Lack of train crew on Great Northern?

[dk1]

I think yesterday morning was a visit London for day trip Saturday - the 1000 service from Norwich to Liverpool St. was reported as full and standing from Stowmarket for example !!

Nearly every Norwich train was similar with many standing before Manningtree up Road yesterday morning. Bearing in mind there are over 700 seats on these 745s it’s quite amazing how full they are these days. It took almost 3 minutes at Stratford to board the 18:37 passengers last night as the train was almost full from Liverpool St without the several hundred waiting to board there.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Dec 2024 ==

At the other end of the route what with Christmas shoppers and football, Norwich station was buzzing all day long.

 

[philthetube]

We get our block leave allocated well in advance and some people have worse times than others and spread evenly. As for ad hoc days only a a few are allowed and it gets declined if too many request it and they can't cover the work.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Dec 2024 ==

I know this, I was responding to post suggesting that you should have to take your hols at quiet times of the year.

 

[gm671]

It will be 'interesting' to see what GN manage to run next weekend - other than the Remembrance Sunday weekend, it is the first time they *should* be running a full weekend service since September. Let's see.

Issues were caused by shortages TL side this weekend. Plenty of spare on the GN, with CBG and PBO drivers being taxied down to FPK to work services south through the core.

 

[Intercity_225]

16:14, 16:22, 16:30, 16:33, 16:52, 17:07, 17:17, 17:47, 17:52 and the 18:09 all cancelled this evening at Finsbury Park. I dread to think the overcrowding today..

 

[bramling]

16:14, 16:22, 16:30, 16:33, 16:52, 17:07, 17:17, 17:47, 17:52 and the 18:09 all cancelled this evening at Finsbury Park. I dread to think the overcrowding today..

This morning was a shambles as well, though that was caused by a 700 sitting down at Ashwell & Morden for 3 hours. The GN’s post-2018 lack of resilience showed through again, the whole Cambridge branch might as well have been left to its own devices for the whole 3 hours, and Kings Lynn didn’t fare much better. Some massive gaps in the service right across the GN network served by Cambridge trains.

 

[MikeWM]

This morning was a shambles as well, though that was caused by a 700 sitting down at Ashwell & Morden for 3 hours. The GN’s post-2018 lack of resilience showed through again, the whole Cambridge branch might as well have been left to its own devices for the whole 3 hours, and Kings Lynn didn’t fare much better. Some massive gaps in the service right across the GN network served by Cambridge trains.

As usual, they *claimed* to have set up a Cambridge-Kings Lynn shuttle, though the 2-hour gap in southbound trains from Ely (0948, 1018, 1046 all cancelled) shows that this was just about as successful as whenever else they've claimed to do that recently during disruption. I'm sure they used to be able to set up a shuttle that actually worked at fairly short notice, but now it seems they just say they have without actually managing to do so.

Fortunately the GA Norwich-Stansted services came to the rescue as usual, else I'd have been *extremely* late for work. Oddly the 1028 off Ely was showing as 'delayed - due to a bicycle on the track' the whole time until it was about 1 minute away from the station, but fortunately there are other ways nowadays of working out that the train was on time and that message was probably nonsense.

Though not to sing GA's praises too much - as is seemingly the norm at that time in the morning nowadays, Ely ticket office wasn't open. I do sometimes wonder what the point was in going to all that effort to save ticket offices if they are never actually open...

All in all, a rather tedious commute to start the week.

 

[wagnaga]

As usual, they *claimed* to have set up a Cambridge-Kings Lynn shuttle, though the 2-hour gap in southbound trains from Ely (0948, 1018, 1046 all cancelled) shows that this was just about as successful as whenever else they've claimed to do that recently during disruption. I'm sure they used to be able to set up a shuttle that actually worked at fairly short notice, but now it seems they just say they have without actually managing to do so.

I wonder if the Kings Lynn - Cambridge shuttle is harder to deliver because there is less joining and splitting of trains at Cambridge and so less stock and drivers available? Previously they'd have routinely had stock going into sidings but now as I understand the entire train usually runs the enitre length of Kings Lynn to Kings Cross.

