Cross Country

[MCR247]

Off peak Nottingham-Birmingham is nowhere near full, even the 1637 was pretty empty on a 3 car. Can't acount for other XC 170 routes

 

[WestCoast]

HSTs are suited to routes like the ECML, where you can go non stop for 200 miles/ 125 mph for long sections. Try doing that on XC (where you are stopping at a lot of "local" stations)... how many stops are there in 200 miles of an XC service?

That is a point, even though I am a HST fan. FGW's local HST stops on their routes seem to be a pain for the guard who has to run the length of the train because somebody has inevitably "forgotten" to close the door.

 

[StrollerEd]

advice from those in the know please:

Am considering booking
Edinburgh 09:08 XC
Plymouth 17:43

What advice to make for pleasant travel. Is FC that much better than Standard for comfort - and what are the food options given that this is a very long journey?

And is there any merit at all in considering the faster (9hr 20) option with more changes, other than a stretch of legs and the excitement of not knowing whether each train would make the connections on time:

Edinburgh 07:42 TP
Preston (Lancs) 10:04

Preston (Lancs) 10:17 VT
Birmingham New Street 11:55

Birmingham New Street 12:12 XC
Plymouth 15:43

 

[WestCoast]

And is there any merit at all in considering the faster (9hr 20) option with more changes, other than a stretch of legs and the excitement of not knowing whether each train would make the connections on time:

Edinburgh 07:42 TP
Preston (Lancs) 10:04

Preston (Lancs) 10:17 VT
Birmingham New Street 11:55

Birmingham New Street 12:12 XC
Plymouth 15:43

If I was you I'd take the changing faster option - TPE has good first class seating as well as VT and XC. The direct journey is on a CrossCountry Voyager with a fairly poor first class experience - decent seating but I'm not sure about food. Spending that long on a XC Voyager (in standard) won't be pleasant.

www.nationalrail.co.uk/passenger_services/firstclass.html

 

[YorkshireBear]

advice from those in the know please:

Am considering booking
Edinburgh 09:08 XC
Plymouth 17:43

What advice to make for pleasant travel. Is FC that much better than Standard for comfort - and what are the food options given that this is a very long journey?

And is there any merit at all in considering the faster (9hr 20) option with more changes, other than a stretch of legs and the excitement of not knowing whether each train would make the connections on time:

Edinburgh 07:42 TP
Preston (Lancs) 10:04

Preston (Lancs) 10:17 VT
Birmingham New Street 11:55

Birmingham New Street 12:12 XC
Plymouth 15:43

take the changes purely for the reason to stretch legs, if its advance you dont ahve to worry about missing trains as you are covered. I think that long on any train would be hard let alone a voyager.

 

[tbtc]

Off peak Nottingham-Birmingham is nowhere near full, even the 1637 was pretty empty on a 3 car. Can't acount for other XC 170 routes

Cheers, I'm surprised tbh, but can't argue
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That is a point, even though I am a HST fan. FGW's local HST stops on their routes seem to be a pain for the guard who has to run the length of the train because somebody has inevitably "forgotten" to close the door.

This is the difficulty with units no longer needed on their "original" routes (e.g. 91s on the ECML, 222s on the MML mean fewer HSTs needed), it was the same with the Deltics - the 55s got moved to Transpennine services they didn't suit (more frequent stops etc)

At least when buses are moved from "frontline" services they can be moved onto "secondary" routes easily enough (apart from actics). Harder with trains, which aren't able to cope (e.g. the time taken to check the doors on a HST doing the kind of duty a 166 used to - quite a time drag at each station).

HSTs have a higher top speed, but struggle all the same.

 

[MCR247]

Cheers, I'm surprised tbh, but can't argue

What is quite surprising is that even on a 3 car 170, the 1637 NOT - BHM is probably about as busy as the 2309 Birmingham - Nottingham hock:

 

[RichmondCommu]

LOL. Good joke.
Sorry, you werent being serious were you?!!!

No i was completely serious about the HST's. They have been fine servants to the intercity brand and i hope that a complete set will find its way into the national collection. They saved British Rail in the late 70's / early 80's.

 

[TomJ93]

I think XC have done a fantastic job. If the Voyagers were all 8 car, everyone be saying what a pleasurable journey they had aboard.
A longer train would offer more seats, luggage space a better kitchen for 1st and room for a shop, everybody's happy! To prevent carting around some lovely fresh air at off peak cheap advance fares would be available.

XCs HSTs are fantastic inside, just a query why aren't the seat reservation displays used?

