Was given an MG11. Worried about history

[soil]

So, there's nothing I can do?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Nov 2024 ==

I'm trying not to panic. I don't have this money, Im a student and don't know what to do or if I should even try and prove anything

You're not require to prove anything. However, you're bang to rights on not having a ticket between Bletchley and London Euston. Upon conviction you're likely to be fined:

£60 fine
£24 surcharge
£24.30 for the fare
£185 prosecution costs

This will stay on your criminal record for 12 months, but will show up on an Enhanced check (e.g., teaching, medicine) forever.

WMR have to prove the other cases to convict you - they obviously believe you've been short faring, and if you can either provide a proper account and/or a settlement for the full amount of all the cases where you admit to short faring, then they are likely not to prosecute you for any of them. So you have a choice to:

• not answer the questions and likely get convicted of this one offence
• if you didn't do this before, and can provide plausible explanations to their question, then they may settle out of court for a sum of about what you'd pay in court for the Bletchley-Euston offence
• if you admit to further offences, they'll want more money from you, but will likely again settle out of court
• if you lie to them about the other travel and they can prove that you lied, then they may treat you more harshly.

If you're admitting to short-faring between Bletchley and Milton Keynes, the fare for that is £4.80.

 

[jamie123400]

You're not require to prove anything. However, you're bang to rights on not having a ticket between Bletchley and London Euston. Upon conviction you're likely to be fined:

£60 fine
£24 surcharge
£24.30 for the fare
£185 prosecution costs

This will stay on your criminal record for 12 months, but will show up on an Enhanced check (e.g., teaching, medicine) forever.

WMR have to prove the other cases to convict you - they obviously believe you've been short faring, and if you can either provide a proper account and/or a settlement for the full amount of all the cases where you admit to short faring, then they are likely not to prosecute you for any of them. So you have a choice to:

• not answer the questions and likely get convicted of this one offence
• if you didn't do this before, and can provide plausible explanations to their question, then they may settle out of court for a sum of about what you'd pay in court for the Bletchley-Euston offence
• if you admit to further offences, they'll want more money from you, but will likely again settle out of court
• if you lie to them about the other travel and they can prove that you lied, then they may treat you more harshly.

If you're admitting to short-faring between Bletchley and Milton Keynes, the fare for that is £4.80.

Short faring only occurred (excluding 12 times in 2 years where it was to Euston) between Northampton Wolverton Milton Keynes and Bletchley.
Though, I know I still did it. And I thought I could defend myself in times where I didn't go to Euston out of the 56 transactions.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Nov 2024 ==

I want to avoid conviction but I can't afford the full amount

 

[Bletchleyite]

I guess they're suggesting all the southbound ones actually continued to Euston? Question is, did they, and if not can you evidence that?

(I have quite a lot of unscanned in/out MKC<->Bletchley singles on my Trainline account, usually to go alongside a longer distance journey bought on Trainsplit - so there are legit reasons to buy an apparently short fare sometimes)

 

[jamie123400]

I guess they're suggesting all the southbound ones actually continued to Euston? Question is, did they, and if not can you evidence that?

(I have quite a lot of unscanned in/out MKC<->Bletchley singles on my Trainline account, usually to go alongside a longer distance journey bought on Trainsplit - so there are legit reasons to buy an apparently short fare sometimes)

I can provide evidence that they didn't continue Euston. But it's also admitting I short fared part of my intended journey to Milton Keynes/Bletchley.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Short faring only occurred (excluding 12 times in 2 years where it was to Euston) between Northampton Wolverton Milton Keynes and Bletchley.
Though, I know I still did it. And I thought I could defend myself in times where I didn't go to Euston out of the 56 transactions.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Nov 2024 ==

I want to avoid conviction but I can't afford the full amount

If you can evidence what the journeys actually were then they might reduce the amount to what you did do.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Nov 2024 ==

I can provide evidence that they didn't continue Euston. But it's also admitting I short fared part of my intended journey to Milton Keynes/Bletchley.

If you want to settle you'll need to be honest, at least about the ones in the list they sent you.

 

[jamie123400]

Most of my evidence is that I was in Milton Keynes, or Bletchley, rather than Euston

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Nov 2024 ==

If you can evidence what the journeys actually were then they might reduce the amount to what you did do.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Nov 2024 ==



If you want to settle you'll need to be honest, at least about the ones in the list they sent you.

Is it worth it admitting those journeys in order to defend the fact I didn't go to Euston?

 

[soil]

Most of my evidence is that I was in Milton Keynes, or Bletchley, rather than Euston

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Nov 2024 ==


Is it worth it admitting those journeys in order to defend the fact I didn't go to Euston?

they want an explanation that sounds objectively believable. if you show that you worked at Milton Keynes station (?) but bought tickets to Bletchley then that's believable, but they'll want you to pay for the journeys.

 

[jamie123400]

they want an explanation that sounds objectively believable. if you show that you worked at Milton Keynes station (?) but bought tickets to Bletchley then that's believable, but they'll want you to pay for the journeys.

I bought tickets to Wolverton for those dates. I didn't buy Wolverton to Milton Keynes because I didn't go through the ticket barrier

 

[Pushpit]

Most of my evidence is that I was in Milton Keynes, or Bletchley, rather than Euston

Is it worth it admitting those journeys in order to defend the fact I didn't go to Euston?

The usual advice here is not to incriminate yourself by admitting anything beyond the initial incident. However the context here is very different, where the train operating company has compiled a long list with specific journeys. Plus a bit of a hint that they could find more difficulties for you in the unlisted transactions. Personally I think you now aim for accuracy and full honesty. I'm not clear whether £3,000 is what you have evaded, but it's such a big sum that I don't think you now have the option to avoid admitting the full and exact extent of your deception. So in your shoes I would go through that list and say exactly what you did do, even if on some lines that means a higher sum. I guess you can prove your presence in MK and Bletchley.

This is the first step for the out of court settlement. If you convince the TOC about your true journeys then the £3000 should come down. If you really can't pay this, then you are likely to end up in the magistrates court. The total sanction will almost certainly be higher than the out of court settlement, but they may offer you the possibility of paying the sum over the next year rather all at once. But you will also have a criminal record on top.

 

[soil]

Thank you for your response and evidence.



Upon investigating your case we can see there was potentially short fare evasion being committed.



From reviewing your account there were over 280 transactions we have gone through and only deem 56 transactions as short fare evasion.



We have reviewed all scan data which none of the 72 were scanned whilst entering or leaving the stations.



Please in your response choose which option you wish to take.



Option A – To make full payment.

Option B – Provide evidence in the next 5 days to support your claims.

Option C – Have case handed over to the Prosecutions Team and incur further fees.



Please see attached transaction table we have investigated. For us to go forward with this case, we would suggest providing evidence to back your transactions or make payment.

Date	From	To	Refund request date	Ticket price Amount
18/05/2022 12:42	Bletchley	Milton Keynes Central		65.8
08/08/2022 20:32	Milton Keynes Central	Northampton		17.7
09/08/2022 12:41	Northampton	Milton Keynes Central		17.7
19/08/2022 08:24	Northampton	Milton Keynes Central		17.7
04/09/2022 08:45	Northampton	Milton Keynes Central		17.7
05/09/2022 12:05	Northampton	Wolverton		65.8
07/09/2022 12:05	Northampton	Wolverton		65.8
08/09/2022 12:05	Northampton	Wolverton		65.8
09/09/2022 12:05	Northampton	Wolverton		65.8
12/09/2022 12:05	Northampton	Wolverton		65.8
13/09/2022 12:05	Northampton	Wolverton		65.8
14/09/2022 10:25	Northampton	Wolverton		65.8
15/09/2022 10:25	Northampton	Wolverton		65.8
21/09/2022 12:25	Northampton	Bletchley		65.8
22/09/2022 20:06	Northampton	Wolverton		65.8
15/10/2022 20:00	Northampton	Bletchley		65.8
20/10/2022 12:41	Northampton	Milton Keynes Central		17.7
23/10/2022 12:56	Wolverton	Northampton		65.8
29/10/2022 16:05	Northampton	Bletchley		65.8
21/11/2022 07:38	Northampton	Bletchley		65.8
11/02/2023 13:30	Wolverton	Milton Keynes Central		68.3
13/02/2023 20:28	Wolverton	Milton Keynes Central		68.3
22/02/2023 20:28	Wolverton	Milton Keynes Central		68.3
23/02/2023 12:38	Milton Keynes Central	Wolverton		68.3
02/03/2023 20:02	Bletchley	Milton Keynes Central		68.3
04/03/2023 14:48	Northampton	Wolverton		68.3
07/03/2023 12:48	Northampton	Wolverton		68.3
15/03/2023 18:30	Wolverton	Milton Keynes Central		68.3
26/03/2023 11:29	Milton Keynes Central	Northampton		17.7
03/07/2023 17:42	Wolverton	Northampton		68.3
08/07/2023 15:00	Wolverton	Milton Keynes Central		68.3
22/07/2023 17:25	Wolverton	Milton Keynes Central		68.3
05/08/2023 11:18	Northampton	Milton Keynes Central		17.7
06/08/2023 16:38	Milton Keynes Central	Wolverton		68.3
15/10/2023 10:10	Northampton	Wolverton		68.3
21/10/2023 12:00	Wolverton	Milton Keynes Central		68.3
26/10/2023 16:00	Wolverton	Milton Keynes Central		68.3
26/10/2023 20:08	Milton Keynes Central	Northampton		17.7
02/12/2023 12:18	Northampton	Wolverton		68.3
02/12/2023 12:18	Northampton	Bletchley		68.3
23/12/2023 18:00	Milton Keynes Central	Bletchley		68.3
24/12/2023 14:15	Northampton	Milton Keynes Central		68.3
29/12/2023 19:16	Northampton	Wolverton		68.3
18/01/2024 08:18	Northampton	Wolverton		75.8
02/02/2024 19:48	Northampton	Bletchley		75.8
23/03/2024 13:18	Northampton	Bletchley		75.8
23/03/2024 19:08	Milton Keynes Central	Northampton		17.7
11/05/2024 18:08	Milton Keynes Central	Northampton		17.7
09/07/2024 11:18	Northampton	Milton Keynes Central		75.8
09/07/2024 22:02	Bletchley	Milton Keynes Central		75.8
13/07/2024 19:46	Northampton	Bletchley		75.8
20/07/2024 13:48	Northampton	Bletchley		75.8
03/10/2024 10:18	Northampton	Wolverton		75.8
05/10/2024 19:18	Northampton	Milton Keynes Central		17.7
12/10/2024 11:18	Northampton	Bletchley		75.8
23/10/2024 07:18	Northampton	Bletchley		75.8
			Admin Fee	350
			Total amount	3655.7