 

[Magdalia]

As usual, they *claimed* to have set up a Cambridge-Kings Lynn shuttle

If you look at RTT you will see that there was a Cambridge-Kings Lynn shuttle. 0639/0842/0942/1142 ex Kings Cross all started at Cambridge, with the 1042 running through from Kings Cross. The 0602 from Kings Cross ran to Ely running very late so started the 0812 from Kings Lynn there at 0848.

this was just about as successful as whenever else they've claimed to do that recently during disruption.

I'd say what they achieved was a success.

 

[MikeWM]

If you look at RTT you will see that there was a Cambridge-Kings Lynn shuttle. 0639/0842/0942/1142 ex Kings Cross all started at Cambridge, with the 1042 running through from Kings Cross.

The problem there is the missing 0739 from Kings Cross, ie. 0835 from Cambridge. That gap meant nothing was at Kings Lynn to form the 0942, ie. the 1018 from Ely. With the cancellations of the Ely terminators immediately before and after, that left a 2 hour gap in Ely->Cambridge GN services, which isn't really a 'shuttle' in my definition of the word. Yes, there are alternate services between Cambridge and Ely, but without GN there is nothing for Waterbeach and only 1tph for Cambridge North, which was where I was trying to go.

I'd say what they achieved was a success.

I'm afraid that I really don't count cancelling 3 trains in a row, leaving a 2 hour gap in a 2tph service, a 'success'.

 

[arb]

From RTT, it looks to me like they did OK (not brilliantly) for a Kings Lynn to Cambridge shuttle. That service is normally hourly (off-peak), and they ran it pretty much hourly, with the odd cancellation here and there. That must happen from time to time on a normal day.

What they didn't manage this morning was a decent Ely to Cambridge shuttle, which is normally also hourly, in the alternate half-hour to the Kings Lynn service, so 2tph from Ely in total. At one point there were three cancellations in a row for services scheduled to start in Ely, which also happened to coincide with one of the Kings Lynn cancellations, meaning 1 GN train from Ely in a 2.5 hour period. That's much much worse than the usual GN service from Ely.

I wasn't travelling today so I don't know what the actual messaging to passengers was, but if it was that they were running a "Kings Lynn to Cambridge shuttle" then cynical me would say that's a very carefully worded claim. Many people might assume that a "Kings Lynn to Cambridge shuttle" means "the normal service north of Cambridge", but the actual wording makes no mention of the services that usually start/end in Ely.

 

[whoosh]

Though not to sing GA's praises too much - as is seemingly the norm at that time in the morning nowadays, Ely ticket office wasn't open. I do sometimes wonder what the point was in going to all that effort to save ticket offices if they are never actually open...

I know it's not GA or GN, but rumour has it that Euston's ticket office has something like a 46 line roster, but over 20 lines are 'Vacancy', which is a large amount not to fill.

Wonder if that is replicated elsewhere in the country if true?

 

[Magdalia]

I wasn't travelling today so I don't know what the actual messaging to passengers was, but if it was that they were running a "Kings Lynn to Cambridge shuttle" then cynical me would say that's a very carefully worded claim. Many people might assume that a "Kings Lynn to Cambridge shuttle" means "the normal service north of Cambridge", but the actual wording makes no mention of the services that usually start/end in Ely.

A Cambridge-Kings Lynn shuttle does what it says on the tin. It doesn't commit to the Ely terminators, which are difficult to cover and not very effective use of train crew at times of disruption south of Cambridge. The Cambridge-Ely trains are always going to be lower priority than the hourly Cambridge-Kings Lynn shuttle. If you compare what Cambridge-Kings Lynn got yesterday morning with what happened Cambridge-Hitchin then you will see that the service there virtually disappeared, and the few trains that ran were far less predictable.

The problem there is the missing 0739 from Kings Cross, ie. 0835 from Cambridge.

So that was obvious at 0835. It was one two hour gap in what was otherwise an hourly service. That gave you time to make alternative plans to travel earlier or later to dodge the 2 hour gap. When I was commuting we didn't have the luxury of real time train running at our fingertips. Now I don't leave the house to catch a train without checking RTT to see what's running first.

