Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[OneTrackMinded]

If they continue introducing them at a rate of one each month then they should all be in service by June 2030.

The 455s go off lease at the end of next year, how on earth are they going to have enough 701s to replace them by then at this rate?

 

[Siemens Staines]

The 455s go off lease at the end of next year, how on earth are they going to have enough 701s to replace them by then at this rate?

If that is the case, then the C4 overhauls of 455s at Bournemouth must be ending fairly soon, and those due C4 stored/withdrawn. I cannot see the DfT authorising expensive overhauls for just a few months of service, although it will also depend upon agreement there is with Porterbrook.

 

[Goldfish62]

The 455s go off lease at the end of next year, how on earth are they going to have enough 701s to replace them by then at this rate?

I'm sure they'll have more than enough units. Trained drivers seems to be the problem.

 

[wickham]

Thanks Norbitonflyer for explaining the theme - so there are going to be more obscure names to come ! To me, as a non-sports fan, they all mean absolutely nothing.
Rather like the silly names given to the London Overground Lines, but then that is a completely different (stupid) story !

 

[LUYMun]

All I thought when I read "Nighthawk" was Allo Allo! Nighthawk calling London!

(Allo Allo was an old Sitcom for those of a younger age.....)

"Please mend the gap between the train and the platform, this is Kingstone."

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Thanks Norbitonflyer for explaining the theme - so there are going to be more obscure names to come ! To me, as a non-sports fan, they all mean absolutely nothing.
Rather like the silly names given to the London Overground Lines, but then that is a completely different (stupid) story !

I don’t think they’re particularly bad names, even if you have no interest or knowledge about the sport they’re related to. My personal favourite is “Thames Racer”, sounds like something an old steam engine would be called

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Nov 2024 ==

I'm sure they'll have more than enough units. Trained drivers seems to be the problem.

I mean services. The rate proposed is typically one new diagram a month.. unless they decide after June to start ramping it up at an unforeseen rate they’re not going to be able to cover all the 455 services by the time the lease runs out

 

[Goldfish62]

The press release says 1 in December 2024, 2 in February 2025, 3 in March 2025, 1 in April 2025, 1 in May 2025, 2 in June 2025 which seems a lot more achievable.

That's an absurdly slow roll-out. Something is clearly going badly wrong if it's that slow.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

That's an absurdly slow roll-out. Something is clearly going badly wrong if it's that slow.

Clearly. I’ve never seen a rollout at such a consistently slow pace.

And to clarify, the webpage makes it out as if all months only have 1 new diagram (rather than some 2 as mentioned in the post you’re replying to), looking at the train number column..!

This is why I stress it’s almost impossible that they’ll be able to cover for all the 455s by the end of 2025 if this rate continues. They’d have to really ramp it up after June to even get remotely close.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Clearly. I’ve never seen a rollout at such a consistently slow pace.

And to clarify, the webpage makes it out as if all months only have 1 new train (rather than some 2 as mentioned in the post you’re replying to), looking at the train number column..!

This is why I stress it’s almost impossible that they’ll be able to cover for all the 455s by the end of 2025 if this rate continues. They’d have to really ramp it up after June to even get remotely close.

In the late 50's BR would switch a whole depot and service over from steam to DMUs over a single weekend. Where's the ambition in todays railways?

 

[fgwrich]

This is actually the third launch for the class 701 Arterios.

The first launch, Mark Hopwood pretty much just launched the (rather clunky) name: Arterios.

The second - rather odd - launch was by Claire Mann.

And now this third launch.

Just as well it wasn’t the Titanic! Not so much Arterios; More Arteriosclerosis.

Funny enough I was just thinking that earlier too. Madness. Has any other fleet had 3 launch celebrations in its history?

Forgive me, but I was under the impression that the Class 701s already had a launch event last year.

See above. They did. Twice already. Perhaps, if SWR are introducing a sporting theme for these, they’ll have a press launch for every name.

Perhaps they should also name one after the some of the slower sports, croquet would match the pace of the roll out!

 

[3141]

Thanks Norbitonflyer for explaining the theme - so there are going to be more obscure names to come ! To me, as a non-sports fan, they all mean absolutely nothing.
Rather like the silly names given to the London Overground Lines, but then that is a completely different (stupid) story !

In a few years' time these names will be even more obscure, and therefore pointless. This is just a distraction from the real issue which is to get them in service. The original franchise would have finished before most of them were running. But the delay has certainly enabled the investment in retractioning the class 455s to be justified.