Total amount due to be paid is £3655.70 this includes admin fees. This is due to be paid or evidence supplied by 3rd December 2024

quoting this.
So they're saying they have 56
They've got these fares, which they are implying are all actually Northampton - London SDRs:

• 1 x MKC - Bletchley
• 3 x Bletchley - MKC
• 8 x Wolverton - MKC
• 2 x MKC - Wolverton
• 11 x Northampton - Bletchley (the last of which you were caught travelling to Euston)
• 16 x Northampton - Wolverton
• 2 x Wolverton - Northampton

(total £3111)

Then they're claiming that 6 Northampton - MKC fares and 5 MKC - Northampton fares you avoided £17.70 each journey. Not really sure what they're saying here, as it's the same fare across 2 years, which is obviously a mistake, but anyway.

As noted before, the train goes

Northampton - Wolverton - Milton Keynes - Bletchley - Leighton - (WFJ -) London

Your position is that your 16 Northampton - Wolverton tickets, where you would have paid £10.10, perhaps £6.65 with railcard, for a return, should have been £11.60/£7.65 tickets to MKC.

That's not a great saving, so not that plausible. But maybe you can prove it?! Let's say you prove it. They will ask for the full fare return, which is £19.50, or slightly cheaper for previous years. That is about £300 for those tickets.

There's a question mark over your 11 Northampton - Bletchley tickets, because we know 1 of them you used to travel to Euston, at 07:18. However, most of the others are at different times of day. If you can explain all 11 journeys, then they might believe you.....

The 8 Wolverton - MKC tickets look like short faring, and so do the 2 the Wolverton - Northampton

Anyway, you have options:

• you don't answer and most likely get prosecuted for the original offence, because they can't prove the others.
• you answer and they accept it and they will ask for the full return fare from Northampton (?) for each journey you admit to short-faring.

 

[WesternLancer]

quoting this.
So they're saying they have 56
They've got these fares, which they are implying are all actually Northampton - London SDRs:

• 1 x MKC - Bletchley
• 3 x Bletchley - MKC
• 8 x Wolverton - MKC
• 2 x MKC - Wolverton
• 11 x Northampton - Bletchley (the last of which you were caught travelling to Euston)
• 16 x Northampton - Wolverton
• 2 x Wolverton - Northampton

(total £3111)

Then they're claiming that 6 Northampton - MKC fares and 5 MKC - Northampton fares you avoided £17.70 each journey. Not really sure what they're saying here, as it's the same fare across 2 years, which is obviously a mistake, but anyway.

As noted before, the train goes

Northampton - Wolverton - Milton Keynes - Bletchley - Leighton - (WFJ -) London

Your position is that your 16 Northampton - Wolverton tickets, where you would have paid £10.10, perhaps £6.65 with railcard, for a return, should have been £11.60/£7.65 tickets to MKC.

That's not a great saving, so not that plausible. But maybe you can prove it?! Let's say you prove it. They will ask for the full fare return, which is £19.50, or slightly cheaper for previous years. That is about £300 for those tickets.

There's a question mark over your 11 Northampton - Bletchley tickets, because we know 1 of them you used to travel to Euston, at 07:18. However, most of the others are at different times of day. If you can explain all 11 journeys, then they might believe you.....

The 8 Wolverton - MKC tickets look like short faring, and so do the 2 the Wolverton - Northampton

Anyway, you have options:

• you don't answer and most likely get prosecuted for the original offence, because they can't prove the others.
• you answer and they accept it and they will ask for the full return fare from Northampton (?) for each journey you admit to short-faring.

This is good advice. Also brings clarity to the issue.
The OP needs to set out clearly and honestly what they have actually done (supported by evidence if they have it). It needs to be set out in clear way that a busy investigator can understand and follow too.

 

[jamie123400]

Thank you, so much for this. So, I will need to prove I was in Milton Keynes? I spoke to my friend who works as a solicitor and he said, that if I admit short faring part of my journey (Northampton - Wolverton) but got off at CMK or can only prove I was in Milton Keynes I would still be admitting the offences.

The majority of those Northampton - Wolverton tickets in 2022 I was working in the coffee shop on the platform in CMK and have evidence for this which is why my ticket didn't get scanned. Not the best decision on my end when I should have just paid the full fare.
Northampton to Bletchley I can prove the majority of those tickets. Even the one I was caught on, as I still did go to Bletchley that day, but understand I need to pay the full fare to Euston.

All in all I don't know if it's worth admitting I short fared but only to Milton Keynes the majority of the time. Or to only focus on what I'm completely innocent on, as I don't know if admitting those would make it worse.

It's a bit complicated as Wolverton and Bletchley are still part of Milton Keynes. You can drive from one station to the other, as my mum often picks me up.

 

[Haywain]

All in all I don't know if it's worth admitting I short fared but only to Milton Keynes the majority of the time. Or to only focus on what I'm completely innocent on, as I don't know if admitting those would make it worse.

We have advised you to be completely honest and co-operate with WMR. Your prevarication over this does you no favours and will not help your case. Put very simply - tell the truth.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thank you, so much for this. So, I will need to prove I was in Milton Keynes? I spoke to my friend who works as a solicitor and he said, that if I admit short faring part of my journey (Northampton - Wolverton) but got off at CMK or can only prove I was in Milton Keynes I would still be admitting the offences.

Well, yes, you still short fared, just not to Euston like they think - that would be obvious wouldn't it?

 

[John R]

The tickets to Bletchley I think you will struggle to convince them that they were not short fares, unless you have very strong evidence as to what your business was there (ie were you working there, and moreover your employer can evidence it?).

 

[jamie123400]

The tickets to Bletchley I think you will struggle to convince them that they were not short fares, unless you have very strong evidence as to what your business was there (ie were you working there, and moreover your employer can evidence it?).

The gates are closed there usually. I have evidence in text messages with friends and also my dogs vet was there so I have some of those records

 

[John R]

The gates are closed there usually. I have evidence in text messages with friends and also my dogs vet was there so I have some of those records

If the gates are usually closed, and there is an exit scan, I would have thought they would not have included them in the list of potential short fares.

 

[jamie123400]

Date	From	To	Ticket price Amount	Evidence of presence in MK	Extra Info
18/05/2022 12:42	Bletchley	Milton Keynes Central	65.8	Still looking (Living in MK)
08/08/2022 20:32	Milton Keynes Central	Northampton	17.7	Text Message AST (Living in MK)
09/08/2022 12:41	Northampton	Milton Keynes Central	17.7	Text Message AST (Living in MK)
19/08/2022 08:24	Northampton	Milton Keynes Central	17.7	Text Message (Living in MK)
04/09/2022 08:45	Northampton	Milton Keynes Central	17.7	See attachment Gmail - Schedules for Giardino 14 [From Mon, 5 Sep 2022 - Sun, 11 Sep 2022]
05/09/2022 12:05	Northampton	Wolverton	65.8		Northampton - MK
07/09/2022 12:05	Northampton	Wolverton	65.8		Northampton - MK
08/09/2022 12:05	Northampton	Wolverton	65.8		Northampton - MK
09/09/2022 12:05	Northampton	Wolverton	65.8		Northampton - MK
12/09/2022 12:05	Northampton	Wolverton	65.8	See attachment Gmail - Schedules for Giardino 14 [From Mon, 12 Sep 2022 - Sun, 18 Sep 2022] Gmail - Removed shifts (Giardino 14)	Northampton - MK
13/09/2022 12:05	Northampton	Wolverton	65.8	-	Northampton - MK
14/09/2022 10:25	Northampton	Wolverton	65.8	-	Northampton - MK
15/09/2022 10:25	Northampton	Wolverton	65.8	-	Northampton - MK
21/09/2022 12:25	Northampton	Bletchley	65.8	Valid ticket Please see attachment 21/09/22 Evidence
22/09/2022 20:06	Northampton	Wolverton	65.8	Unable to provide
15/10/2022 20:00	Northampton	Bletchley	65.8	Text Message
20/10/2022 12:41	Northampton	Milton Keynes Central	17.7	Held a valid ticket
23/10/2022 12:56	Wolverton	Northampton	65.8	Unable to provide
29/10/2022 16:05	Northampton	Bletchley	65.8	Please see attachment bank purchase
21/11/2022 07:38	Northampton	Bletchley	65.8	Valid ticket Please see attachment
11/02/2023 13:30	Wolverton	Milton Keynes Central	68.3	Unable to provide evidence maybe?	Northampton - MK
13/02/2023 20:28	Wolverton	Milton Keynes Central	68.3	Unable to provide evidence maybe?	Northampton - MK
22/02/2023 20:28	Wolverton	Milton Keynes Central	68.3	Please see attached time stamped picture at CMK	Northampton - MK
23/02/2023 12:38	Milton Keynes Central	Wolverton	68.3	See attachment bank statement	MK - Northampton
02/03/2023 20:02	Bletchley	Milton Keynes Central	68.3	Cannot provide evidence
04/03/2023 14:48	Northampton	Wolverton	68.3	Please see attachment bank screen shot	Northampton - MK
07/03/2023 12:48	Northampton	Wolverton	68.3	Cannot provide evidence
15/03/2023 18:30	Wolverton	Milton Keynes Central	68.3	Unable to provide evidence
26/03/2023 11:29	Milton Keynes Central	Northampton	17.7
03/07/2023 17:42	Wolverton	Northampton	68.3	See attachment	MK - Northampton
08/07/2023 15:00	Wolverton	Milton Keynes Central	68.3	Please see attachment and bank screenshot	Northampton - MK
22/07/2023 17:25	Wolverton	Milton Keynes Central	68.3	Coach ticket back from Milton Keynes	Northampton - MK
05/08/2023 11:18	Northampton	Milton Keynes Central	17.7	Please see attached
06/08/2023 16:38	Milton Keynes Central	Wolverton	68.3	Please see attached	MK - Northampton
15/10/2023 10:10	Northampton	Wolverton	68.3	Please see attached	Northampton - MK
21/10/2023 12:00	Wolverton	Milton Keynes Central	68.3	Please see attached text message	Northampton - MK
26/10/2023 16:00	Wolverton	Milton Keynes Central	68.3	Please see attached	Northampton - MK
26/10/2023 20:08	Milton Keynes Central	Northampton	17.7
02/12/2023 12:18	Northampton	Wolverton	68.3	Valid ticket Please see attached
02/12/2023 12:18	Northampton	Bletchley	68.3	Valid ticket Please see attached
23/12/2023 18:00	Milton Keynes Central	Bletchley	68.3	Please see attached bank	Northampton - Bletchley
24/12/2023 14:15	Northampton	Milton Keynes Central	68.3	Valid ticket Please see attached
29/12/2023 19:16	Northampton	Wolverton	68.3	Valid ticket
18/01/2024 08:18	Northampton	Wolverton	75.8	Unable to provide evidence
02/02/2024 19:48	Northampton	Bletchley	75.8	Valid ticket See text message and attachment
23/03/2024 13:18	Northampton	Bletchley	75.8	Valid ticket, please see attached
23/03/2024 19:08	Milton Keynes Central	Northampton	17.7
11/05/2024 18:08	Milton Keynes Central	Northampton	17.7
09/07/2024 11:18	Northampton	Milton Keynes Central	75.8	Valid ticket Please see attached
09/07/2024 22:02	Bletchley	Milton Keynes Central	75.8	Valid ticket attached
13/07/2024 19:46	Northampton	Bletchley	75.8	Valid ticket Please see text message and receipt
20/07/2024 13:48	Northampton	Bletchley	75.8	Valid ticket Please see bank screenshot
03/10/2024 10:18	Northampton	Wolverton	75.8	Cannot provide evidence
05/10/2024 19:18	Northampton	Milton Keynes Central	17.7
12/10/2024 11:18	Northampton	Bletchley	75.8	Valid ticket
23/10/2024 07:18	Northampton	Bletchley	75.8
			350

