Pathfinder Railtours issues with West Coast Railway supplied rolling stock.

[DeepdalE1961]

Hello,
My first post on UK railway forums and not involved in the rail industry.
I had agreed a part fare ticket from Stroud on the Christmas Whistler excursion to Chester this Saturday, November 30.
I was informed by Pathfinder railtours today that the train had been cancelled.
Details were a bit vague, something to do with safety issues regarding the rolling stock used on their excursion to Edinburgh the previous weekend.
It has caused me some inconvenience as I had already booked my onward journey from Chester to Manchester, although I’m only a few pounds out of pocket.
Is the cancellation a smokescreen for lack of ticket sales?
These things happen, and the Pathfinder staff I spoke to were most helpful.
However it was very disappointing to have the tour cancelled at such short notice.

 

[Whistler40145]

40145 is currently stopped with electrical issues

 

[43096]

40145 is currently stopped with electrical issues

The cancellation is nothing to do with 40145.

From what has been posted elsewhere, Pathfinder have been unimpressed by the state of the stock from WCRC on last Saturday’s tour, with heating, lighting and toilet defects on the stock. WCRC have been unable to give guarantees about the state of the stock, so Pathfinder have cancelled as they are not prepared to accept that level of defects.

 

[DeepdalE1961]

Thanks for your reply Whistler
Yes I was aware of that and the excursion was due to be hauled by two class 37s throughout
I was seeking more information why the excursion had been cancelled at such short notice

 

[cambran]

40145 is currently stopped with electrical issues

It had been known for weeks that the 40 was to be replaced by 2x37 so that isn't the reason. I don't think they would have left it so late if it was ticket sales, as the the cost of cancellation at this stage will be high, including contacting everyone by post.
I was also booked on it and the letter from Pathfinder is very disappointingly vague 'unforeseen technical and operational reasons beyond our control'. The lady who rang me said it was due to problems on last Saturday's Edinburgh excursion and I wonder if someone on that train could indicate what the problems were. It seems to be related the coaches; could this be connected with the fact that WCR have taken over the stock from Riviera?

 

[cm39275]

I do feel sorry for pathfinder to be put in this position at such short notice as I was booked to travel as part of a group of 4 on this coming Saturday tour.

 

[JonathanH]

It seems to be related the coaches; could this be connected with the fact that WCR have taken over the stock from Riviera?

It seems that the Riviera standard class coaches have been allocated to various Polar Express trips. This leaves particularly standard class coaches coming from the WCRC fleet that didn't see a lot of use while WCRC was predominantly using Mark 1s.

 

[31160]

Hmm well that's not good, I'm fully onboard with saying WCRC stock isn't great because it isn't, but then again from memory Rivera wasn't that much better, I can clearly remember on 46 tour travelling in coach A we couldn't leave the seated area towards the toilet because when trying to slide the door the handle just span around

 

[JonathanH]

Yes, the odd thing is that the first class coaches used on Saturday were, with one exception, former Riviera coaches as they aren't needed for the Polar Express, and it is the standard class coaches that are the WCRC ones. You wonder how many standard class coaches were booked on these tours, whether customers would on balance be happy with the coaches as they are and the trains going ahead, rather than cancellations.

 

[45107]

Yes, the odd thing is that the first class coaches used on Saturday were, with one exception, former Riviera coaches as they aren't needed for the Polar Express, and it is the standard class coaches that are the WCRC ones. You wonder how many standard class coaches were booked on these tours, whether customers would on balance be happy with the coaches as they are and the trains going ahead, rather than cancellations.

Every TOC has a DOTE (Defective On Train Equipment) document that stipulates the action taken in the event of (believe it or not) defective on train equipment, such as lighting, train heating & toilets.
From memory (as I haven’t read it for a couple of years) the Rule Book states all trains MUST have working lighting at all times. Toilets & heating aren’t so restrictive but maybe are in a TOC DOTE.

For the purposes of this, West Coast are classed as a TOC & should have this documented. Commercial considerations should override the DOTE.

Would be interesting to see what the ORR have to say about it………

And passenger preference doesn’t override the Rule Book or DOTE

 

[45107]

Every TOC has a DOTE (Defective On Train Equipment) document that stipulates the action taken in the event of (believe it or not) defective on train equipment, such as lighting, train heating & toilets.
From memory (as I haven’t read it for a couple of years) the Rule Book states all trains MUST have working lighting at all times. Toilets & heating aren’t so restrictive but maybe are in a TOC DOTE.

For the purposes of this, West Coast are classed as a TOC & should have this documented. Commercial considerations should override the DOTE.

Would be interesting to see what the ORR have to say about it………

And passenger preference doesn’t override the Rule Book or DOTE

And to correct the message above.

Commercial considerations SHOULD NOT override the DOTE.

 

[cambran]

Yes, the odd thing is that the first class coaches used on Saturday were, with one exception, former Riviera coaches as they aren't needed for the Polar Express, and it is the standard class coaches that are the WCRC ones. You wonder how many standard class coaches were booked on these tours, whether customers would on balance be happy with the coaches as they are and the trains going ahead, rather than cancellations.