 

[Goldfish62]

See above. They did. Twice already. Perhaps, if SWR are introducing a sporting theme for these, they’ll have a press launch for every name.

Perhaps they should also name one after the some of the slower sports, croquet would match the pace of the roll out!

Having googled the world's slowest sport it appears to be snail racing. How very apt that would be.

 

[nctd2306]

This is why I stress it’s almost impossible that they’ll be able to cover for all the 455s by the end of 2025 if this rate continues. They’d have to really ramp it up after June to even get remotely close.

I'd imagine 450s and 458s will help fill in, it's likely the 458/4s will be cleared for Windsor and Reading services eventually, so most of the 450s there can be cascaded onto main suburban routes. Or at least that's what should happen in order to keep the railway somewhat functional if they do bin off all the 455s before all the 701s are ready...

 

[Goldfish62]

I'd imagine 450s and 458s will help fill in, it's likely the 458/4s will be cleared for Windsor and Reading services eventually, so most of the 450s there can be cascaded onto main suburban routes. Or at least that's what should happen in order to keep the railway somewhat functional if they do bin off all the 455s before all the 701s are ready...

Trouble with that is that the 450s and 455s barely cope with the busiest Reading trains and using 458s with a mainline interior would I think just make matters worse. Ideally the 458s would move to mainline work with the 450s being retained on suburban stuff. But of course that's not going to happen.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Clearly. I’ve never seen a rollout at such a consistently slow pace.

And to clarify, the webpage makes it out as if all months only have 1 new diagram (rather than some 2 as mentioned in the post you’re replying to), looking at the train number column..!

This is why I stress it’s almost impossible that they’ll be able to cover for all the 455s by the end of 2025 if this rate continues. They’d have to really ramp it up after June to even get remotely close.

Done the maths and at this rate it’ll take 7 years to rollout the whole fleet. A huge congratulations to SWR for failing beyond belief again

 

[DMckduck]

Trouble with that is that the 450s and 455s barely cope with the busiest Reading trains and using 458s with a mainline interior would I think just make matters worse. Ideally the 458s would move to mainline work with the 450s being retained on suburban stuff. But of course that's not going to happen.

I'm quite surprised reading is still last on the priority list, the morning and evening peak Reading trains have to been some of the busiest on the Windsor side surely?

Maybe there's infrastructure issues on the Reading line that isn't such an easy fix.

 

[WWTownEnth]

Straying slightly off topic (for which I apologise) but long term is the plan to keep the 458s in service even after the 701 rollout is totally complete? If so, on which lines?

 

[Goldfish62]

I'm quite surprised reading is still last on the priority list, the morning and evening peak Reading trains have to been some of the busiest on the Windsor side surely?

I struggled to get off the 0639 from Reading at Richmond the other morning. The crush was ridiculous.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Nov 2024 ==

Maybe there's infrastructure issues on the Reading line that isn't such an easy fix.

It was the first line they started testing on. I guess that although the trains are wedged in the peaks overcrowding isn't quite as critical as on other lines.

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

I find that the reading services are busy all day

 

[swtrains]

Next day at Waterloo, and all signs of the 701s have disappeared e.g. the massive floor print by the sidings, the information booth etc.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Next day at Waterloo, and all signs of the 701s have disappeared e.g. the massive floor print by the sidings, the information booth etc.

I was expecting at least the floor print to stay

 

[boiledbeans2]

Done the maths and at this rate it’ll take 7 years to rollout the whole fleet. [...]

That would be sufficient time to carry out another 3 or 4 "soft-launches".

 

[OneTrackMinded]

That would be sufficient time to carry out another 3 or 4 "soft-launches".

...and 3 to 4 more media events, each with a new MD to say "the rollout is coming"

 

[RuddA]

Straying slightly off topic (for which I apologise) but long term is the plan to keep the 458s in service even after the 701 rollout is totally complete? If so, on which lines?

This thread may help

SWR Class 458 to be retained

They still do leak. I very much remember when they first entered. Loose and rattling panels (resolved by Wimbledon using copious amounts of mastic), ceiling panels hanging off, the TMS having to reset part-way through what felt like almost every journey, every unit having bad wheel flats, even...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Stephen42]

That's an absurdly slow roll-out. Something is clearly going badly wrong if it's that slow.

They don't have enough staff, it's a long training course for drivers and pretty tight cost control. It was never going to be quick. The glimmer of hope is that the expansion onto several other routes probably means that most other depots will be doing 701 training and getting enough of a link trained for one diagram is usually the slower part.

Clearly. I’ve never seen a rollout at such a consistently slow pace.

And to clarify, the webpage makes it out as if all months only have 1 new diagram (rather than some 2 as mentioned in the post you’re replying to), looking at the train number column..!

This is why I stress it’s almost impossible that they’ll be able to cover for all the 455s by the end of 2025 if this rate continues. They’d have to really ramp it up after June to even get remotely close.

Each row is one new diagram, the Entry Into Service months are the same for some rows. Some of the rows would need to switch over together to keep the diagrams balanced, taking February 2025 from what's currently in the Network Rail schedule data:

Train #7
Y18436 5H05 0619 STRAWBERRY HILL C.S.D. - KINGSTON 0629
Y18095 2H05 0640 KINGSTON - SHEPPERTON 0705
Y18665 2H14 0711 SHEPPERTON - LONDON WATERLOO 0807
Y18671 2H13 0812 LONDON WATERLOO - SHEPPERTON 0905
Y18643 2H22 0911 SHEPPERTON - LONDON WATERLOO 1004
Y18670 2H21 1012 LONDON WATERLOO - SHEPPERTON 1105
Y18647 2H30 1111 SHEPPERTON - LONDON WATERLOO 1204
Y18706 2H29 1212 LONDON WATERLOO - SHEPPERTON 1307
Y18633 2H38 1312 SHEPPERTON - LONDON WATERLOO 1404
Y18698 2H37 1412 LONDON WATERLOO - SHEPPERTON 1505
Y18833 2H46 1511 SHEPPERTON - LONDON WATERLOO 1604
Y18705 2H45 1612 LONDON WATERLOO - SHEPPERTON 1705
Y18652 2H54 1711 SHEPPERTON - LONDON WATERLOO 1804
Y18655 2H53 1812 LONDON WATERLOO - SHEPPERTON 1905
Y18697 2H62 1911 SHEPPERTON - LONDON WATERLOO 2004
Y18669 2H61 2012 LONDON WATERLOO - SHEPPERTON 2106
Y18649 2H70 2111 SHEPPERTON - LONDON WATERLOO 2204
Y18654 2H69 2212 LONDON WATERLOO - SHEPPERTON 2305
Y21184 2H78 2311 SHEPPERTON - LONDON WATERLOO 0004
C03925 5Y42 0026 LONDON WATERLOO - CLAPHAM YARD SIDINGS 0055

Train #8
Y17834 5H87 0545 CLAPHAM YARD SIDINGS - LONDON WATERLOO 0600
Y20698 2H87 0615 LONDON WATERLOO - SHEPPERTON 0716
Y18626 2H94 0730 SHEPPERTON - LONDON WATERLOO 0833
Y21737 2R15 0845 LONDON WATERLOO - LONDON WATERLOO 1009
Y20916 5Y86 1022 LONDON WATERLOO - WIMBLEDON PARK DEPOT SDGS 1109
+
Y15976 5V49 1633 WIMBLEDON PARK DEPOT SDGS - LONDON WATERLOO 1649
Y20825 2V49 1707 LONDON WATERLOO - LONDON WATERLOO 1832
Y20711 2H97 1843 LONDON WATERLOO - SHEPPERTON 1929
Y18657 2H64 1936 SHEPPERTON - LONDON WATERLOO 2034
Y18716 2H63 2042 LONDON WATERLOO - SHEPPERTON 2135
Y18694 2H72 2141 SHEPPERTON - LONDON WATERLOO 2234
Y18632 2H71 2242 LONDON WATERLOO - SHEPPERTON 2336
Y18819 5H80 2341 SHEPPERTON - STRAWBERRY HILL C.S.D. 0002

The above might be inaccurate as the schedules could be altered before they switch over, some will require alteration where they don't currently balance.

With 5 units introduced in first five months, 10 in next ~6 months there is a small rate increase. While there are 82 class 455s, roughly need 30-35 10-car class 701s in service to displace those depending on other fleet changes. The next 10 gets a third of the way there, it's likely a further rate increase in the second half of next year and any remaining gap might be coverable by other stock/formation reductions while a few more diagrams await going over to 701s.

 

[Goldfish62]

They don't have enough staff, it's a long training course for drivers and pretty tight cost control. It was never going to be quick. The glimmer of hope is that the expansion onto several other routes probably means that most other depots will be doing 701 training and getting enough of a link trained for one diagram is usually the slower part.

Each row is one new diagram, the Entry Into Service months are the same for some rows. Some of the rows would need to switch over together to keep the diagrams balanced, taking February 2025 from what's currently in the Network Rail schedule data:

The above might be inaccurate as the schedules could be altered before they switch over, some will require alteration where they don't currently balance.

With 5 units introduced in first five months, 10 in next ~6 months there is a small rate increase. While there are 82 class 455s, roughly need 30-35 10-car class 701s in service to displace those depending on other fleet changes. The next 10 gets a third of the way there, it's likely a further rate increase in the second half of next year and any remaining gap might be coverable by other stock/formation reductions while a few more diagrams await going over to 701s.

That does all make sense. Thanks.

Do you know how many 701s are actually required to cover all intended services? SWR have already stated that there are going to be surplus units (which appears to indicate that they have no intention of increasing service levels).

 

[WWTownEnth]

That does all make sense. Thanks.

Do you know how many 701s are actually required to cover all intended services? SWR have already stated that there are going to be surplus units (which appears to indicate that they have no intention of increasing service levels).

I really think that this idea that service levels will not be increased should be taken with a huge pinch of salt. We are well off topic and in the realms of speculation here but the move back to office working is gathering pace. A lot of city firms (eg HSBC) are already bitterly regretting their downsize decisions and looking to reverse them. I imagine we will see services - driven by overcrowding demand - back to pre pandemic levels by 2028.

 

[Goldfish62]

I really think that this idea that service levels will not be increased should be taken with a huge pinch of salt. We are well off topic and in the realms of speculation here but the move back to office working is gathering pace. A lot of city firms (eg HSBC) are already bitterly regretting their downsize decisions and looking to reverse them. I imagine we will see services - driven by overcrowding demand - back to pre pandemic levels by 2028.

Not in the realms of speculation at all. The Engineering Director in the interview with Richard Bowker about 450s or 701s being fitted with batteries stated that the number of 701s ordered were based on pre-Covid demand so there is a surplus of units that are not required. Plus of course the full introduction of 701s on the current timetable increases capacity by over 20% anyway. Commuting is never going to increase to pre-pandemic levels and certainly not the extent of exceeding the additional capacity of the 701s. I would love the pre-Covid timetable to return - it would make my life easier - but it's gone for good.

Wondering how many 701s are required for the current timetable really is not off-topic at all. So if anyone can answer that would be great.

 

[WWTownEnth]

Not in the realms of speculation at all. The Engineering Director in the interview with Richard Bowker about 450s or 701s being fitted with batteries stated that the number of 701s ordered were based on pre-Covid demand so there is a surplus of units that are not required. Plus of course the full introduction of 701s on the current timetable increases capacity by over 20% anyway. Commuting is never going to increase to pre-pandemic levels and certainly not the extent of exceeding the additional capacity of the 701s. I would love the pre-Covid timetable to return - it would make my life easier - but it's gone for good.

Wondering how many 701s are required for the current timetable really is not off-topic at all. So if anyone can answer that would be great.

I didn’t mean that *your question* about required units was off topic, obviously. I meant speculation about commuting patterns was. Any eventual increase in services to (or near to) pre pandemic levels will - logically - be driven by those patterns. As someone who spends my life investing in commercial real estate, all I can say is that the work from home brigade is in for a nasty shock over the next few years. I don’t expect the rail industry to see it coming, but come it will; and these last few years will be seen a little more than an outlier in long term steady growth.

 

[DMckduck]

Not in the realms of speculation at all. The Engineering Director in the interview with Richard Bowker about 450s or 701s being fitted with batteries stated that the number of 701s ordered were based on pre-Covid demand so there is a surplus of units that are not required. Plus of course the full introduction of 701s on the current timetable increases capacity by over 20% anyway. Commuting is never going to increase to pre-pandemic levels and certainly not the extent of exceeding the additional capacity of the 701s. I would love the pre-Covid timetable to return - it would make my life easier - but it's gone for good.

Wondering how many 701s are required for the current timetable really is not off-topic at all. So if anyone can answer that would be great.

The closest we may get to pre covid levels would be on Tuesday through Thursday.

Anyone using SWR on Monday and Friday will notice footfall just isn't there and it's often possible to get a seat on most peak time trains.

Maybe a possibility of the pre covid timetable on Tue - Thu?