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Nov 2024 ==

This is the updated, I have attached anymore but will supply other paper work if anyone is interested. But I have collected all my evidence as much as I can

 

[soil]

Date	From	To	Ticket price Amount	Evidence of presence in MK	Extra Info
18/05/2022 12:42	Bletchley	Milton Keynes Central	65.8	Still looking (Living in MK)
08/08/2022 20:32	Milton Keynes Central	Northampton	17.7	Text Message AST (Living in MK)
09/08/2022 12:41	Northampton	Milton Keynes Central	17.7	Text Message AST (Living in MK)
19/08/2022 08:24	Northampton	Milton Keynes Central	17.7	Text Message (Living in MK)
04/09/2022 08:45	Northampton	Milton Keynes Central	17.7	See attachment Gmail - Schedules for Giardino 14 [From Mon, 5 Sep 2022 - Sun, 11 Sep 2022]
05/09/2022 12:05	Northampton	Wolverton	65.8		Northampton - MK
07/09/2022 12:05	Northampton	Wolverton	65.8		Northampton - MK
08/09/2022 12:05	Northampton	Wolverton	65.8		Northampton - MK
09/09/2022 12:05	Northampton	Wolverton	65.8		Northampton - MK
12/09/2022 12:05	Northampton	Wolverton	65.8	See attachment Gmail - Schedules for Giardino 14 [From Mon, 12 Sep 2022 - Sun, 18 Sep 2022] Gmail - Removed shifts (Giardino 14)	Northampton - MK
13/09/2022 12:05	Northampton	Wolverton	65.8	-	Northampton - MK
14/09/2022 10:25	Northampton	Wolverton	65.8	-	Northampton - MK
15/09/2022 10:25	Northampton	Wolverton	65.8	-	Northampton - MK
21/09/2022 12:25	Northampton	Bletchley	65.8	Valid ticket Please see attachment 21/09/22 Evidence
22/09/2022 20:06	Northampton	Wolverton	65.8	Unable to provide
15/10/2022 20:00	Northampton	Bletchley	65.8	Text Message
20/10/2022 12:41	Northampton	Milton Keynes Central	17.7	Held a valid ticket
23/10/2022 12:56	Wolverton	Northampton	65.8	Unable to provide
29/10/2022 16:05	Northampton	Bletchley	65.8	Please see attachment bank purchase
21/11/2022 07:38	Northampton	Bletchley	65.8	Valid ticket Please see attachment
11/02/2023 13:30	Wolverton	Milton Keynes Central	68.3	Unable to provide evidence maybe?	Northampton - MK
13/02/2023 20:28	Wolverton	Milton Keynes Central	68.3	Unable to provide evidence maybe?	Northampton - MK
22/02/2023 20:28	Wolverton	Milton Keynes Central	68.3	Please see attached time stamped picture at CMK	Northampton - MK
23/02/2023 12:38	Milton Keynes Central	Wolverton	68.3	See attachment bank statement	MK - Northampton
02/03/2023 20:02	Bletchley	Milton Keynes Central	68.3	Cannot provide evidence
04/03/2023 14:48	Northampton	Wolverton	68.3	Please see attachment bank screen shot	Northampton - MK
07/03/2023 12:48	Northampton	Wolverton	68.3	Cannot provide evidence
15/03/2023 18:30	Wolverton	Milton Keynes Central	68.3	Unable to provide evidence
26/03/2023 11:29	Milton Keynes Central	Northampton	17.7
03/07/2023 17:42	Wolverton	Northampton	68.3	See attachment	MK - Northampton
08/07/2023 15:00	Wolverton	Milton Keynes Central	68.3	Please see attachment and bank screenshot	Northampton - MK
22/07/2023 17:25	Wolverton	Milton Keynes Central	68.3	Coach ticket back from Milton Keynes	Northampton - MK
05/08/2023 11:18	Northampton	Milton Keynes Central	17.7	Please see attached
06/08/2023 16:38	Milton Keynes Central	Wolverton	68.3	Please see attached	MK - Northampton
15/10/2023 10:10	Northampton	Wolverton	68.3	Please see attached	Northampton - MK
21/10/2023 12:00	Wolverton	Milton Keynes Central	68.3	Please see attached text message	Northampton - MK
26/10/2023 16:00	Wolverton	Milton Keynes Central	68.3	Please see attached	Northampton - MK
26/10/2023 20:08	Milton Keynes Central	Northampton	17.7
02/12/2023 12:18	Northampton	Wolverton	68.3	Valid ticket Please see attached
02/12/2023 12:18	Northampton	Bletchley	68.3	Valid ticket Please see attached
23/12/2023 18:00	Milton Keynes Central	Bletchley	68.3	Please see attached bank	Northampton - Bletchley
24/12/2023 14:15	Northampton	Milton Keynes Central	68.3	Valid ticket Please see attached
29/12/2023 19:16	Northampton	Wolverton	68.3	Valid ticket
18/01/2024 08:18	Northampton	Wolverton	75.8	Unable to provide evidence
02/02/2024 19:48	Northampton	Bletchley	75.8	Valid ticket See text message and attachment
23/03/2024 13:18	Northampton	Bletchley	75.8	Valid ticket, please see attached
23/03/2024 19:08	Milton Keynes Central	Northampton	17.7
11/05/2024 18:08	Milton Keynes Central	Northampton	17.7
09/07/2024 11:18	Northampton	Milton Keynes Central	75.8	Valid ticket Please see attached
09/07/2024 22:02	Bletchley	Milton Keynes Central	75.8	Valid ticket attached
13/07/2024 19:46	Northampton	Bletchley	75.8	Valid ticket Please see text message and receipt
20/07/2024 13:48	Northampton	Bletchley	75.8	Valid ticket Please see bank screenshot
03/10/2024 10:18	Northampton	Wolverton	75.8	Cannot provide evidence
05/10/2024 19:18	Northampton	Milton Keynes Central	17.7
12/10/2024 11:18	Northampton	Bletchley	75.8	Valid ticket
23/10/2024 07:18	Northampton	Bletchley	75.8
			350

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Nov 2024 ==

This is the updated, I have attached anymore but will supply other paper work if anyone is interested. But I have collected all my evidence as much as I can

Not clear quite what you're saying here.

Looks like you've admitted to about 20 instances of shortfaring on trips Northampton - MKC? If so they're likely to accept that but it won't be all that cheap to pay them off.

 

[jamie123400]

Not clear quite what you're saying here.

Looks like you've admitted to about 20 instances of shortfaring on trips Northampton - MKC? If so they're likely to accept that but it won't be all that cheap to pay them off.

I thought they're charging me all the way to Euston?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Nov 2024 ==

What I'm confused is:

They've asked me for evidence
If I don't supply evidence Im going to court.
If I can't pay in 4 days Im going to court.

So at surface level, I didn't see any other options, but now if I supply evidence I'm going to court?
If I ask for instalment plan am I going to court after trying to negotiate what I can pay?

I have no idea how to go forward.
I'm extremely terrified. My well being is severely deteriorating but I really appreciate everybody's input so far.
I'm hoping to come up with a draft soon in the midst of things.

 

[soil]

I thought they're charging me all the way to Euston?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Nov 2024 ==

What I'm confused is:

They've asked me for evidence
If I don't supply evidence Im going to court.
If I can't pay in 4 days Im going to court.

So at surface level, I didn't see any other options, but now if I supply evidence I'm going to court?

Not sure what you mean.

They said 'we've caught you shortfaring once, we think you did it 56 times, all to London pay us 56 x full fares Northampton - London or we'll prosecute you'

Now you're going to reply saying 'actually I shortfared 20 times to MKC, and once to London' (if my reading is correct).

They are likely to accept that explanation and demand the cost of 20 x Northampton - MKC (if any of these fares were singles, then only a single fare) and 1 x Northampton - London return fares.

If you don't pay then they'd take you to court using your admissions of the 20 shortfares, albeit that in court they'd deduct the fares you'd actually be paid. But you'd get convicted....

If you don't reply at all you're likely to be convicted of one count of Northampton - London shortfaring.

 

[WesternLancer]

Not sure what you mean.

They said 'we've caught you shortfaring once, we think you did it 56 times, all to London pay us 56 x full fares Northampton - London or we'll prosecute you'

Now you're going to reply saying 'actually I shortfared 20 times to MKC, and once to London' (if my reading is correct).

They are likely to accept that explanation and demand the cost of 20 x Northampton - MKC (if any of these fares were singles, then only a single fare) and 1 x Northampton - London return fares.

If you don't pay then they'd take you to court using your admissions of the 20 shortfares, albeit that in court they'd deduct the fares you'd actually be paid. But you'd get convicted....

If you don't reply at all you're likely to be convicted of one count of Northampton - London shortfaring.

Yes. This seems a good synopsis. The op needs to prepare a clear reply along these lines quickly now before the deadline expires I would think.
Best they post the draft here so it can be checked for clarity.

 

[Pushpit]

This is the updated, I have attached anymore but will supply other paper work if anyone is interested. But I have collected all my evidence as much as I can

I think this is a really good first step and you are 95% of where you need to be. But the slight problem is that
- LNW didn't send you a very clear spreadsheet - it didn't make clear it was going to charge you to Euston for some of the fares
- Your input makes it more complicated, though that's definitely not your fault.

I would add two columns.
- One the actual journey you did on that day - we're all guessing on this (and LNW should have been clearer). This should be brutally honest.
- A column which says whether you accept you owe LNW money or not for each line.
In both cases if you are not sure then that's being honest too. Just say either "can't recall" or "no but not sure" or whatever is the honest answer. Deception got you into trouble, honesty will get you out of it. Other people tend to be far better at telling your honesty than you may think.

I don't think you need to calculate an alternative charge, LNW should do that, but obviously you should in order to see what is the correct repayment owed. And that is the point of this exercise - it's not about proving where you were, that's a secondary issue, it's about establishing what you owe.

 

[WesternLancer]

I think this is a really good first step and you are 95% of where you need to be. But the slight problem is that
- LNW didn't send you a very clear spreadsheet - it didn't make clear it was going to charge you to Euston for some of the fares
- Your input makes it more complicated, though that's definitely not your fault.

I would add two columns.
- One the actual journey you did on that day - we're all guessing on this (and LNW should have been clearer). This should be brutally honest.
- A column which says whether you accept you owe LNW money or not for each line.
In both cases if you are not sure then that's being honest too. Just say either "can't recall" or "no but not sure" or whatever is the honest answer. Deception got you into trouble, honesty will get you out of it. Other people tend to be far better at telling your honesty than you may think.

I don't think you need to calculate an alternative charge, LNW should do that, but obviously you should in order to see what is the correct repayment owed. And that is the point of this exercise - it's not about proving where you were, that's a secondary issue, it's about establishing what you owe.

This seems like a very good approach and good advice.

 

[Skymonster]

Not sure what you mean.

They said 'we've caught you shortfaring once, we think you did it 56 times, all to London pay us 56 x full fares Northampton - London or we'll prosecute you'

Now you're going to reply saying 'actually I shortfared 20 times to MKC, and once to London' (if my reading is correct).

They are likely to accept that explanation and demand the cost of 20 x Northampton - MKC (if any of these fares were singles, then only a single fare) and 1 x Northampton - London return fares.

If you don't pay then they'd take you to court using your admissions of the 20 shortfares, albeit that in court they'd deduct the fares you'd actually be paid. But you'd get convicted....

If you don't reply at all you're likely to be convicted of one count of Northampton - London shortfaring.

Reading through all of the above I think the OP sees the problem as this:

• OP can’t afford to pay the amount WMR is currently demanding, and asserts its wrong anyway.
• If no response / payment is made, OP will be taken to court for the offence they were caught for.
• OP would thus get a conviction and a court imposed fine based on that one offence.
• OP can explain some of the discrepancies, which might reduce the out of court settlement. But doing so incriminates them for additional short faring.
• If WMR accepts evidence from the OP that reduces the out of court settlement, it is likely OP still won’t be able afford that [lesser] sum demanded.
• If OP doesn’t pay any lesser amount demanded, they will taken to court, but WMR has evidence via admission of more wrongdoing, which could increase the fine imposed by the court as well as still get the OP a conviction.

If an inability to afford the payment needed to make this go away is the PRIMARY issue, OP might have to accept that going to court and being convicted for the one offence is the least costly way out. But that depends on what OP sees for their future (with a conviction spent for most purposes after a year), versus their ability to borrow money to bring this to a close without a conviction.

 

[AlterEgo]

Reading through all of the above I think the OP sees the problem as this:

• OP can’t afford to pay the amount WMR is currently demanding, and asserts its wrong anyway.
• If no response / payment is made, OP will be taken to court for the offence they were caught for.
• OP would thus get a conviction and a court imposed fine based on that one offence.
• OP can explain some of the discrepancies, which might reduce the out of court settlement. But doing so incriminates them for additional short faring.
• If WMR accepts evidence from the OP that reduces the out of court settlement, it is likely OP still won’t be able afford that [lesser] sum demanded.
• If OP doesn’t pay any lesser amount demanded, they will taken to court, but WMR has evidence via admission of more wrongdoing, which could increase the fine imposed by the court as well as still get the OP a conviction.