According to my booking confirmation there were only 3 standard class booked in the formation, with 6 firsts. Doesn't bode well for future railtours if WCR have let down Pathfinder in the same way they let down their own passengers in the summer by advertising the Jacobite when they had no chance of providing suitable stock.

 

[JonathanH]

And passenger preference doesn’t override the Rule Book or DOTE

Yes, that sounds right if the carriages are actually defective and can't be fixed, rather than at a small risk of being defective.

 

[45107]

Yes, that sounds right if the carriages are actually defective and can't be fixed, rather than at a small risk of being defective.

Speculation on my part, but I would suggest that conversations have taken place and the two parties cannot reach agreement on the suitability (or ortherwise) of the stock.
Not a good situation to be in.

 

[Rail Quest]

Yes, the odd thing is that the first class coaches used on Saturday were, with one exception, former Riviera coaches as they aren't needed for the Polar Express, and it is the standard class coaches that are the WCRC ones. You wonder how many standard class coaches were booked on these tours, whether customers would on balance be happy with the coaches as they are and the trains going ahead, rather than cancellations.

A mate of mine was on the tour and concurred that the first class carriage they were in wasn't too bad (though still a little cold). However, they said some of the standard carriages were absolutely freezing (not all of them, but some).

 

[renegademaster]

West coast/Railway Touring Company got a tour tomorrow.
Hopefully the set from Southall isn't the one that pathfinder are unhappy about.

 

[james_the_xv]

WCRC cutting corners? Never...

 

[fgwrich]

Yes, the odd thing is that the first class coaches used on Saturday were, with one exception, former Riviera coaches as they aren't needed for the Polar Express, and it is the standard class coaches that are the WCRC ones. You wonder how many standard class coaches were booked on these tours, whether customers would on balance be happy with the coaches as they are and the trains going ahead, rather than cancellations.

It did seem to be a somewhat odd rake, including a former Statesman standard class Mk2 in Pullman livery. West Coast did I see have at least 3 rakes of Mk2s out this weekend, as well as sorting out rakes for the Polar Express, so the fleet must have been somewhat stretched over the last weekend. I do wonder if moving everything up to Carnforth has had another negative effect on turning out these coaches - compared to their brief maintenance by Arlington when Riv kept their stock at Eastleigh, or Nemesis at Burton.

 

[Harpo]

That vehicles can be presented in an even worse condition than Riviera used to, is hard to conceive. Or maybe Pathfinder can finally speak up as it’s no longer joined at the hip to its stock provider?

I guess that UK railtours will be watching with interest too?

 

[peteb]

Railway Herald advises of cancellations and cites issues (see below). Apparently their 2025 tours are unaffected: can anyone confirm they still taking bookings for tours in eg: February 2025?

 

[Seagull2006]

Might be a bit of a later reply, but i happened to be on Pathfinder's Edinburgh Festive Explorer on the 23rd of November. I did notice that only 1 toilet was functioning on the train & heating on my coach (Coach B, which was a mk2) was barely functional, so it doesn't come as a suprise to me that pathfinder are irked at West Coast Railways whatsoever.

 

[JonathanH]

Polar Express commitments appear to be tying up around 20 standard class coaches.

 

[Whistler40145]

West Coast have shot themselves in the foot and should've fitted the Mk 1s with Central Door Locks

 

[43096]

Polar Express commitments appear to be tying up around 20 standard class coaches.

So essentially WCRC (and persumably Riviera) before have been committing to contracts that they cannot properly deliver. I would expect Pathfinder to be consulting lawyers, because it is a big hit to their business.

 

[renegademaster]

West Coast have shot themselves in the foot and should've fitted the Mk 1s with Central Door Locks

Probably would be cheaper to cancel one of the polar express contracts

 

[JonathanH]

West Coast have shot themselves in the foot and should've fitted the Mk 1s with Central Door Locks

They have sent some of those off to preserved railways for seasonal events as well though so not really.

Railway Herald advises of cancellations and cites issues (see below). Apparently their 2025 tours are unaffected: can anyone confirm they still taking bookings for tours in eg: February 2025?

The effective cause of the cancellations appears to be the Polar Express commitments in London and Edinburgh which are obviously seasonal, and the three standard class coaches that Pathfinder had been allocated not being fit for use. Once the Polar Express commitments conclude, the rolling stock is available for use on tours again.

 

[12LDA28C]

That vehicles can be presented in an even worse condition than Riviera used to, is hard to conceive. Or maybe Pathfinder can finally speak up as it’s no longer joined at the hip to its stock provider?

I guess that UK railtours will be watching with interest too?

It’s literally the same stock which WCRC have taken on from Riviera. The coaches are still suffering the same issues with lack of heating/air-con, lighting and toilet provision that they did before, which will come as a surprise to absolutely no-one. Apparently Pathfinder received a barrage of complaints and abuse from irate passengers after their most recent trip using ex-Riviera stock which led them to issue a statement threatening to ban anyone who does the same from participating in any future tours.

 

[JonathanH]

It’s literally the same stock which WCRC have taken on from Riviera.

6022 and 6021, which were the worst offenders, were WCRC coaches from before Riviera.

 

[Rail Ranger]

Ex-Riviera standard class Mark 2s have been have been hired out by WCRC for a Polar Express contract.

 

[12LDA28C]

This is the statement issued by Pathfinder: