Current (autumn ‘24) passenger numbers

[SCDR_WMR]

Well fares are up £1.2bn and Network Rail's debt servicing costs are down (some of the bonds are index-linked) so we're making progress. What would really help boost income is a reliable service that the passengers can depend upon. Even on Sundays.

Which in the short term is about to downhill very quickly given a ASLEF haven't signed new RDW/OT agreements for some well performing TOCs

 

[12LDA28C]

We won't get commuters back in the same way - and that is (for society) a good thing.

Pursuing leisure passengers is the future. Which means you are going to need to make the railway *really good* to justify the premium prices it charges.

But trains are already absolutely packed at the weekends. Seems like people are already happy to pay those ‘premium prices’, doesn’t it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

But trains are already absolutely packed at the weekends. Seems like people are already happy to pay those ‘premium prices’, doesn’t it?

Now look at the M1 and M6.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Next question: How do we get them back?

( Milton Keynes > Euston is increasingly busy but still not like them olden days. I haven't had to sit in a luggage rack for years!)

I think for business travel, we are all still travelling for important client meetings and conferences, but much less for the weekly/monthly team/project meetings that were my bread and butter pre-pandemic. There *are* benefits to most people for meeting face/face but what I don't really see (at least in TOC websites) is acknowledgement of that or an attempt to persuade me to travel instead of the new alternatives of just sitting in the home office trying to do it all on MS Teams. One (Avanti perhaps) starts wittering on about booking business travel 8 weeks ahead for best prices, and I don't think I have ever booked it that far out, even for long haul flights.

So it's not that rail travel got worse, it's that the alternative got better and more acceptable. So if you're a Treasury bod trying to work out how to reduce the cost of the railway by growing business travel, then I reckon the following things matter
- delivering enough seats, ensuring seat reservations are uploaded to trains and allowing me to transfer reservations if my plans change
- The seat/tray table and ride quality all need to be good enough to support the use of a laptop
- Internet connectivity has to be good enough so that I can join Teams Audio calls reliably whilst I'm on the go
- Business travellers do think about fares because we have to justify that spend on face-face as good value under challenge from ourselves, leaders and clients; without having to muck about with split tickets
- Interchange stations should have types of hot-desk locations where I can boost up my phone/laptop battery, work for 15/20 mins or join a Teams call, not just cold unwelcoming waiting rooms

I am sure some will pick through this list and point out isolated initiatives from individual TOC, but my lived experience of this (mostly EMR/XC with some GWR & Avanti) is that there is no serious and sustained effort across the rail industry to actually do this.

 

[Krokodil]

- Internet connectivity has to be good enough so that I can join Teams Audio calls reliably whilst I'm on the go

There's got to be a market for soundproofed pods in First Class for en route meetings (whether with a laptop or between a group travelling together). The return of compartment stock?

 

[12LDA28C]

Now look at the M1 and M6.

What does that have to do with anything? Pretty sure plenty of leisure travellers live nowhere near the route of either motorway.

 

[alistairlees]

I think for business travel, we are all still travelling for important client meetings and conferences, but much less for the weekly/monthly team/project meetings that were my bread and butter pre-pandemic. There *are* benefits to most people for meeting face/face but what I don't really see (at least in TOC websites) is acknowledgement of that or an attempt to persuade me to travel instead of the new alternatives of just sitting in the home office trying to do it all on MS Teams. One (Avanti perhaps) starts wittering on about booking business travel 8 weeks ahead for best prices, and I don't think I have ever booked it that far out, even for long haul flights.

