Was given an MG11. Worried about history

[AlterEgo]

I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise, but these are the actual losses that they appear to have suffered, and those which would be recoverable upon conviction. (And they wouldn't be able to convict him of the earlier offences.)

Unless they used the Fraud Act for short faring.

that's not exactly the same, at all.

Firstly you've asserted that he was prosecuted under the Fraud Act, but the article doesn't suggest that at all.

The FCA banned him and the judgment against him outlined that it was because of his fraud conviction.

Finally, while there's no suggestion that he was charged with fraud, it certainly appears to go a lot further towards meeting that description than what we see here:

How about this barrister who pled guilty to short faring and admitted fraud by false representation?

Fare-dodging barrister sentenced https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-34403023

Classic short faring.

Could you elaborate more on how or why you think short faring is “not a fraud”? That seems very certain, and not in line with some higher profile cases we have seen here.

We're talking about ~£50 in lost revenue vs. £2964, and apparently one case of going on beyond his stop and the rest appearing to be cases where he worked at the station platform one stop along .

No, there are lots of instances where the OP cannot find evidence of where they were and the TOC is not likely to charitably believe the short faring was always just for £1. The amount for those is over £800 claimed by the TOC, as evidenced by the sums in their spreadsheet.

Prosecutions under the Fraud Act are rare, but it’s not £50 in question here and they do happen. The OP may find themselves settling for something in the region of £800, even to avoid a single Bylaw or RoRA offence- and it may well be in their interests to do so.

 

[soil]

Unless they used the Fraud Act for short faring.


The FCA banned him and the judgment against him outlined that it was because of his fraud conviction.

Are you sure?

You've provided no evidence for this and he doesn't appear on their list.

NewRegister

register.fca.org.uk

How about this barrister who pled guilty to short faring and admitted fraud by false representation?

Fare-dodging barrister sentenced https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-34403023

Classic short faring.

No.

Lawyer who dodged rail fares lied about address

AN international lawyer dodged paying more than £23,000 in train fares over two-and-a-half years by saying he lived in Wembley, a court heard Dr…

www.oxfordmail.co.uk

AN international lawyer dodged paying more than £23,000 in train fares over two-and-a-half years by saying he lived in Wembley, a court heard Dr Peter Barnett, of Whittle Road, Thame, regularly escaped paying for the journey between Thame and London by using a doctored photo-card, the prosecution said.

Several obvious differences

* the deception of the doctored photocard
* the actual loss of £6k
* the not having a ticket for any part of the journey

Could you elaborate more on how or why you think short faring is “not a fraud”? That seems very certain, and not in line with some higher profile cases we have seen here.

Firstly you need to define 'short faring'.

OP boards a train at Northampton with a ticket to Wolverton (Milton Keynes North), but gets off at Milton Keynes Central. Train stops at the stations on his ticket. He has a valid ticket for part of his journey. He did nothing wrong when he boarded the train at Northampton, until he travelled beyond Wolverton. This becomes offence under s 5(3)(b), but it's clearly not fraud. It would be much more reasonable to argue someone using a £2 ticket to the next stop to get through the barriers to board a £100 long-distance train might be fraud, but that isn't what happened here.

 

[AlterEgo]

No.

Why not? Explain.

Firstly you need to define 'short faring'.

Buying a ticket for part of the journey but making a longer one.

OP boards a train at Northampton with a ticket to Wolverton (Milton Keynes North), but gets off at Milton Keynes Central. Train stops at the stations on his ticket. He has a valid ticket for part of his journey. He did nothing wrong when he boarded the train at Northampton, until he travelled beyond Wolverton. This becomes offence under s 5(3)(b), but it's clearly not fraud.

Why not?

It would be much more reasonable to argue someone using a £2 ticket to the next stop to get through the barriers to board a £100 long-distance train might be fraud, but that isn't what happened here.

Why would that be reasonable? Because of the value of the ticket involved?

Note that many of the journeys relating to the OP here are, in fact, quite expensive, at £70+ each. Not that it matters whether the offence involves a pound or seventy of them.

 

[soil]

Why not? Explain.


Buying a ticket for part of the journey but making a longer one.


Why not?


Why would that be reasonable? Because of the value of the ticket involved?

Note that many of the journeys relating to the OP here are, in fact, quite expensive, at £70+ each. Not that it matters whether the offence involves a pound or seventy of them.