If an inability to afford the payment needed to make this go away is the PRIMARY issue, OP might have to accept that going to court and being convicted for the one offence is the least costly way out. But that depends on what OP sees for their future (with a conviction spent for most purposes after a year), versus their ability to borrow money to bring this to a close without a conviction.

There is also a chance the train company will want other offences taken into consideration and the conviction ends up with compensation reflecting many journeys, not just one.

 

[soil]

Yes. This seems a good synopsis. The op needs to prepare a clear reply along these lines quickly now before the deadline expires I would think.
Best they post the draft here so it can be checked for clarity.

On reflection
It looks like the OP is admitting to 20 instances of short faring one stop from 2022 & 2023, where he presumably saved about £1 a go.
He was also caught short faring to Euston last month, where the amount of fare avoided is likely to be about £30.

So about £50 that's been saved.

The problem (from the TOC's perspective) with the 2022/2023 offences is that they are out of the six month time limit, and this isn't a case of fraud.

However, we're still faced with the problem that they suspect rather more fares have been avoided, the OP shouldn't lie, but I wonder if it might be possible to avoid answering the question for 2022 & 2023 journeys, because they're likely to demand a relatively disproportionate sum in respect of a £1 saving that they couldn't convict him on in the first place.....

 

[AlterEgo]

On reflection
It looks like the OP is admitting to 20 instances of short faring one stop from 2022 & 2023, where he presumably saved about £1 a go.
He was also caught short faring to Euston last month, where the amount of fare avoided is likely to be about £30.

So about £50 that's been saved.

The problem (from the TOC's perspective) with the 2022/2023 offences is that they are out of the six month time limit, and this isn't a case of fraud.

However, we're still faced with the problem that they suspect rather more fares have been avoided, the OP shouldn't lie, but I wonder if it might be possible to avoid answering the question for 2022 & 2023 journeys, because they're likely to demand a relatively disproportionate sum in respect of a £1 saving that they couldn't convict him on in the first place.....

The TOC is highly unlikely to be as charitable as you!

Essentially the OP is saying "yeah I got caught short faring once to London saving an expensive fare, but all the other short fares, right...I promise none of those were to London. Actually I saved £1 every time - even ones where I have no evidence at all to back up my presence in Milton Keynes".

On the fraud angle, you are not correct. See this, which was prosecuted as short faring by Chiltern under the Fraud Act: https://www.bucksfreepress.co.uk/ne...ilways-investigation-lands-fare-dodger-court/ - exactly the same as the OP's modus operandi.

 

[Haywain]

The problem (from the TOC's perspective) with the 2022/2023 offences is that they are out of the six month time limit, and this isn't a case of fraud.

The six month limit really doesn't matter. The deal the train company are offering is to pay the amount they agree to or go to court for the one offence for which they can obtain a conviction. The fact that some of those cases can't be prosecuted is overridden by having one that they can.

 

[soil]

The TOC is highly unlikely to be as charitable as you!

Essentially the OP is saying "yeah I got caught short faring once to London saving an expensive fare, but all the other short fares, right...I promise none of those were to London. Actually I saved £1 every time - even ones where I have no evidence at all to back up my presence in Milton Keynes".

I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise, but these are the actual losses that they appear to have suffered, and those which would be recoverable upon conviction. (And they wouldn't be able to convict him of the earlier offences.)

Obviously they can convict him of the case they can prove, so the question is how the OP can manage to get them to agree to a settlement for that case.

On the fraud angle, you are not correct. See this, which was prosecuted as short faring by Chiltern under the Fraud Act: https://www.bucksfreepress.co.uk/ne...ilways-investigation-lands-fare-dodger-court/ - exactly the same as the OP's modus operandi.

that's not exactly the same, at all.

Firstly you've asserted that he was prosecuted under the Fraud Act, but the article doesn't suggest that at all.

Secondly, he didn't turn up at court.

Thirdly, he pleaded guilty - there's nothing that suggests the charges were valid or that he was legally advised.

Finally, while there's no suggestion that he was charged with fraud, it certainly appears to go a lot further towards meeting that description than what we see here:

Mr Allen was ordered to pay a fine of £1,885, prosecution costs £185, investigation costs of £750, compensation amounting to £2,964.20 plus a victim surcharge of £188, making the total to pay £5,972.20.

Mr Allen purchased short tickets between Sudbury and Harrow road to London Marylebone, but he would only buy the correct ticket when he saw revenue protection staff checking tickets on-board the train.

On more than one occasion after he was stopped and questioned, Mr Allen refused to give his name and address.

To avoid detection, he used aliases when purchasing tickets and he withheld personal details from retailers where possible, the investigation revealed.

CCTV footage from different dates eventually confirmed that Mr Allen was indeed the person who had travelled on the days in question.

Despite his best efforts to fly under the radar, further enquiries by the Fraud Unit uncovered a digital data linking Mr Allen to the ticket purchases. He had also requested to have his personal data deleted from his Trainline account in March 2023 – immediately after he was stopped and questioned.

We're talking about ~£50 in lost revenue vs. £2964, and apparently one case of going on beyond his stop and the rest appearing to be cases where he worked at the station platform one stop along .