Scotrail not accommodating delays on advance tickets

[Krokodil]

And, in the particular case of this thread, the guard would risk drawing attention to his commission generating operations.

I doubt that commission was the motivation. After tax it would have been roughly the price of a chocolate bar. This is a training issue (compunded by a byzantine system which is too complicated for the staff, let alone the passengers).

 

[AdamWW]

I doubt that commission was the motivation. After tax it would have been roughly the price of a chocolate bar. This is a training issue (compunded by a byzantine system which is too complicated for the staff, let alone the passengers).

The system is complicated, but there are some fairly simple rules which shouldn't be too hard to learn, and I'd argue that the fact that splitting tickets doesn't mean you lose any rights is one.

 

[Class800]

The Guard was at fault.

It should be considered a serious matter to do what this Guard did.


If there is any suggestion that the system is in any way too "complex" for a Guard, then the idea that the customers should be charged if in doubt is utterly absurd, if that is what you are suggesting.

If in any doubt, you must NOT charge the customer.

If Scotrail do not treat it as a serious matter, then that is a major failing on their part, but I'm not going to have the seriousness of this be downplayed on this forum.

Totally agree. In fact we could play it UP more rather than down and say that acting in he way he did is verbal abuse and threatening conduct towards customers, but I know that wouldn't be a popular view in some quarters. Simply - he was wrong and you should get the extra fare back with an apology, and I'd hope for a complimentary if Scotrail do them.

 

[williamn]

The system is complicated, but there are some fairly simple rules which shouldn't be too hard to learn, and I'd argue that the fact that splitting tickets doesn't mean you lose any rights is one.

Yes I came (back) to say this. The fare system is very complicated but the principle of accommodating delayed passengers on the next available train is a very simple one.

 

[AdamWW]

Yes I came (back) to say this. The fare system is very complicated but the principle of accommodating delayed passengers on the next available train is a very simple one.

All to often in my view the complexity of the ticket system is used to justify staff not understanding the basics.

 

[yorkie]

I doubt that commission was the motivation. After tax it would have been roughly the price of a chocolate bar. This is a training issue

Breaking a contract my employer entered into with a customer, by applying the opposite of the documented rules, and claiming that is a "training issue" in any job I've ever done.

(compunded by a byzantine system which is too complicated for the staff, let alone the passengers).

As above, when disruption occurs, if any staff find the rules complicated then the only default action they is remotely viable is to allow the passenger to be conveyed.

Anything else brings the industry into disrepute.

 

[Krokodil]

Breaking a contract my employer entered into with a customer, by applying the opposite of the documented rules, and claiming that is a "training issue" in any job I've ever done.

Have those documented rules been communicated effectively to the Scotrail Conductor? Do they know where to find information?

I've no idea what the training regime at Scotrail is like (and nor do you) so we cannot discount the possiblity that the company has failed to do its job and teach their staff, or have even been teaching the wrong thing. I could point to bits in my own training which were lacking (or just plain wrong), and I am aware that some TOCs have much shorter guards' courses than mine so they must be skimping on something to condense them.

 

[Buzby]

Having spoken to some guards in the past, it appears that the training given varied widely between the franchise holders (Nat Express / First Group then Abellio) when ScotRail morphed into the operator of last resort training changed markedly, and J wonder if this could have been where the ‘misunderstanding’ arose?

It would be interesting if someone in the front line could confirm in this is still the case, as clearly this has to be addressed quickly.

 

[yorkie]

Have those documented rules been communicated effectively to the Scotrail Conductor? Do they know where to find information?

I would not act in a hostile manner towards a customer against information published on my own employers website.

I've no idea what the training regime at Scotrail is like (and nor do you) so we cannot discount the possiblity that the company has failed to do its job and teach their staff,

But then you don't default to breaking the contact by charging your customers, at least not if you're a remotely sensible person.

or have even been teaching the wrong thing. I could point to bits in my own training which were lacking (or just plain wrong), and I am aware that some TOCs have much shorter guards' courses than mine so they must be skimping on something to condense them.

If training is lacking, you err on the side of caution, not act irresponsibility.

 

[Krokodil]

If training is lacking, you err on the side of caution, not act irresponsibility.

And if the training is plain wrong? Not just that you haven't been told something but that you have been told (and accepted) the wrong thing to be true.

I'm not defending the Scotrail guard, I would have handled things very differently (for a start in the event of a dispute with the passenger I show them a copy of the conditions and talk them through how I am applying them). What I am doing is asking for Scotrail themselves not to be let off of the hook. The training and management of their staff is their responsibility.

 

[yorkie]

And if the training is plain wrong?

Is there seriously a suggestion that staff are trained to renege on contracts when connections are missed due to major storms?

Not just that you haven't been told something but that you have been told (and accepted) the wrong thing to be true.

I don't think the training is going to be so granular as to insist that passengers actually be charged in such a situation; is the training really so bad that trainers actually go round instructing trainees to do that? If you have witnessed such behaviour, have you reported it, and what happened (probably deserves a new thread!)

I'm not defending the Scotrail guard, I would have handled things very differently (for a start in the event of a dispute with the passenger I show them a copy of the conditions and talk them through how I am applying them). What I am doing is asking for Scotrail themselves not to be let off of the hook. The training and management of their staff is their responsibility.

I agree that Scotrail should not be let off the hook; they have failed to ensure that appropriate people are hired for the role, failed to implement appropriate training and failed to implement appropriate safeguards to ensure staff are acting appropriately.

But it's common sense not to act as this Guard did, for any remotely reasonable/sensible person.

 

[Hadders]

Based on what we've been told in this thread the guard is clearly wrong.

The ticketing system can be complex, on a network the size of Britain's there's always going to be some complexity. Guards are railway professionals who should be aware of this sort of thing. Mistakes can happen and that's fine, but this really isn't an edge case - somebody travelling on the wrong train because of an earluer delay is not an unusual occurrance.

 

[WAB]

Although not in this case, as I believe the rejected advance ticket was for another ScotRail service, how does a TOC receive compensation, where ticket acceptance has not been arranged, for carrying a passenger who has been delayed by another TOC?

Personally, I detest TOC only tickets for this very reason. They have the potential to cause major grief to the travelling public - often unnecessary grief. I recently had a lady present a LNER Only ticket on my local train to Perth (it was a 1st class from York to Inverness), when pointing out it was not valid she explained she had been delayed and missed her connection (the last, and in fact only, LNER connection of the day). I offered to excess her ticket to the any permitted (not technically allowed but it would allow her unhindered travel after Perth) for a few pounds (about £3 IIRC) but she refused complaining about the poor 1st Class offering on ScotRail. I left it at that. I had enough to deal with catching the pay when challenged (this was a stopping service) and toilet dwelling fraternity. We later had a bit of a chat and parted on very good terms. I hope that she left with a positive view of rail travel despite her delayed journey. But think on this: she travelled for over 150 miles on my company yet we received no revenue from the passenger. Another company received that revenue, let her down, yet keeps that revenue. Yet the difference between the flexible any permitted and the TOC only was only a few pounds less - no real saving at all - but fraught with risk.

As @Watershed has said, you had an obligation to permit her to travel on your service. Just think of it as the railway failing to deliver, then asking for even more money despite the delay and the inferior accommodation. I don't think she'll have been left with a positive impression of the railway.

As for the fairness of the situation, I imagine LNER have bailed out Scotrail a few times in return. I don't think there are many who keep score when it comes to ticket acceptance these days.

 

[SuspectUsual]

This is a training issue (compunded by a byzantine system which is too complicated for the staff, let alone the passengers)

The system is complicated, but there are some fairly simple rules which shouldn't be too hard to learn, and I'd argue that the fact that splitting tickets doesn't mean you lose any rights is one

Have those documented rules been communicated effectively to the Scotrail Conductor? Do they know where to find information?

I've worked in retail for the last 17 years and throughout that time all comms and training to customer facing staff has focused on and highlighted the "hot topics" of the time. So for example when the legislation changed around the sale of tobacco, paracetamol, alcohol (in Scotland only) etc there were regular, simple, bullet-pointed comms and briefing sessions. Dead simple.

In a railway context I'd say the single hottest topic over recent years for staff checking tickets is the surge in popularity of split tickets, and the way that they are dealt with. It seems crazy that basic stuff about this isn't being briefed to staff, and likelier that the conductor ballsed it up and then doubled down on the mistake

 

[zero]

I recently had a lady present a LNER Only ticket on my local train to Perth (it was a 1st class from York to Inverness),


...she refused complaining about the poor 1st Class offering on ScotRail...


But think on this: she travelled for over 150 miles on my company yet we received no revenue from the passenger. Another company received that revenue, let her down, yet keeps that revenue.

Well, a year or so back I had an Aberdeen to Kings Cross 1st advance with ABD-EDB on Scotrail. That morning I discovered my Scotrail train was cancelled. Ordinarily I think I would have been expected to take the next Scotrail service and then the next LNER from Edinburgh.

But I turned up at Aberdeen station an hour early and asked the TM of the through LNER service if I could take his train instead. He said yes and wrote something on the tickets (can't remember why I had paper tickets) so the TMs from Edinburgh and York would accept me too. As I arrived earlier than planned there was no DR to claim.

Scotrail likely kept their portion of the revenue from my ticket without having provided the travel, and LNER gave me the better 1st class service for the Scottish portion of my journey for free (in fact the catering host kept insisting I take more packaged snacks - probably cost LNER about £5 they didn't need to spend on me) - cancelling out the loss made on your passenger.

Not sure if all TOCs roughly break even from these sorts of situations, or whether some have a net gain and others have a net loss.

 

[williamn]

To be fair to Scotrail they’ve gone over and above in accepting tickets before. LNER has a habit of cancelling Aberdeen - Edinburgh trains and providing coaches (no thanks, esp when I’ve bought a first class ticket) but no ticket acceptance on Scotrail. In these cases my ticket has always been accepted on Scotrail so I think this was just one bad egg.

 

[Class800]

Yep but one bad egg or apple can you know contaminate a whole batch - which is why my parents taught me if you have one bad apple in the fruit bowl throw it away otherwise the whole bowl will be rotten soon. Generally I have had good experiences with Scotrail though!

 

[Merle Haggard]

Yep but one bad egg or apple can you know contaminate a whole batch - which is why my parents taught me if you have one bad apple in the fruit bowl throw it away otherwise the whole bowl will be rotten soon. Generally I have had good experiences with Scotrail though!

Indeed, as you say, that's the point of the sayings.
That seems to have been lost on contemporary media users - for example; corruption in public organisations - where 'one bad apple' seems to be used by commentators to mean 'there's only one corrupt person, the rest are honest' from the context they use it in.
And I've totally given up hope on 'decimated'

 

[Gonzoiku]

And I've totally given up hope on 'decimated'

I reckon 10% get it right!

GZ

 

[185143]

To be fair to Scotrail they’ve gone over and above in accepting tickets before. LNER has a habit of cancelling Aberdeen - Edinburgh trains and providing coaches (no thanks, esp when I’ve bought a first class ticket) but no ticket acceptance on Scotrail. In these cases my ticket has always been accepted on Scotrail so I think this was just one bad egg.

Last time I went to Aberdeen there had been a fatality down South, the LNER service I was intending to catch was around 3.5 hours late.

So we caught a ScotRail service. The TM was very, very keen to make clear that there was no ticket acceptance with LNER and that anyone with an LNER ticket had to wait for the Azuma which IIRC was still at York on the wrong side of the incident.

I had a rover, so I was fine. My friend had an LNER advance. Thankfully the ScotRail station manager at Edinburgh was far more reasonable and issued an Authority to Travel as we were connecting onto the ferry for Shetland, which we'd have missed otherwise.