 

[bramling]

A Cambridge-Kings Lynn shuttle does what it says on the tin. It doesn't commit to the Ely terminators, which are difficult to cover and not very effective use of train crew at times of disruption south of Cambridge. The Cambridge-Ely trains are always going to be lower priority than the hourly Cambridge-Kings Lynn shuttle. If you compare what Cambridge-Kings Lynn got yesterday morning with what happened Cambridge-Hitchin then you will see that the service there virtually disappeared, and the few trains that ran were far less predictable.


So that was obvious at 0835. It was one two hour gap in what was otherwise an hourly service. That gave you time to make alternative plans to travel earlier or later to dodge the 2 hour gap. When I was commuting we didn't have the luxury of real time train running at our fingertips. Now I don't leave the house to catch a train without checking RTT to see what's running first.

It’s quite sad to reflect that in FCC days, there generally wasn’t a need to be checking apps before travelling. On weekdays at least, you turned up at the station and the train ran.

By constant, over the last week I when I used GN/TL almost every weekday I don’t think a journey has passed without being affected by some problem or other, either to my intended service or a preceding one.

The Hitchin to Cambridge service yesterday morning was appalling. Now it’s reasonable to accept they had a failed 700 at Ashwell, but this would still have allowed a service to/from Baldock, as well as to/from Royston. Baldock got nothing in the up direction, whilst Letchworth and Royston fared very little better. And to rub salt on wound, I gather (though unconfirmed) that a trainload of up passengers were dumped at Royston where their train was terminated and run back ECS to Cambridge.

 

[MikeWM]

So that was obvious at 0835. It was one two hour gap in what was otherwise an hourly service. That gave you time to make alternative plans to travel earlier or later to dodge the 2 hour gap.

I was still asleep in bed at 0835, so I'm not sure how that would have helped. By the time I was awake and checked what was running, it was too late to get the 0917 or indeed (just) the 0931. And later isn't especially helpful in this case - unless my work are happy with me showing up over an hour late, which I'd rather not have to find out.

Yes, maybe I should get up earlier every single day to see if they've cancelled the 0948 and/or 1018 yet again. But we've come to a right state if you have to get out of bed 30 minutes early every day *just in case* three trains in a row are cancelled. Even then they're not usually listed as cancelled until pretty much when they are due to run, even if it is apparent a long time before that they literally can't run because a preceding train hasn't got to where it needs to be - so you have to also use RTT and Traksy every morning to try to work out whether trains listed as running are actually going to do so. That's hardly a satisfactory state of affairs.

Most of us accept that sometimes things go a bit wrong. But eg. the 0948 has been cancelled 4 out of the last 12 weekdays - that's an awful record. I don't recall anything remotely like that level of unreliability on a weekday prior to May 2018.

 

[Magdalia]

I don't recall anything remotely like that level of unreliability on a weekday prior to May 2018.

That's because the service was a lot more reliable before 2018!

I was predicting a collapse in reliability when the Thameslink 2018 changes were still in the planning stages, and one of my reasons for moving house before 2018 was to give me better access to the Liverpool Street route as an alternative. At least we never got the Cambridge-Maidstone nightmare.

But eg. the 0948 has been cancelled 4 out of the last 12 weekdays

It could be that there is a specific vulnerability for that train, I recall a relatively recent occasion where it started from Cambridge at 1014.

Even then they're not usually listed as cancelled until pretty much when they are due to run, even if it is apparent a long time before that they literally can't run because a preceding train hasn't got to where it needs to be - so you have to also use RTT and Traksy every morning to try to work out whether trains listed as running are actually going to do so. That's hardly a satisfactory state of affairs.

I agree it is not satisfactory, but the information is there and good decisions come from getting that information, and having the time to act on it. My commuting life would have been a lot easier with access to the information available to the commuters of today.

 

[Magdalen Road]

Well I was on thes KLN - KGX service behind the failed unit yesterday morning. We were eventually turfed off at Royston (after sitting outside the station for approx 35 mins) and told to get a train back to Cambridge then use the Liverpool St line. Most of the northbound were cancelled so once we got back to Cambridge, the station staff there were running good comms. The 0745 ran ok, so finally got to work 4.5 hrs after leaving home (an additional 2.5 hrs). My guesstimate is around 30% of people were heading back north from Cambridge rather than attempting the alternative London route. Straw poll from Royston platform was a mix of work from home, annual/Flexi/emergency leave. I had to be in yesterday though!