I don't need to explain anything. You're claiming it's fraud but have failed to prove that.

The OP's tickets are in fact not £70+ each. The TOC have one case where he travelled from Bletchley to Euston without a ticket, avoiding an SDS from Bletchley to Euston of £24.30. They cannot evidence anything beyond that.

OP may well admit to things, and the TOC may well then say "you must pay us £800 or we'll prosecute you for not having the £24.30 ticket from Bletchley to Euston [and maybe things he admits to them later]", but that's the only thing they can charge him for at this point.

 

[AlterEgo]

I don't need to explain anything. You're claiming it's fraud but have failed to prove that.

Well, you do. You’re saying it definitely isn’t, and need to prove that.

That you were presented with a short faring offence prosecuted as fraud by false representation was inconvenient and you are now refusing to elaborate. I’ll leave it there as we’re off topic. I think the OP has more than enough to go on.

 

[soil]

Well, you do. You’re saying it definitely isn’t, and need to prove that.

That you were presented with a short faring offence prosecuted as fraud by false representation was inconvenient and you are now refusing to elaborate. I’ll leave it there as we’re off topic. I think the OP has more than enough to go on.

?
You provided two cases:
1. one which doesn't appear to have been charged as fraud
2. another where someone used a variety of instruments including a doctored photocard to save about £6k, and was convicted of fraud

and you're saying that somehow this means that travelling a stop beyond your ticket might be fraud, rather than RoRA, and I have to show otherwise.... Not sure what there is to elaborate on really.

 

[jamie123400]

Thank you everyone for your input I am extremely grateful. I have reduced this down to the following routes, (these are only drafted responses)

Option 1: Accept All and Ask for a Repayment Plan

Dear

Thank you for your response.
As a student receiving Disabled Students' Allowance (DSA) and currently experiencing financial hardship, I am working with StepChange to establish a manageable payment plan based on my affordability.

Given my circumstances, I kindly request to arrange monthly repayments of [amount], (please see attached income and expenditure) which I can realistically maintain without jeopardising my essential living costs.

Thank you for your understanding, and I deeply regret any inconvenience caused by my actions.

Yours faithfully,

Option 2: Accept Some but Dispute All Valid Tickets and Request to Submit

Dear [Recipient],

Thank you for your response. I have only managed to find evidence for some of these transactions.

Could I kindly ask if you would be willing to consider the following evidence to support my claims:​

• Text messages​
• Bank statements​
• Email confirmations for appointments, events, or taxi bookings​

Given my circumstances, I kindly request to arrange monthly repayments of [amount], (please see attached income and expenditure) which I can realistically maintain without jeopardizing my essential living cost
I am eager to provide any additional information you may require and work with you to resolve this matter promptly.
Thank you for your time and understanding.
Yours faithfully,​

Option 3: Accept Some and Provide Supporting Evidence

Dear [Recipient],
Thank you for your response. I have only managed to find evidence for some of these transactions.:​

• [List of evidence provided, e.g., bank statements, appointment confirmations]​

I hope this demonstrates my efforts to clarify the situation. Please let me know if additional documentation or clarification is required.
I sincerely regret any confusion caused and am committed to resolving this matter responsibly.
Yours faithfully,​

Option 4: Admit All and Clarify

Dear [Recipient],
I am writing to provide a detailed account of the transactions and journeys in question. I take full responsibility for my actions and deeply regret my lack of diligence in ensuring proper fare payment.
Upon reviewing my records, I have outlined the following:​

• [List each transaction, indicating whether a valid ticket was held and any other relevant details]​

I have been struggling with ADHD and other psychiatric challenges, which have occasionally affected my ability to manage daily tasks, including travel arrangements. As a student under financial hardship, I am also working with StepChange to develop a repayment plan that aligns with my affordability. Given my circumstances, I kindly request to arrange monthly repayments of [amount], (please see attached income and expenditure) which I can realistically maintain without jeopardizing my essential living cost
I am committed to making amends and ensuring this does not happen again. Please let me know how best to proceed.
Yours faithfully,

Still wondering which route to go down, any input is much appreciated​

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Dec 2024 ==

This is an updated spreadsheet if anyone wants to see

Date	From	To	Ticket price Amount	Evidence of presence in MK	Extra Info
21/09/2022 12:25	Northampton	Bletchley	65.8	Valid ticket Please see attachment 21/09/22 Evidence
21/11/2022 07:38	Northampton	Bletchley	65.8	Valid ticket Please see attachment
02/12/2023 12:18	Northampton	Wolverton	68.3	Valid ticket Please see attached
02/12/2023 12:18	Northampton	Bletchley	68.3	Valid ticket Please see attached
29/12/2023 19:16	Northampton	Wolverton	68.3	Valid ticket
02/02/2024 19:48	Northampton	Bletchley	75.8	Valid ticket See text message and attachment
23/03/2024 13:18	Northampton	Bletchley	75.8	Valid ticket, please see attached
09/07/2024 11:18	Northampton	Milton Keynes Central	75.8	Valid ticket Please see attached
09/07/2024 22:02	Bletchley	Milton Keynes Central	75.8	Valid ticket attached
13/07/2024 19:46	Northampton	Bletchley	75.8	Valid ticket Please see text message and receipt
20/07/2024 13:48	Northampton	Bletchley	75.8	Valid ticket Please see bank screenshot
12/10/2024 11:18	Northampton	Bletchley	75.8	Valid ticket

 

[Pushpit]

If I've understood correctly (and I can understand why you may want to shade some details) then option 4 is the most honest and thus most provable outcome (?). The catch here is that rail companies aren't usually too keen on repayment plans, with occasional exceptions. At best they look for a decent upfront sum. I think the letter wording is good - concise, explains things, not repetitive - but maybe the last sentence about "not happening again". If there is anything specific you can add here, in terms of (e.g.) committing to tapping in and out, and if your recent travel history shows this, that may help.

The very small piece of leverage you have is that if it ends up in court anyway then the court may well allow a payment plan, and you can also have a dialogue with the court if you find yourself unable to pay a particular month. The court, naturally, ensures its costs and fines are covered. I strongly suspect that rail companies end up not getting all they want, and certainly not getting it quickly, so there is a tiny incentive on LNW to head off that scenario. Also in court you may be able to plea that instead of using "Anytime Singles" as their compensation base, they should use the actual cheapest ticket open to you, including railcards and take into account the amounts you have paid. I've no idea if that will work and will require some careful wording in court, but if you can show you worked with LNW on option 4 before the court case, the train company is, in my view, in a weaker position on that particular point.

 

[soil]

It's a tough one, I wonder if you can say something like:

I am writing in reply to your enquiry about possible short fare evasion.

I understand that this follows the events of 23rd October 2024, where I travelled from Northampton to Euston on a ticket valid between Northampton to Bletchley, and an analysis of my ticketing history

Further to your enquiry, I would like to advise you that on a number of occasions between September 2022 and October 2023, I travelled between Northampton and Milton Keynes Central, sometimes as a single journey (I got a lift from my mother), and sometimes as a return, on tickets from Northampton to Wolverton, or Wolverton to Northampton. This was possible because I worked on the station platform at Milton Keynes Central, in the café.

For the other journeys that you have listed in your spreadsheet I did not travel beyond the station on my ticket. Where possible, I have given an account of my whereabouts for these days (see attached spreadsheet), with evidence to support this. In some cases, I have not been able to find any supporting evidence, however, I am confident that these are the only occasions where I was involved in short fare evasion, and I hope that you will accept my explanation.

I would like to apologise for my actions, which are illegal, and I can promise you that I have learned from this experience, which I have found to be very difficult to handle, as I have ADHD, and that I will not do this again.

I am a student and have very limited finances, but would like to settle this matter to avoid the need for any court proceedings.

In view of this, I wonder if you would be willing to accept a settlement based on the amount of fare that I avoided, being the fare from Bletchley to Euston on 23rd October, x return fares from Wolverton to Milton Keynes Central, and y single fares between Milton Keynes Central to Wolverton.

Thank you.

 

[jamie123400]

It's a tough one, I wonder if you can say something like:

I am writing in reply to your enquiry about possible short fare evasion.

I understand that this follows the events of 23rd October 2024, where I travelled from Northampton to Euston on a ticket valid between Northampton to Bletchley, and an analysis of my ticketing history

Further to your enquiry, I would like to advise you that on a number of occasions between September 2022 and October 2023, I travelled between Northampton and Milton Keynes Central, sometimes as a single journey (I got a lift from my mother), and sometimes as a return, on tickets from Northampton to Wolverton, or Wolverton to Northampton. This was possible because I worked on the station platform at Milton Keynes Central, in the café.

For the other journeys that you have listed in your spreadsheet I did not travel beyond the station on my ticket. Where possible, I have given an account of my whereabouts for these days (see attached spreadsheet), with evidence to support this. In some cases, I have not been able to find any supporting evidence, however, I am confident that these are the only occasions where I was involved in short fare evasion, and I hope that you will accept my explanation.

I would like to apologise for my actions, which are illegal, and I can promise you that I have learned from this experience, which I have found to be very difficult to handle, as I have ADHD, and that I will not do this again.

I am a student and have very limited finances, but would like to settle this matter to avoid the need for any court proceedings.

In view of this, I wonder if you would be willing to accept a settlement based on the amount of fare that I avoided, being the fare from Bletchley to Euston on 23rd October, x return fares from Wolverton to Milton Keynes Central, and y single fares between Milton Keynes Central to Wolverton.

Thank you.

I don't have evidence I worked in the cafe from September onwards

 

[Haywain]

I don't have evidence I worked in the cafe from September onwards

You may not have evidence but at this stage you have to scrupulously honest about what you were doing. If you were really working in the cafe on the station then you will have been known to the WMR station management team and the cafe management who might well vouch for that. And if you were not, that further dishonesty will come back to bite you.

 

[WesternLancer]

I don't have evidence I worked in the cafe from September onwards

Not got any payslips or payment from the cafe operator into a bank account?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Dec 2024 ==

Ref payment plans. We know they are rarely offered but I can’t see any harm in asking for one.

 

[jamie123400]

I did stop working at the cafe after that time. I think all of the September tickets I was working there.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Dec 2024 ==

You may not have evidence but at this stage you have to scrupulously honest about what you were doing. If you were really working in the cafe on the station then you will have been known to the WMR station management team and the cafe management who might well vouch for that. And if you were not, that further dishonesty will come back to bite you.

I don't understand. I have evidence of employment there.

 

[WesternLancer]

I don't have evidence I worked in the cafe from September onwards

So this is a typo then? When you say you do not have evidence.

 

[jamie123400]

So this is a typo then? When you say you do not have evidence.

A misunderstanding, I left the cafe after September.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Dec 2024 ==

Another draft.

I am writing in reply to your enquiry about possible short fare evasion.

I understand that this follows the events of 23rd October 2024, where I travelled from Northampton to Euston on a ticket valid between Northampton to Bletchley, and an analysis of my ticketing history

Further to your enquiry, I would like to advise you that on a number of occasions between September 2022 and [October 2023][not sure if I should add], I travelled between Northampton and Milton Keynes Central, sometimes as a single journey (I got a lift from my mother), and sometimes as a return, on tickets from Northampton to Wolverton, or Wolverton to Northampton. This was possible because I worked on the station platform at Milton Keynes Central, in the café.

For the other journeys that you have listed in your spreadsheet I did not travel beyond the station on my ticket. Where possible, I have given an account of my whereabouts for these days (see attached spreadsheet), with evidence to support this. In some cases, I have not been able to find any supporting evidence, however, I am confident that these are the only occasions where I was involved in short fare evasion, and I hope that you will accept my explanation.

I would like to apologise for my actions, which are illegal, and I can promise you that I have learned from this experience, which I have found to be very difficult to handle, as I have ADHD and other psychiatric difficulties. I have been recently been put on a NHS treatment plan to improve my functioning.

As a DSA student with limited finances, i and currently experiencing financial hardship, I am working with StepChange to establish a manageable payment plan based on my affordability.

Given my circumstances, I kindly request to arrange monthly repayments of an agreed amount, which I can realistically maintain without jeopardising my essential living costs. I hope to settle this matter to avoid the need for any court proceedings.

In view of this, I wonder if you would be willing to accept a settlement based on the amount of fare that I avoided,
[being the fare from Bletchley to Euston on 23rd October, x return fares from Wolverton to Milton Keynes Central, and y single fares between Milton Keynes Central to Wolverton.] Still don't know whether to add this.

 

[AlterEgo]

I think the problem is you are thinking of asking WMT, who, having caught you red handed attempting to short fare to London (and attempting to cover it up by buying a ticket when you saw the revenue team), are not likely to believe this was the first time you did this, and all the other short fares were just one station saving one pound. This is especially the case when you have clear evidence you were in Milton Keynes some of the time, but none, in fact, for many other occasions.

It is in your interests at this stage to be honest and stop worrying about four different strategies for admitting things.