 

[1018509]

............five coach train might be fine for offpeak capacity but too small at rush hour ...........

5 coaches! Where? Most XC trains on the Bournemouth/Newcastle route are 4 coaches. We are occasionally blessed with a 5.

Sometimes two units making an 8, 9, or 10 coach train but I am assuming that on the few times I have seen these it is a rescue mission for a defective unit.

Could another reason for XCT unpopularity be the fact that they don't appear to run anywhere on their own metals as it were.

Do XCT staff any stations?

 

[MCR247]

They don't operate any no, hence why EMT manage Melton etc and LM manage Water Orton

 

[DarloRich]

advice from those in the know please:

Am considering booking
Edinburgh 09:08 XC
Plymouth 17:43

What advice to make for pleasant travel. Is FC that much better than Standard for comfort - and what are the food options given that this is a very long journey?

And is there any merit at all in considering the faster (9hr 20) option with more changes, other than a stretch of legs and the excitement of not knowing whether each train would make the connections on time:

Edinburgh 07:42 TP
Preston (Lancs) 10:04

Preston (Lancs) 10:17 VT
Birmingham New Street 11:55

Birmingham New Street 12:12 XC
Plymouth 15:43

TBH I would try and get the 0608 of Edinburgh or the 0810 off Edinburgh as they are ( i think ) booked as HST. The jounrey will be MUCH nicer than on a stinking Voyager.

I cant talk about food offered in FC ( never doen a long journey FC) but i have had free tea and buscuits on the short runs. I would think that comfort wise it would be MUCH better in FC. Like as not you will get it almost to yourself for much of the journey.

I would always choose the HST diagrams for a long journey. No comparison with the Voyager. if you are not ready to kill someone by the time you reach Darlington you are a better man than me!

TOM - are you actually suggesting that a Voyager is a nice environment to be in? No matter the length of the train they are NOT suitable for the services they run. They rattle, vibrate, smell, the seats are made out of cardboard, the on board "service" is terrible, often they are rammed, the trim is going to start falling off anytime soon! Virgin WC voayagers are better ( but still sh*t!)

AS for HST reservation i think they do it the old fashioned way ( which doesnt crash or change halfway through your journey or just no work!) of putting a little ticket in the top of the seat!

 

[junglejames]

No i was completely serious about the HST's. They have been fine servants to the intercity brand and i hope that a complete set will find its way into the national collection. They saved British Rail in the late 70's / early 80's.

Yes, fine servants, and still the best Intercity train out there. Thats why replacing them now seems a very daft thing to do.
The day we manage to build as good a train, is the day i will be happy to see them replaced.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

the seats are made out of cardboard, the on board "service" is terrible, often they are rammed, the trim is going to start falling off anytime soon! Virgin WC voayagers are better ( but still sh*t!)

Oh come on, be fair now.
Cardboard is much more comfortable, and sh*t is more pleasant!!!!
Ok, perhaps that last bit was exagerated, but the cardboard bit wasnt.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think XC have done a fantastic job. If the Voyagers were all 8 car, everyone be saying what a pleasurable journey they had aboard.
A longer train would offer more seats, luggage space a better kitchen for 1st and room for a shop, everybody's happy! To prevent carting around some lovely fresh air at off peak cheap advance fares would be available.

XCs HSTs are fantastic inside, just a query why aren't the seat reservation displays used?

But that is making out as if everybody just hates them because they are always rammed full. I dont like them when they are empty. A lot of people can see past the fact they are too short. People actually have other problems with them. Noisy, full of rattles and vibrations (no good for Intercity journeys), cheap looking interior, horrible uncomfortable seats with horrible armrests, coaches that are too narrow, overhead racks that are so small that you struggle to fit a normal sized bag in them, The 'voyager' smell, which consists of stale sewage.

 

[WestCoast]

AS for HST reservation i think they do it the old fashioned way ( which doesnt crash or change halfway through your journey or just no work!) of putting a little ticket in the top of the seat!

Which is all very well until the printer breaks down at the origin, or someone forgets to put the tickets out, or the train is delayed on a turnover and there is no time to put them out like I've seen happening with EC at Leeds. Then of course people can remove them.

 

[DarloRich]

so then they just say - There are no reservations. It seems to have worked well for ohhhhhhhhh 30 years LOL

 

[WestCoast]

so then they just say - There are no reservations. It seems to have worked well for ohhhhhhhhh 30 years LOL

Yes well I'm just pointing out that the new system does actually have advantages and that the old system isn't perfect.
DB has actually retro fitted older stock with the new electronic system, which is an improvement if a good system is selected. It is called progress.