 

[MikeWM]

That's because the service was a lot more reliable before 2018!

I was predicting a collapse in reliability when the Thameslink 2018 changes were still in the planning stages, and one of my reasons for moving house before 2018 was to give me better access to the Liverpool Street route as an alternative. At least we never got the Cambridge-Maidstone nightmare.

Agree with all of that. One of the reasons I moved to Ely (other than the fact it is a lovely place to live!) was the mix of TOCs and electric/diesel services available, which in combination usually means something is running eventually.

It could be that there is a specific vulnerability for that train, I recall a relatively recent occasion where it started from Cambridge at 1014.

It regularly gets turned short at Cambridge to form the 1014, especially if it is running a little late, though it theoretically has 22 minutes to sit at Ely before forming the 0948 from here, so should only really turn short if it is running considerably late.

I agree it is not satisfactory, but the information is there and good decisions come from getting that information, and having the time to act on it. My commuting life would have been a lot easier with access to the information available to the commuters of today.

Agreed entirely - as per my original post, the tools available also helped me see that the mysterious 'delayed' status on the station PIS to the Norwich-Stansted service wasn't actually real. It would hard to live without such tools now, and I'm very grateful to those who have provided and maintained them - though would be nice to be able to not need them!

--

...so finally got to work 4.5 hrs after leaving home (an additional 2.5 hrs).

This puts my complaints in perspective

 

[Magdalen Road]

It’s quite sad to reflect that in FCC days, there generally wasn’t a need to be checking apps before travelling. On weekdays at least, you turned up at the station and the train ran.

By constant, over the last week I when I used GN/TL almost every weekday I don’t think a journey has passed without being affected by some problem or other, either to my intended service or a preceding one.

The Hitchin to Cambridge service yesterday morning was appalling. Now it’s reasonable to accept they had a failed 700 at Ashwell, but this would still have allowed a service to/from Baldock, as well as to/from Royston. Baldock got nothing in the up direction, whilst Letchworth and Royston fared very little better. And to rub salt on wound, I gather (though unconfirmed) that a trainload of up passengers were dumped at Royston where their train was terminated and run back ECS to Cambridge.

I can confirm the unceremonious dumping did occur, having been one of the dumpees. Though we were a down service (KLN - KGX).

MikeWM fed up doesn't even begin to describe it.

 

[Steve Harris]

I can confirm the unceremonious dumping did occur, having been one of the dumpees. Though we were a down service (KLN - KGX).

I always thought that lines that lead to London were automatically designated UP. So your post has confused me a little, perhaps you can clarify if you was heading to London, or from London ?

 

[MikeWM]

Incoming train to form the 0948 from Ely was 25+ late this morning so I fully expected it to be turned at Cambridge as usual. But, just for once, they kept it running to Ely and had the 0948 leave a few minutes late. Which is what they should normally do, but they usually don't. Still, a pleasant surprise.

Let's see what they manage to do this weekend. I was wrong above about it being a full service though - Ely to Cambridge is closed on Sunday

--

Edit : well, the pleasant surprise lasted all of 9 hours, as they've cancelled the 1839 from Cambridge North to Kings Lynn, stopped short at Cambridge due to no driver, which they only seemed to realise about 5 minites after it was due to depart.

So now there's an empty train blocking platform 1 at Cambridge at a very busy time when all the platforms are needed. Most helpful!

 

[Magdalen Road]

I always thought that lines that lead to London were automatically designated UP. So your post has confused me a little, perhaps you can clarify if you was heading to London, or from London ?

Oh it was going to London, hence KLN - KGX. So yes we were chucked out onto P1, and over to P2 with the glorious lack of Cambridge bound trains.

 

[choochoochoo]

It looks like next Friday 13th could be a bit of a nightmare. Lots of uncovered jobs at certain depots. I’m not sure, but it might coincide with a depot(s) xmas drinks night out, so Saturday morning will be a bit light on crew too if that’s the case.