 

[jamie123400]

I think the problem is you are thinking of asking WMT, who, having caught you red handed attempting to short fare to London (and attempting to cover it up by buying a ticket when you saw the revenue team), are not likely to believe this was the first time you did this, and all the other short fares were just one station saving one pound. This is especially the case when you have clear evidence you were in Milton Keynes some of the time, but none, in fact, for many other occasions.

It is in your interests at this stage to be honest and stop worrying about four different strategies for admitting things.

I could add this?:

Can I ask for clarification on how these journeys have been calculated? As for many of the aforementioned transactions the furtherest I travelled was Northampton - Bletchley and not to Euston, I can provide further information on my whereabouts that explain these transactions.

 

[AlterEgo]

I could add this?:

Can I ask for clarification on how these journeys have been calculated? As for many of the aforementioned transactions the furtherest I travelled was Northampton - Bletchley and not to Euston, I can provide further information on my whereabouts that explain these transactions.

They're assuming you went to London, the place you were caught. I think that much seems to be obvious here.

You also cannot provide evidence for all of the instances so I wouldn't invite the question. One thing which is not clear here is what is actually true - are there really no other London journeys? If there aren't you should not admit to them. If there are, you should come clean and just be honest.

 

[jamie123400]

They're assuming you went to London, the place you were caught. I think that much seems to be obvious here.

You also cannot provide evidence for all of the instances so I wouldn't invite the question. One thing which is not clear here is what is actually true - are there really no other London journeys? If there aren't you should not admit to them. If there are, you should come clean and just be honest.

I counted about 8 of the transactions might have been to London. I cannot recall entirely.

As for many of the aforementioned transactions the furtherest I travelled was Northampton - Bletchley and not to Euston, I can provide further information on my whereabouts that explain these transactions. For others that have no explanation, or evidence, I am willing to pay the full fares for my mistakes.

 

[AlterEgo]

I counted about 8 of the transactions might have been to London. I cannot recall entirely.

As for many of the aforementioned transactions the furtherest I travelled was Northampton - Bletchley and not to Euston, I can provide further information on my whereabouts that explain these transactions. For others that have no explanation, or evidence, I am willing to pay the full fares for my mistakes.

Then you basically need to:

- Provide evidence for presence in MK on the dates you can find, and
- accept you will have to settle for the full fares to London on the other occasions.

There's no point trying to strategise or game things from here. They - and others here - would guess full well it wasn't your first time trying it to London so I think your honesty with them will go some way to reaching settlement.

 

[Hadders]

I have ADHD and other psychiatric difficulties. I have been recently been put on a NHS treatment plan to improve my functioning.

If you want to rely on this then I suggest enclosing proof of your diagnosis from a Medical Expert in the relevant field.

 

[jamie123400]

I provided diagnostic letter for that, and also NHS letters explaining my psychiatric history.

Will keep everyone updated, still waiting to hear back.

 

[jamie123400]

Update: Very good result

Thank you everyone for your help and I am extremely grateful to all members and admin team for creating such a helpful community.

The matter is being settled out of court, and after supplying evidence the total got reduced to £1005 including admin fees.

I have managed to negotiate a 9-12 month payment plan with the TOC after paying an upfront amount at the end of the month, and did get some casual legal advice from a lawyer friend.

I also want to make note to any readers that my mental health conditions and proof there of was potentially a factor in helping my case. This element was not a 'sob story' but my life and day-to-day struggles. Because of this, I was able to provide many NHS letters of my psychiatric conditions and have the ability to provide more.

Thank you everyone again.

 

[notmyrealname]

Well done, I'm pleased that you've been offered a solution you're happy with.

 

[WesternLancer]

Update: Very good result

Thank you everyone for your help and I am extremely grateful to all members and admin team for creating such a helpful community.

The matter is being settled out of court, and after supplying evidence the total got reduced to £1005 including admin fees.

I have managed to negotiate a 9-12 month payment plan with the TOC after paying an upfront amount at the end of the month, and did get some casual legal advice from a lawyer friend.

I also want to make note to any readers that my mental health conditions and proof there of was potentially a factor in helping my case. This element was not a 'sob story' but my life and day-to-day struggles. Because of this, I was able to provide many NHS letters of my psychiatric conditions and have the ability to provide more.

Thank you everyone again.

This is good news. Thanks for updating. Be sure to keep to the payment plan - that is vital.