So it's not that rail travel got worse, it's that the alternative got better and more acceptable. So if you're a Treasury bod trying to work out how to reduce the cost of the railway by growing business travel, then I reckon the following things matter
- delivering enough seats, ensuring seat reservations are uploaded to trains and allowing me to transfer reservations if my plans change
- The seat/tray table and ride quality all need to be good enough to support the use of a laptop
- Internet connectivity has to be good enough so that I can join Teams Audio calls reliably whilst I'm on the go
- Business travellers do think about fares because we have to justify that spend on face-face as good value under challenge from ourselves, leaders and clients; without having to muck about with split tickets
- Interchange stations should have types of hot-desk locations where I can boost up my phone/laptop battery, work for 15/20 mins or join a Teams call, not just cold unwelcoming waiting rooms

I am sure some will pick through this list and point out isolated initiatives from individual TOC, but my lived experience of this (mostly EMR/XC with some GWR & Avanti) is that there is no serious and sustained effort across the rail industry to actually do this.

Exactly right. A good product (as you describe) needs to be defined and delivered. And it needs to be national (at least for inter-city / longer distance journeys) and not completely different from TOC to TOC. Customers are not interested in getting their heads round completely different TOC experiences, or in having an inconsistent experience.

 

[RT4038]

I think for business travel, we are all still travelling for important client meetings and conferences, but much less for the weekly/monthly team/project meetings that were my bread and butter pre-pandemic. There *are* benefits to most people for meeting face/face but what I don't really see (at least in TOC websites) is acknowledgement of that or an attempt to persuade me to travel instead of the new alternatives of just sitting in the home office trying to do it all on MS Teams. One (Avanti perhaps) starts wittering on about booking business travel 8 weeks ahead for best prices, and I don't think I have ever booked it that far out, even for long haul flights.

So it's not that rail travel got worse, it's that the alternative got better and more acceptable. So if you're a Treasury bod trying to work out how to reduce the cost of the railway by growing business travel, then I reckon the following things matter
- delivering enough seats, ensuring seat reservations are uploaded to trains and allowing me to transfer reservations if my plans change
- The seat/tray table and ride quality all need to be good enough to support the use of a laptop
- Internet connectivity has to be good enough so that I can join Teams Audio calls reliably whilst I'm on the go
- Business travellers do think about fares because we have to justify that spend on face-face as good value under challenge from ourselves, leaders and clients; without having to muck about with split tickets
- Interchange stations should have types of hot-desk locations where I can boost up my phone/laptop battery, work for 15/20 mins or join a Teams call, not just cold unwelcoming waiting rooms

I am sure some will pick through this list and point out isolated initiatives from individual TOC, but my lived experience of this (mostly EMR/XC with some GWR & Avanti) is that there is no serious and sustained effort across the rail industry to actually do this.

I would think your Treasury bod would weigh up that the costs of providing such would be far more than the revenue from the additional business which may come along and so would concentrate on reducing the cost of the railway by other means.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2024 ==

What does that have to do with anything? Pretty sure plenty of leisure travellers live nowhere near the route of either motorway.

Only a fraction of those using the M1 or M6 would even consider using the train for their journey.

We won't get commuters back in the same way - and that is (for society) a good thing.

Pursuing leisure passengers is the future. Which means you are going to need to make the railway *really good* to justify the premium prices it charges.

As becoming 'really good' is going to cost a lot of money (pushing those premium prices even higher) , with uncertain results, I doubt that it is going to happen.

 

[Sonic1234]

Which means you are going to need to make the railway *really good* to justify the premium prices it charges.

There's a difference between what the railway and the public calls "premium".

Potential leisure travellers are looking at Super Off Peaks and mid-tier Advances and saying no thanks, while the railway looks at this as people travelling on "cheap" and discounted fares.

 

[sh24]

I think for business travel, we are all still travelling for important client meetings and conferences, but much less for the weekly/monthly team/project meetings that were my bread and butter pre-pandemic. There *are* benefits to most people for meeting face/face but what I don't really see (at least in TOC websites) is acknowledgement of that or an attempt to persuade me to travel instead of the new alternatives of just sitting in the home office trying to do it all on MS Teams. One (Avanti perhaps) starts wittering on about booking business travel 8 weeks ahead for best prices, and I don't think I have ever booked it that far out, even for long haul flights.

So it's not that rail travel got worse, it's that the alternative got better and more acceptable. So if you're a Treasury bod trying to work out how to reduce the cost of the railway by growing business travel, then I reckon the following things matter
- delivering enough seats, ensuring seat reservations are uploaded to trains and allowing me to transfer reservations if my plans change
- The seat/tray table and ride quality all need to be good enough to support the use of a laptop
- Internet connectivity has to be good enough so that I can join Teams Audio calls reliably whilst I'm on the go
- Business travellers do think about fares because we have to justify that spend on face-face as good value under challenge from ourselves, leaders and clients; without having to muck about with split tickets
- Interchange stations should have types of hot-desk locations where I can boost up my phone/laptop battery, work for 15/20 mins or join a Teams call, not just cold unwelcoming waiting rooms

I am sure some will pick through this list and point out isolated initiatives from individual TOC, but my lived experience of this (mostly EMR/XC with some GWR & Avanti) is that there is no serious and sustained effort across the rail industry to actually do this.

As someone who does a fair amount of rail based business travel (London, Newcastle, Glasgow, Derby, Ilkeston this week, all by train with cabs where needed), I strongly endorse this. Especially the points about laptop usability and internet connectivity. Train time can be really productive time. Work hard to really improve that value proposition.

 

[Snow1964]

New figures released from DfT on its usage vs pre covid

Most recent figures for rail appear to be mid December
Some days are at 95% (or 106% if include Elizabeth line)

Rather makes those operators still running a thinned out timetable look out of touch, especially if allow for 4-5% cancellations in some areas

Daily domestic transport use by mode

Daily usage of selected domestic transport by mode for Great Britain.

www.gov.uk

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Or that an enhanced timetable would have more cancellations.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Who's still on a Covid timetable? Cross Country a bit until May?

 

[Peterthegreat]

Who's still on a Covid timetable? Cross Country a bit until May?

Northern in South Yorkshire.

 

[A S Leib]

Northern in South Yorkshire.

What does that entail? Merging the Sheffield – Doncaster / Adwick stoppers, and anything else?

 

[Peterthegreat]

What does that entail? Merging the Sheffield – Doncaster / Adwick stoppers, and anything else?

Sheffield to Doncaster stopping service reduced from half hourly to hourly. Some early morning trains cut.
Doncaster to Scunthorpe stopping service reduced from hourly to 2-hourly.
Some Doncaster to Hull stopping services cut
The Sheffield to Gainsborough Central service withdrawn.

 

[Llandudno]

New figures released from DfT on its usage vs pre covid

Most recent figures for rail appear to be mid December
Some days are at 95% (or 106% if include Elizabeth line)

Rather makes those operators still running a thinned out timetable look out of touch, especially if allow for 4-5% cancellations in some areas

Daily domestic transport use by mode

Daily usage of selected domestic transport by mode for Great Britain.

www.gov.uk

Passengers using (or May have considered using) Avanti or Northern services would dream of only 5% of trains being cancelled….

 

[12LDA28C]

Who's still on a Covid timetable? Cross Country a bit until May?

Chiltern.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Passengers using (or May have considered using) Avanti or Northern services would dream of only 5% of trains being cancelled….

Great to hear that they're closer to 100%, but that is still much more spread out across the day, with more off-peak and less peak travel meaning less revenue overall (and that the existing timetable can cope better with a given number of passengers over the day than it would have with the pre-covid distribution)

 

[dk1]

Over 800 passengers on the 06:30 Norwich-Liverpool St yesterday after it departed Colchester. Station car parks are all very healthy again Tuesday-Thursday and increasingly on Mondays too. Even Manningtree station car park which was controversially extended again in 2020 and has never come close to its potential is now getting that way.

 

[Goldfish62]

Chiltern.

SWR as well.

 

[urbophile]

we keep voting for Tories!

The rest of Europe (with few exceptions) seem to be electing increasingly right-wing governments at present. But most countries have a more joined up philosophy of public transport than we do. Unless that view is distorted by a perception that 'the grass is greener' – SNCF for example run an excellent – though comparatively infrequent – service of TGVs while the local network outside the big cities is sparse in the extreme.

 

[Class 170101]

Over 800 passengers on the 06:30 Norwich-Liverpool St yesterday after it departed Colchester. Station car parks are all very healthy again Tuesday-Thursday and increasingly on Mondays too. Even Manningtree station car park which was controversially extended again in 2020 and has never come close to its potential is now getting that way.

Standing room only then?

 

[Trainman40083]

I think for business travel, we are all still travelling for important client meetings and conferences, but much less for the weekly/monthly team/project meetings that were my bread and butter pre-pandemic. There *are* benefits to most people for meeting face/face but what I don't really see (at least in TOC websites) is acknowledgement of that or an attempt to persuade me to travel instead of the new alternatives of just sitting in the home office trying to do it all on MS Teams. One (Avanti perhaps) starts wittering on about booking business travel 8 weeks ahead for best prices, and I don't think I have ever booked it that far out, even for long haul flights.

So it's not that rail travel got worse, it's that the alternative got better and more acceptable. So if you're a Treasury bod trying to work out how to reduce the cost of the railway by growing business travel, then I reckon the following things matter
- delivering enough seats, ensuring seat reservations are uploaded to trains and allowing me to transfer reservations if my plans change
- The seat/tray table and ride quality all need to be good enough to support the use of a laptop
- Internet connectivity has to be good enough so that I can join Teams Audio calls reliably whilst I'm on the go
- Business travellers do think about fares because we have to justify that spend on face-face as good value under challenge from ourselves, leaders and clients; without having to muck about with split tickets
- Interchange stations should have types of hot-desk locations where I can boost up my phone/laptop battery, work for 15/20 mins or join a Teams call, not just cold unwelcoming waiting rooms

I am sure some will pick through this list and point out isolated initiatives from individual TOC, but my lived experience of this (mostly EMR/XC with some GWR & Avanti) is that there is no serious and sustained effort across the rail industry to actually do this.

I remember First Class lounges and reasonable food, travelling first class. But as you say, if you can't work, why would you travel by rail unless it was a productive use of time.

 

[dk1]

Standing room only then?

All seats and tip-ups taken and the standing passengers prevented the trolley making it through to the front carriages. Good job it’s a booked 745/1 on this service.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Who's still on a Covid timetable? Cross Country a bit until May?

Southern still hasn’t restored 4tph Victoria via Norbury.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jan 2025 ==

Southern still hasn’t restored 4tph Victoria via Norbury.

Plus their main line train formations are still mostly 8 cars instead of 12

 

[PGAT]

Who's still on a Covid timetable? Cross Country a bit until May?

It's probably easier to list TOCs that AREN'T

 

[A S Leib]

It's probably easier to list TOCs that AREN'T

• Lumo, Grand Central, Hull Trains, Heathrow Express
• I don't know if Eurostar's is better described as a Covid timetable or a Brexit one
• I think it's only Glasgow, Sunderland and the Stirling starter which LNER's lost, and is gaining much more this year
• The Abbey line going from 1tp40m to 1tph's the only LNR service reduction south of Birmingham I can think of, although I'm not sure off the top of my head if Northampton had 3 tph in either direction in 2019 and I think the Cross-City and Snow Hill lines are both down from 6 tph to 4

But elsewhere Thameslink's lost Orpington except a few peak services, TPE's down to 1 tph to Newcastle, I think some lines around Sutton and Epsom are still down a lot from pre-Covid..

 

[Bald Rick]

Rather makes those operators still running a thinned out timetable look out of touch, especially if allow for 4-5% cancellations in some areas

And yet overall the industry is running a higher percentage of “seat miles” compared to pre-pandemic than the % of passenger miles using them. And the biggest relative gap is on Regional services, where there are more seatmiles being run compared to pre-pandemic, and fewer passengers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I remember First Class lounges and reasonable food, travelling first class. But as you say, if you can't work, why would you travel by rail unless it was a productive use of time.

I think the "Voyager Coach D" layout used on the Avanti 805/807s does respect this - lots of table seats, wide spacing, power sockets etc.