 

[tbtc]

Yes, fine servants, and still the best Intercity train out there

As has been explained, they are not suited to Cross Country routes, with regular stops/ little chance of running at 125mph for long stretches/ frequent acceleration/braking required. The fact is a full length HST cannot keep time with a Voyager. What more needs to be said?

 

[DarloRich]

Yes well I'm just pointing out that the new system does actually have advantages and that the old system isn't perfect.
DB has actually retro fitted older stock with the new electronic system, which is an improvement if a good system is selected. It is called progress.

when it works!

 

[junglejames]

Yes well I'm just pointing out that the new system does actually have advantages and that the old system isn't perfect.
DB has actually retro fitted older stock with the new electronic system, which is an improvement if a good system is selected. It is called progress.

The new system has its advantages, but so does the old system.
Your making out as if the new system takes away all the disadvantages of the old system, and has no disadvantages itself.

The old system fails less often. You can easily see if a seat is reserved even when outside the coach. Its easier to see what stations it is reserved between (albeit inside the coach now!).

The new system has about one or two advantages. Namely you can still get reservations even when you arrive heavily delayed, and people cant swap reservations around to suit them (however this makes little difference because most people will have their reservation coupon, so the guard can easily sort it the few times this happens). There are a few disadvantages though. Too difficult to read, more expensive to install. More liable to a failure.

All in all, i dont see the point in the auto system. It is no better than the old system overall, and it costs a lot more to install.

 

[StrollerEd]

TBH I would try and get the 0608 of Edinburgh or the 0810 off Edinburgh as they are ( i think ) booked as HST. The jounrey will be MUCH nicer than on a stinking Voyager.

I cant talk about food offered in FC ( never doen a long journey FC) but i have had free tea and buscuits on the short runs. I would think that comfort wise it would be MUCH better in FC. Like as not you will get it almost to yourself for much of the journey.

I would always choose the HST diagrams for a long journey. No comparison with the Voyager. if you are not ready to kill someone by the time you reach Darlington you are a better man than me!

AS for HST reservation i think they do it the old fashioned way ( which doesnt crash or change halfway through your journey or just no work!) of putting a little ticket in the top of the seat!

thank you. I will investigate. I'm also considering breaking the journey with an o/n in west London - but that's for anotehr thread.

 

[junglejames]

As has been explained, they are not suited to Cross Country routes, with regular stops/ little chance of running at 125mph for long stretches/ frequent acceleration/braking required. The fact is a full length HST cannot keep time with a Voyager. What more needs to be said?

They are less suited to current Crosscountry services because of all the extra stops that have been included. So its more a case of Virgin/ Arriva making HSTs less suitable.

But, there is still a lot more to be said, and a lot more to long distance Intercity operations than fast acceleration. Stuff that has already been said.

But you are totally right of course. Nothing more needs to be said because HSTs cannot keep up with a Voyager.
A Boeing 737 cannot keep up with a Tornado fighter jet, so its obvious that a Tornado fighter jet is more suited to a passenger flight from London to Edinburgh. Nothing more needs to be said.

An F1 car is more suited to a local trip down to the shops than a Ford Focus. Its obvious, because i could pull away from the traffic lights quicker. I will save myself a little bit of time. Nowt more to be said.

 

[StrollerEd]

yes, I see that there is an 08.10 on a weekday

innocent newbie question:
how did you know what type of train? not shown where I'm looking.

what would the equivalent be on a Saturday (or Sunday)?

 

[DarloRich]

As has been explained, they are not suited to Cross Country routes, with regular stops/ little chance of running at 125mph for long stretches/ frequent acceleration/braking required. The fact is a full length HST cannot keep time with a Voyager. What more needs to be said?

That Voyagers are horrible, tacky, plasticy pices of crap that arent fir for the XC service. oh and they often smell of pooh. How is that?

 

[WestCoast]

The new system has its advantages, but so does the old system.
Your making out as if the new system takes away all the disadvantages of the old system, and has no disadvantages itself.

The old system fails less often. You can easily see if a seat is reserved even when outside the coach. Its easier to see what stations it is reserved between (albeit inside the coach now!).

The new system has about one or two advantages. Namely you can still get reservations even when you arrive heavily delayed, and people cant swap reservations around to suit them (however this makes little difference because most people will have their reservation coupon, so the guard can easily sort it the few times this happens). There are a few disadvantages though. Too difficult to read, more expensive to install. More liable to a failure.

All in all, i dont see the point in the auto system. It is no better than the old system overall, and it costs a lot more to install.

The old system relies on someone putting the reservations out, if that doesn't happen, as is so often the case on certain operators, then it fails. If you don't think this is a problem they you never reserved a seat on TPE. The paper tickets have very small to and from writing so many people ignore that anyway. You might not see the point but other very large operators such as DB do. VT pendolinos see less failures than XC voyagers in my experience.

 

[DarloRich]

yes, I see that there is an 08.10 on a weekday

innocent newbie question:
how did you know what type of train? not shown where I'm looking.

what would the equivalent be on a Saturday (or Sunday)?

secret insider information! or here:

http://www.125group.org.uk/index.php?module=htmlpages&func=display&pid=30

 

[Daimler]

Which is all very well until the printer breaks down at the origin, or someone forgets to put the tickets out, or the train is delayed on a turnover and there is no time to put them out like I've seen happening with EC at Leeds. Then of course people can remove them.

I have to say, on my travels the complex electronic system has broken down far more often than the printer has stopped working at the origin of the train.

Despite this, my preferred system would be one fitted with electronic reservation displays, but also with a discreet system of red and green lights above each seat indicating whether the seat is reserved or not - thus enabling passengers entering the carriage to see at a glance the available seats.

As has been explained, they are not suited to Cross Country routes, with regular stops/ little chance of running at 125mph for long stretches/ frequent acceleration/braking required. The fact is a full length HST cannot keep time with a Voyager. What more needs to be said?

In terms of comfort, capacity, and possible passenger amenities, however, they are far better suited to the long-distance cross-country routes.

To me, this matters more than saving a few minutes on a three hour plus journey. In an ideal world, we'd have a fast accelerating train that was as nice inside as a HST, but failing that, I'd rather have the comfort.

 

[Smethwickian]

XC's problem, for me, is summed up by the fact the trolley on trains to Penzance seems to close somewhere in mid-Devon, around two and a half hours from the destination. The amount of time the catering people need for "staff changeover" at Plymouth is roughly the turnaround time of a space shuttle...

Well if you've even seen a trolley for part of the journey, lucky you!

Thinking back on my journeys on XC in the past three months - Edinburgh to Berwick, Newcastle to Birmingham, Birmingham to Derby (twice), Derby to Birmingham and Sheffield to Birmingham - I never saw a trolley once. And no, I'm not talking about travelling in the middle of the night.

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

Or the passengers who travel only between Newcastle and Durham need to be "encouraged" to catch local services instead.

There aren't that many local services, the hourly TPE? That's 3 carriages, and like XC runs a fair distance. Northern run a FEW locals early morning/late evening, and that only leaves EC...

 

[tbtc]

They are less suited to current Crosscountry services because of all the extra stops that have been included. So its more a case of Virgin/ Arriva making HSTs less suitable.

But, there is still a lot more to be said, and a lot more to long distance Intercity operations than fast acceleration. Stuff that has already been said.

But you are totally right of course. Nothing more needs to be said because HSTs cannot keep up with a Voyager.
A Boeing 737 cannot keep up with a Tornado fighter jet, so its obvious that a Tornado fighter jet is more suited to a passenger flight from London to Edinburgh. Nothing more needs to be said.

An F1 car is more suited to a local trip down to the shops than a Ford Focus. Its obvious, because i could pull away from the traffic lights quicker. I will save myself a little bit of time. Nowt more to be said.

As explained previously, the additional stops have generally come about because of other TOCs abandoning areas (e.g. Northern Spirit used to serve Chester le Street on their Newcastle - Darlington - Saltburn services, GNER served Dunbar more), rather than because Virgin/ Arriva wanted to slow their services down with these "local" stops.

There are other aspects to long distance travel than acceleration, but if a full length HST cannot match Voyager timings over the existing service then it's a bit of a meaningless debate.

Since XC aren't able to run 100 miles without stopping (which HSTs can do on other TOCs), then the Voyager is more suited to XC services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In terms of comfort, capacity, and possible passenger amenities, however, they are far better suited to the long-distance cross-country routes.

To me, this matters more than saving a few minutes on a three hour plus journey. In an ideal world, we'd have a fast accelerating train that was as nice inside as a HST, but failing that, I'd rather have the comfort.

I agree that HSTs are more comfortable, but there's no easy way to drop stops on XC services to allow HSTs to work better on them (who would pick up all of these stops if XC ceased serving them?)

 

[Zoe]

Since XC aren't able to run 100 miles without stopping (which HSTs can do on other TOCs), then the Voyager is more suited to XC services.

FGW use HSTs on semi-fast outer suburban commuter services though.