR said no?
 

D1537

Established Member
Joined
11 Jul 2019
Messages
2,105
Location
North Yorkshire
Multiple sources I've read over the years, cited the class 59 was delivered to meet Foster Yeoman's requirement of 95% service availability
The 59s' first decade in fact achieved an astonishing 99.8% availability. Figures way ahead of any other UK diesel class.
99.8% availability suggests that each locomotive was only unavailable for 15 hours a year, which seems unlikely. Perhaps the figures do not count scheduled maintenance.
 

Sun Chariot

Established Member
Joined
16 Mar 2009
Messages
6,779
Location
2 miles and 50 years away from the Longmoor Milita

mike57

Established Member
Joined
13 Mar 2015
Messages
2,408
Location
East coast of Yorkshire
As a side thought, assuming class 17s replaced steam, am I right in assuming that a total failure of a steam engine was less common, that they would just get slower/less powerful, but still complete the journey where as a diesel failure tends to be a total failure.
 

Samantha H

Member
Joined
1 Dec 2024
Messages
6
Location
Melbourne
As a side thought, assuming class 17s replaced steam, am I right in assuming that a total failure of a steam engine was less common, that they would just get slower/less powerful, but still complete the journey where as a diesel failure tends to be a total failure.
Really depends but there are a lot of issues you'll just make worse by soldiering on which can represent a bigger turnarount on any repair so it's best in either case to stop. A lot of things you should stop for at the nearest convenient point due to safety reasons may also be overlooked by some since there was no real recording method of when the fault developed so you could just say it happened towards the end of the trip in some cases. People were not and even today are not always as professional as we may imagine hence the presence of recording devices these days to keep an eye on what is going on.

Probably need to duck for the rotten fruit flying for bringing railwaymen into disrepute but we all know it to be true, we all know these things happened.
 

Taunton

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Aug 2013
Messages
12,347
With all types you can maybe keep going. Failure of the train heating boiler just leading to a cold train being an example for diesels. If there's no boilersmith do you then stop it as unavailable, or just roster it on freight? One would have thought that a twin engine design like the Claytons would be more capable of doing so - on the WR one of the upsides crews spoke of with twin-engined Warships/Westerns compared to Class 47/50 was the ability to do this.
 

Big Jumby 74

Established Member
Joined
12 Feb 2022
Messages
2,256
Location
UK
As a side thought, assuming class 17s replaced steam, am I right in assuming that a total failure of a steam engine was less common, that they would just get slower/less powerful, but still complete the journey where as a diesel failure tends to be a total failure.
As said above, would depend upon circumstances. Two major steam related failures of some magnitude that spring to mind from memory of reading about same, are one involving MN 35020 at Crewkerne, when a bent/detached con rod caused a major failure, and some parts (of the motion of the loco) flew off and demolished part of the station canopy as the train passed. The other was a blow back involving an 8F (48660???) running southbound at Midsomer Norton, when (to put it simply) the footplate was engulfed in boiling steam/water and the crew, who I think both survived, suffered horrendous scalding/burns as a result. As said, this is from memory of reading of same, so I can't be more detailed at this moment.
 

Magdalia

Established Member
Joined
1 Jan 2022
Messages
7,443
Location
The Fens
With all types you can maybe keep going.
That's not always the case. On a diesel locomotive the cooling system may shut down the power unit to prevent serious damage from overheating. Auxiliary equipment failures such as compressors or exhausters can prevent release of the brakes.
 

matchmaker

Established Member
Joined
8 Mar 2009
Messages
1,890
Location
Central Scotland
Whilst I don't doubt they had better availability than UK built locos they also likely had a different maintenance regime which must have helped to some degree?
Some of the issues with UK locos were BR not listening to manufacturers and believe the 17s were a victim of this? Was realised early on that the aluminium cylinder heads weren't up to job and manufacturer recommended using cast iron instead but BR said no?
Was it not the crankcases rather than the heads?
 

Rescars

Established Member
Joined
25 May 2021
Messages
2,605
Location
Surrey
As a side thought, assuming class 17s replaced steam, am I right in assuming that a total failure of a steam engine was less common, that they would just get slower/less powerful, but still complete the journey where as a diesel failure tends to be a total failure.
For some ideas on what used to be possible, the section on valves in the BTC Handbook for Railway Steam Locomotive Enginemen is instructive. Lots of Q&As about how to deal with breakages and other failures of various fundamental parts of valve gear etc, mainly with the aim of being able to continue operating with the loco working on one side only. Anything to avoid having to summon another loco for assistance!
 

Merle Haggard

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2019
Messages
3,991
Location
Northampton
For some ideas on what used to be possible, the section on valves in the BTC Handbook for Railway Steam Locomotive Enginemen is instructive. Lots of Q&As about how to deal with breakages and other failures of various fundamental parts of valve gear etc, mainly with the aim of being able to continue operating with the loco working on one side only. Anything to avoid having to summon another loco for assistance!

I've an L.N.E.R. Enginemans' Manual to cover breakdowns. I was interested in the method to be adopted when a tender spring breaks. 'Find suitable wood at the lineside' and 'using suitable rope' were involved - the method was to insert the wood under the wheel beneath the broken spring and then move forward so that the wheel rises. Then rope the axle up in that lifted position. Simple.
 

Rescars

Established Member
Joined
25 May 2021
Messages
2,605
Location
Surrey
I've an L.N.E.R. Enginemans' Manual to cover breakdowns. I was interested in the method to be adopted when a tender spring breaks. 'Find suitable wood at the lineside' and 'using suitable rope' were involved - the method was to insert the wood under the wheel beneath the broken spring and then move forward so that the wheel rises. Then rope the axle up in that lifted position. Simple.
BTC is instructive about using a spare fishplate or even a coal pick to lift a loco sufficiently to enable packing to be inserted above an axlebox where a spring has been broken or lost. It is suggested that this type of field surgery is only carried out if the problem occurs at "a considerable distance" from an MPD, and then ideally under the protection of fixed signals. I haven't found anything for tender wheels yet.....
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top