Sandwich penalty fare

[riya]

Hi,
I was recently caught by gwr on a fare evasion and sandwich ticketing penalty case which i have unfortunately been taking a part in since a year and am quite regretful about it.
I have since this also decided to move out of the UK which is unrelated to me getting caugh. A few days ago i received an email from gwr highlighting the case and asking for a fine of £3.6k for the fare evasion as an out of court settlement.
I am willing to pay the settlement and bear the consequences of my actions but i do not have this kind of money as i have been unemployed for the past 2 months as well. Financial difficulties made me take this step for which i do take the responsibility. But is there any way that the fine can be lowered?
They have charged me anytime fare each way as the fine for the whole year as per their policy, i wish to know if they would be willing to charge the railcard fare as the amount is too high for me to pay up.

 

[notmyrealname]

Hi.

Could you show us the email and any other paperwork you've had please? If they've shown you a list of fares they think you evaded, you should be able to check if their figures are right. People here can help you with how to calculate that.

Cover up your name, address and any reference numbers on documents to keep this anonymous for you.

 

[Hadders]

Hi,
I was recently caught by gwr on a fare evasion and sandwich ticketing penalty case which i have unfortunately been taking a part in since a year and am quite regretful about it.
I have since this also decided to move out of the UK which is unrelated to me getting caugh. A few days ago i received an email from gwr highlighting the case and asking for a fine of £3.6k for the fare evasion as an out of court settlement.
I am willing to pay the settlement and bear the consequences of my actions but i do not have this kind of money as i have been unemployed for the past 2 months as well. Financial difficulties made me take this step for which i do take the responsibility. But is there any way that the fine can be lowered?
They have charged me anytime fare each way as the fine for the whole year as per their policy, i wish to know if they would be willing to charge the railcard fare as the amount is too high for me to pay up.

Welcome to the forum!

GWR are highly unlikely to lower the amount they're asking for. The problem is no-one would every buy a ticket if they could simply pay the railcard discountedfare when they were caught.

 

[Titfield]

It may be that this is a case where the OP should employ a specialist solicitor who would be able to advance the case that the OP should only be required to pay the lowest applicable fare (or aggregate fare ie season ticket) as that would be the amount that the TOC would have received. The solicotr may be able to ciye cases which have gone to court where this has been the amount awarded to the TOC.

 

[JBuchananGB]

Experts in this forum will give good advice. Please upload a copy of whatever letter/email you have received, but with personal details and reference numbers removed. You are not being asked to pay a penalty or a fine, but more accurately to pay the proper train fares for all the journeys you made with wrong or invalid tickets. GWR are unlikely to take into account any money you paid for the wrong/invalid tickets, and calculate the fare now due at the Anytime Single rate. Then there is a charge to cover their work dealing with your case. But none of this a penalty or a fine. If you are unable/unwilling to pay these charges, then they will go ahead to prosecute you in the magistrates' court for the occasion when you were stopped and checked.

 

[riya]

The calculations are correct based on the tickets bought. They earlier tried to settle for 5.5k but the figure was incorrect as i have a railcard for the timeframe they mentioned. Once i supplied a screenshot, they reduced the amount to 3.6k with all proofs provided.

I have bought correct tickets earlier, but due to financial difficulties in the last year, i tried to take an easy way out and it has caught up to me. I do not want any criminal records on my name but i dont have the money to pay this settlement.

I would just like to try to see if there a way they can reduce the amount to a railcard fare and add an admin fee on top as a way of exception?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2024 ==

Welcome to the forum!

GWR are highly unlikely to lower the amount they're asking for. The problem is no-one would every buy a ticket if they could simply pay the railcard discountedfare when they were caught.

Hi Hadders,

Thanks for your response. I do agree to that. But just wondering if youd think me pleading a case would help this. I definitely do not want to go into prosecution/ court

 

[JBuchananGB]

You are not in a strong position here. You have committed multiple criminal offences. You have also successfully negotiated a better deal than most people achieve, by having the fare you actually paid deducted from the fare due. The best resolution would be to pay the charges as soon as possible. Otherwise you can expect to be prosecuted in the magistrates court.

 

[Haywain]

It may be that this is a case where the OP should employ a specialist solicitor who would be able to advance the case that the OP should only be required to pay the lowest applicable fare (or aggregate fare ie season ticket) as that would be the amount that the TOC would have received. The solicotr may be able to ciye cases which have gone to court where this has been the amount awarded to the TOC.

Employing a solicitor may cost as much as it saves, so is unlikely to be significantly beneficial.

 

[skyhigh]

Once i supplied a screenshot, they reduced the amount to 3.6k with all proofs provided.

I would just like to try to see if there a way they can reduce the amount to a railcard fare

Unless I'm missing something here, they have already reduced the amount based on the proof of your Railcard?

 

[riya]

Unless I'm missing something here, they have already reduced the amount based on the proof of your Railcard?

Yes, that was because the calculation was incorrect for the settlement since the trips they were alleging for a fine were correct trips without any fault. The settlement should have been the new figure. My doubt is whether they can reduce that by charging a railcard fare since i still have a valid one instead of advance single for each ticket. So instead of 19£ for each journey, taking it down to the railcard fare of £6.5

 

[Titfield]

Employing a solicitor may cost as much as it saves, so is unlikely to be significantly beneficial.

Noted but with an anytime day return between Bristol TM and Bath Spa being £11.10 Adult that does give headroom between the fare charged and what is now being requested of the OP.

I am struggling though to understand whether the OP can or can not pay the sum sought (even at a push). Because if they can not then the case would go to court.

At court the OP would have (a) the opportunity to at least put the argument for the lower fare (b) when found guilty at least then be able to agree a payment plan with the court which he can not do with GWR.

It begs the question which is the bigger problem (a) not having the money now (b) get a criminal conviction.

He could go back to GWR and say I am very sorry but all I can afford to pay now is (for example £XXX - being the railcard reduced cheapest available fare and also deducting the fares paid already). The OP of course must be able to pay that immediately.

This would then place GWR in the position of either accepting this offer or still proceeding to court. The OP would be no worse off but at least he would have tried to get the sum reduced.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Yes, that was because the calculation was incorrect for the settlement since the trips they were alleging for a fine were correct trips without any fault. The settlement should have been the new figure. My doubt is whether they can reduce that by charging a railcard fare since i still have a valid one instead of advance single for each ticket. So instead of 19£ for each journey, taking it down to the railcard fare of £6.5

No.

They have already removed the fares where you did hold a valid railcard.

You may hold a valid railcard now, but that will be valid for 12 months from when you purchased it.

Presumably, the fares being claimed are the ones between the expiry of your old Railcard and when you were caught (and then went on to purchase a new Railcard). Therefore, at that time, you did not hold a valid railcard and no railcard discount will ever be valid, or applied.

If you refuse, or are unable, to pay the sum requested (or further try to "haggle" with them) they are perfectly entitled to take your case to court.

Edit: Misread. But no, they almost certainly won't reduce the sum any further, nor do they have any obligation to.

 

[riya]

No.

They have already removed the fares where you did hold a valid railcard.

You may hold a valid railcard now, but that will be valid for 12 months from when you purchased it.

Presumably, the fares being claimed are the ones between the expiry of your old Railcard and when you were caught (and then went on to purchase a new Railcard). Therefore, at that time, you did not hold a valid railcard and no railcard discount will ever be valid, or applied.

If you refuse, or are unable, to pay the sum requested (or further try to "haggle" with them) they are perfectly entitled to take your case to court.

I have always held a valid railcard, there has never been an off time where i havent had a railcard, the fine is for sandwiching my tickets

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2024 ==

Noted but with an anytime day return between Bristol TM and Bath Spa being £11.10 Adult that does give headroom between the fare charged and what is now being requested of the OP.

I am struggling though to understand whether the OP can or can not pay the sum sought (even at a push). Because if they can not then the case would go to court.

At court the OP would have (a) the opportunity to at least put the argument for the lower fare (b) when found guilty at least then be able to agree a payment plan with the court which he can not do with GWR.

It begs the question which is the bigger problem (a) not having the money now (b) get a criminal conviction.

He could go back to GWR and say I am very sorry but all I can afford to pay now is (for example £XXX - being the railcard reduced cheapest available fare and also deducting the fares paid already). The OP of course must be able to pay that immediately.

This would then place GWR in the position of either accepting this offer or still proceeding to court. The OP would be no worse off but at least he would have tried to get the sum reduced.

Yes abs, im trying to just reduce the amount of 19£ to a lil lower. I do want to reach an agreement would definitely not want to go to court with this. I have been unemployed for the past 1.5 months trying to find a job and hence this is come at a very difficult time. Secondly i wish to pay everything in one go since i stopped working, i have decided to move back to my home country permenantly. So i dont wish to stretch this more than it need to be.

I do have some saving to be able to pay a slightly lower settlement. But just cannot afford anything above approx 1.8-2k

 

[AndroidBango]

I have always held a valid railcard, there has never been an off time where i havent had a railcard, the fine is for sandwiching my tickets

An offence for which they are perfectly entitled to disregard you having a railcard (I would suggest that railcard discounting your doughnutted tickets is an aggravation rather than a mitigation).

 

[Lewisham2221]

I have always held a valid railcard, there has never been an off time where i havent had a railcard, the fine is for sandwiching my tickets

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2024 ==


Yes abs, im trying to just reduce the amount of 19£ to a lil lower. I do want to reach an agreement would definitely not want to go to court with this. I have been unemployed for the past 1.5 months trying to find a job and hence this is come at a very difficult time. Secondly i wish to pay everything in one go since i stopped working, i have decided to move back to my home country permenantly. So i dont wish to stretch this more than it need to be.

I do have some saving to be able to pay a slightly lower settlement. But just cannot afford anything above approx 1.8-2k

Sorry, misread one of the other posts. But no, they almost certainly won't reduce the sum any further, nor do they have any obligation to.

 

[riya]

An offence for which they are perfectly entitled to disregard you having a railcard (I would suggest that railcard discounting your doughnutted tickets is an aggravation rather than a mitigation).

Sorry, misread one of the other posts. But no, they almost certainly won't reduce the sum any further, nor do they have any obligation to.

I understand. Thanks for the suggestions
I have emailed them with the same query as well and would wait to see their reply and take a decision based on that

 

[Titfield]

But no, they almost certainly won't reduce the sum any further, nor do they have any obligation to.

I think that is now understood.

The question is whether we, the experienced forum members, believe there is any merit in the OP going back to GWR and asking politely if they would reduce the sum demanded to the anytime day return fare (with railcard discount) pointing out the ability of the OP to pay.

 

[riya]

I think that is now understood.

The question is whether we, the experienced forum members, believe there is any merit in the OP going back to GWR and asking politely if they would reduce the sum demanded to the anytime day return fare (with railcard discount) pointing out the ability of the OP to pay.

Yup, suggestions and views are welcome

 

[AndroidBango]

I think that is now understood.

The question is whether we, the experienced forum members, believe there is any merit in the OP going back to GWR and asking politely if they would reduce the sum demanded to the anytime day return fare (with railcard discount) pointing out the ability of the OP to pay.

I'm not sure it would be a wise course of action - having applied a railcard discount to a doughnutted ticket could (should)? be viewed as an aggravated attempt to evade the correct fare. That said, I'd expect GWR to stick to their guns rather than withdraw the offer.

 

[WesternLancer]

It seems the OP may have already moved abroad. It will cost them to come back and appear in court to plead their own case.

Are there other implications of this ie reduced chance of court securing fines and GWR obtaining their compensation? Though we know courts are the most effective of all over time in securing debts owed to them. By which time sums have further increased with bailiffs fees etc.

Does this have a bearing on matters?

It’s not clear if the op is a British citizen or not and thus more or less likely to ever need to return to the UK or not.

To be clear I’m not suggesting ignoring all this but it’s part of the scenario the op is in it seems to me.

 

[Lewisham2221]

I think that is now understood.

The question is whether we, the experienced forum members, believe there is any merit in the OP going back to GWR and asking politely if they would reduce the sum demanded to the anytime day return fare (with railcard discount) pointing out the ability of the OP to pay.

And my answer to that question is... No. The letter from GWR, which the OP has shared, specifically states that no further discounts are applicable. As already pointed out, they've taken the unusual step of taking into account the amount already paid. The admin fee applied is also an unusually low £90. Asking for a further reduction could antagonise GWR and lead to the offer being withdrawn.

 

[AlterEgo]

If the OP has moved back abroad permanently, why are they bothering to solve this? Do they intend to return?

 

[riya]

It seems the OP may have already moved abroad. It will cost them to come back and appear in court to plead their own case.

Are there other implications of this ie reduced chance of court securing fines and GWR obtaining their compensation? Though we know courts are the most effective of all over time in securing debts owed to them. By which time sums have further increased with bailiffs fees etc.

Does this have a bearing on matters?

It’s not clear if the op is a British citizen or not and thus more or less likely to ever need to return to the UK or not.

To be clear I’m not suggesting ignoring all this but it’s part of the scenario the op is in it seems to me.

If the OP has moved back abroad permanently, why are they bothering to solve this? Do they intend to return?

I will be moving back to my home country in dec third week and i do plan to visit the UK. As a tourist sometime, though not to settle, wouldnt want this to cause any any issues

 

[father_jack]

The calculations are correct based on the tickets bought. They earlier tried to settle for 5.5k but the figure was incorrect as i have a railcard for the timeframe they mentioned. Once i supplied a screenshot, they reduced the amount to 3.6k with all proofs provided.

I have bought correct tickets earlier, but due to financial difficulties in the last year, i tried to take an easy way out and it has caught up to me. I do not want any criminal records on my name but i dont have the money to pay this settlement.

I would just like to try to see if there a way they can reduce the amount to a railcard fare and add an admin fee on top as a way of exception?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2024 ==


Hi Hadders,

Thanks for your response. I do agree to that. But just wondering if youd think me pleading a case would help this. I definitely do not want to go into prosecution/ court

All those CDR and 16-25 fares at what could have been before 1000 if it was regular commuting !!!
Is this a severe case of "winding the clock forward" to avoid the minimum fare as well ???

 

[soil]

I will be moving back to my home country in dec third week and i do plan to visit the UK. As a tourist sometime, though not to settle, wouldnt want this to cause any any issues

A conviction is likely to mean you cannot enter the UK for 12 months.

General grounds for refusal: criminal convictions, public good, character, conduct and associations - Free Movement

Criminal convictions and other signs of poor character can, unsurprisingly, negatively affect applications for leave to enter or remain in the UK. Those

freemovement.org.uk

 

[WesternLancer]

I will be moving back to my home country in dec third week and i do plan to visit the UK. As a tourist sometime, though not to settle, wouldnt want this to cause any any issues

Ok. From what I understand an unpaid court debt would see you picked up at the airport on entry with a debt to pay. By which time the sum could have increased substantially.

Your best bet would be to find any legal way to get this money or borrow from eg family.

 

[SuspectUsual]

The calculations are correct based on the tickets bought. They earlier tried to settle for 5.5k but the figure was incorrect as i have a railcard for the timeframe they mentioned. Once i supplied a screenshot, they reduced the amount to 3.6k with all proofs provided.

I have bought correct tickets earlier, but due to financial difficulties in the last year, i tried to take an easy way out and it has caught up to me. I do not want any criminal records on my name but i dont have the money to pay this settlement.

I would just like to try to see if there a way they can reduce the amount to a railcard fare and add an admin fee on top as a way of exception?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2024 ==


Hi Hadders,

Thanks for your response. I do agree to that. But just wondering if youd think me pleading a case would help this. I definitely do not want to go into prosecution/ court

One small observation - the maths in the first incident on their list is wrong, and slightly overstates the amount owed. Only by two or three quid, but I assume what you've shown is only part of the overall spreadsheet so it may be worth checking the others

 

[JBuchananGB]

We do not know how criminals are treated in your home country, but in this case the prosecuting authority has offered you a very lenient way of dealing with your offending. They can withdraw this offer at any time. You are recommended to make payment promptly before the offer is withdrawn.

 

[riya]

One small observation - the maths in the first incident on their list is wrong, and slightly overstates the amount owed. Only by two or three quid, but I assume what you've shown is only part of the overall spreadsheet so it may be worth checking the others

Thanks for pointing this out, i shall have a look on the calculations on their pdf

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2024 ==

Ok. From what I understand an unpaid court debt would see you picked up at the airport on entry with a debt to pay. By which time the sum could have increased substantially.

Your best bet would be to find any legal way to get this money or borrow from eg family.

We do not know how criminals are treated in your home country, but in this case the prosecuting authority has offered you a very lenient way of dealing with your offending. They can withdraw this offer at any time. You are recommended to make payment promptly before the offer is withdrawn.

Most of the the suggestions point out that i should pay off the amount.

I will speak to my family about this situation and go from there. Thanks for the advices

 

[WesternLancer]

Most of the the suggestions point out that i should pay off the amount.

I will speak to my family about this situation and go from there. Thanks for the advices

This is a good plan. Hopefully your family can support you in resolving this.