 

[bramling]

Incoming train to form the 0948 from Ely was 25+ late this morning so I fully expected it to be turned at Cambridge as usual. But, just for once, they kept it running to Ely and had the 0948 leave a few minutes late. Which is what they should normally do, but they usually don't. Still, a pleasant surprise.

Let's see what they manage to do this weekend. I was wrong above about it being a full service though - Ely to Cambridge is closed on Sunday

I suspect the main theme for this weekend’s service will be the weather. Seems like there’s an increasing likelihood of very strong wind gusts on Saturday, and the current consensus seems to be that it’s going to be the south of the country affected.

Won’t be a pretty mixture - severe weather, crew issues and people trying to get to London for Christmas shopping.

 

[Bikeman78]

It looks like next Friday 13th could be a bit of a nightmare. Lots of uncovered jobs at certain depots. I’m not sure, but it might coincide with a depot(s) xmas drinks night out, so Saturday morning will be a bit light on crew too if that’s the case.

My rip off hotel close to King's Cross on that Friday night is now looking like a wise investment!

 

[MikeWM]

I suspect the main theme for this weekend’s service will be the weather. Seems like there’s an increasing likelihood of very strong wind gusts on Saturday, and the current consensus seems to be that it’s going to be the south of the country affected.

Won’t be a pretty mixture - severe weather, crew issues and people trying to get to London for Christmas shopping.

Yes, looks like some very unpleasant wind Friday night/Saturday morning, and quite possibly continuing down south for pretty much most of the weekend. Ugh. Either that's developed quite quickly or I've been paying less attention to the weather models this week than usual - perhaps a bit of both.

Still, GN have been known to blame nasty weather as a cover-up for crew shortages before, so I expect to see something similar this weekend now that they look to have an excuse.

I was going to be away this weekend myself, but I deferred it to next weekend mainly due to continual indecision in making concrete arrangements. Looks like this may have accidentally worked out rather well, this doesn't look at all like a good weekend for travel.

 

[Steve Harris]

Oh it was going to London, hence KLN - KGX.

Hence you saying "down" confused the statement you made. As in fact, you was going up and not down.

Aside of that, being dumped at Royston is not a pleasant experience.

 

[700720]

Yes, looks like some very unpleasant wind Friday night/Saturday morning, and quite possibly continuing down south for pretty much most of the weekend. Ugh. Either that's developed quite quickly or I've been paying less attention to the weather models this week than usual - perhaps a bit of both.

Still, GN have been known to blame nasty weather as a cover-up for crew shortages before, so I expect to see something similar this weekend now that they look to have an excuse.

I was going to be away this weekend myself, but I deferred it to next weekend mainly due to continual indecision in making concrete arrangements. Looks like this may have accidentally worked out rather well, this doesn't look at all like a good weekend for travel.

The wind has led to a so called “split service” on the Kings Lynn, with a supposedly hourly Cambridge - Kings Lynn shuttle and another supposedly hourly Cambridge - Kings Cross direct. I believe Ely - Kings Cross is running as normal but with cancellations.

 

[MikeWM]

The wind has led to a so called “split service” on the Kings Lynn, with a supposedly hourly Cambridge - Kings Lynn shuttle and another supposedly hourly Cambridge - Kings Cross direct. I believe Ely - Kings Cross is running as normal but with cancellations.

Hard to tell how well this is running because RTT seems to be doing the usual thing that it does when we have these shuttles, and only show the Cambridge->Lynn ones, not the ones in the other direction (no idea why). But if RTT is to be believed, the 1035, 1435 and (probably) the 1535 have been cancelled. Still, that's not a lot different from the average Saturday!

 

[Magdalen Road]

It's Monday morning, so the Ely / Cambridge services to Kings Cross are cancelled. There seems to have been an electricity supply problem overnight that was fixed but now loads of trains are cancelled. It's unclear whether this is knock effects or another failure.

 

[Gerard92]

It's Monday morning, so the Ely / Cambridge services to Kings Cross are cancelled. There seems to have been an electricity supply problem overnight that was fixed but now loads of trains are cancelled. It's unclear whether this is knock effects or another failure.

Someone threw a motorbike on to the earthing cable at Hitchin last night which has resulted in a reduction of services to alleviate stress on the power supply in the area