Merseyrail fine - claim original ticket cost back

[lufi]

My partner and I have been caught out by the predicament which looks to have affected many. I bought a return ticket from Birkdale to Liverpool Central with a two together railcard on the LNER app, as that is who we travel with the most and use the app often. We are not locals and almost never pass through Liverpool so unaware of Merseyrail and their ways. I did not think to look at the ticket after buying it because it being 2024, most tickets are e-tickets and I can't think of a time I had to print tickets off recently. At the gates I opened the app to scan the e-ticket - there was none. I spoke to a member of staff about printing it off and he said - "Speak to my colleague here who will help you". Of course we were picked off by "revenue protection" and slapped with £50 fines for both of us plus £8.20 each for the ticket, great help. There was no reasoning with them, he said that the unprinted ticket will be auto refunded - I said this was untrue with LNER but he didn't accept. The other line of argument is similarly silly, I'd have to find another pair of people with a two together railcard to pass the ticket on to reuse quite late on in the day.

It's obvious we'll have to pay the fine, from my googling Merseyrail doesn't appear to ever budge on this even though a modicum of personal discretion was due. I want to know what will happen to the original £11.20 we paid for the return ticket. Why should they get to double charge us and get away with it?

We did not pay the fine on the spot as wanted to research the situation first. It seems appeal will be futile. I will be sending a complaint to the Rail Ombudsman to get Merseyrail to get with the times and accept e-tickets (equally futile but will soothe my soul). Are there any other ways in which I can cause a nuisance for Merseyrail?

16.07 from Birkdale to Liverpool Central. Ticket purchased on LNER prior to commencing journey.

 

[island]

The unused ticket can be refunded via the original retailer, potentially subject to an admin fee.

 

[methecooldude]

Does Birkdale not have any barriers?
Either way, when you purchased your ticket on the LNER app, it does tell you that it needs collecting

 

[lufi]

Birkdale is a station that doesn't have barriers

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not only has this cost a PF but the ticket has cost more than you needed to pay - a DaySaver would be valid for this at about a quid less than an Anytime Day Single/Return as it doesn't appear to be a morning peak journey.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Does Birkdale not have any barriers?
Either way, when you purchased your ticket on the LNER app, it does tell you that it needs collecting

For me, the wording on the LNER should be a bit clearer - something like "you MUST collect your physical ticket, there is no e-ticket for this journey". As it stands it reads more like something the passenger can do, not something they have to do - especially because this is very much an exception for LNER and presumably therefore also for users of their app

 

[lufi]

Not only has this cost a PF but the ticket has cost more than you needed to pay - a DaySaver would be valid for this at about a quid less than an Anytime Day Single/Return as it doesn't appear to be a morning peak journey.

Like I said, we're not from there, just doing what we know :/

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Nov 2024 ==

The unused ticket can be refunded via the original retailer, potentially subject to an admin fee.

Not much use if you want to use the return portion, also I wouldn't bother with a £10/ticket admin fee

 

[M28361M]

Not only has this cost a PF but the ticket has cost more than you needed to pay - a DaySaver would be valid for this at about a quid less than an Anytime Day Single/Return as it doesn't appear to be a morning peak journey.

The OP used a Two Together Railcard so in this case it was slightly cheaper to buy a normal ticket. Anytime Day Return Birkdale-Liverpool is £5.55 each with a Railcard. Day Saver is £6.20 (no Railcard discounts available).

@lufi may be able to appeal on a technicality - for example, if the penalty fare notice was not issued correctly. Post suitably-redacted scans of the paperwork here and one of the forum experts will be able to advise.

 

[lufi]

I don’t think there’s much use trying to dispute this as, legally, we did the wrong thing. Not sure there’s any use to appeal to their humanity to use discretion. I’d just like to get the original ticket refunded because it’s not right we should pay them twice, and get on with life.

 

[AlterEgo]

Can we see the whole notice? This is very important (you don't need to show your own details).

Sometimes, the notice omits your entitlement to a receipt upon payment of the Penalty Fare, for example, which is valid and incontestable grounds for appeal.

 

[furlong]

You absolutely should appeal because situations like yours may form part of a government review, so that this happened needs to be recorded.

Another limb of the appeal would be that the officer who issued it failed in his duty to consider whether or not to apply discretion by stating that he was taking into account imaginary events that had not and would not actually occur - i.e. by assuming you were going to commit a criminal offence by refunding or reusing the ticket if he used his discretion.

If your appeals go nowhere, you should also take this up through your MP, perhaps putting them in touch with the other MP who recently raised problems with Merseyrail in parliament (mentioned on another thread recently - someone will no doubt supply the link).

 

[JBuchananGB]

Birkdale does not have barriers. It does have a staffed ticket office from which pre-ordered tickets can be collected. It also has a prominent poster explaining that tickets bought online need to be printed before boarding the train. There are cheaper ways for Railcard holders to get tickets valid from Birkdale to Liverpool than buying Anytime Day Returns, but these are not obvious to visitors, and I only figured them out after I moved to live in Lancashire, near Birkdale station but not in Merseyside. If I had been making that trip with a two Together Railcard the total return fare for both people would have been £8.20, the same as the anytime day single for one person from Birkdale to Liverpool.
In the past it has been reported that passengers arriving at Liverpool Central with a collection code have been given one chance to go to the ticket desk there to collect their ticket. It sounds as though the policy might have changed to issuing penalty fares without any tolerance.
By the way, I assume you did then go and collect your tickets, so you had them for the return trip.

 

[lufi]

Thanks everybody, here’s the full notice. Will try an appeal, as they say where we’re from, shy bairns get nowt!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Nov 2024 ==

Birkdale does not have barriers. It does have a staffed ticket office from which pre-ordered tickets can be collected. It also has a prominent poster explaining that tickets bought online need to be printed before boarding the train. There are cheaper ways for Railcard holders to get tickets valid from Birkdale to Liverpool than buying Anytime Day Returns, but these are not obvious to visitors, and I only figured them out after I moved to live in Lancashire, near Birkdale station but not in Merseyside. If I had been making that trip with a two Together Railcard the total return fare for both people would have been £8.20, the same as the anytime day single for one person from Birkdale to Liverpool.
In the past it has been reported that passengers arriving at Liverpool Central with a collection code have been given one chance to go to the ticket desk there to collect their ticket. It sounds as though the policy might have changed to issuing penalty fares without any tolerance.
By the way, I assume you did then go and collect your tickets, so you had them for the return trip.

Yes we did collect the tickets. So effectively got charged twice for the same journey but that’s the least of our problem here.

 

[AlterEgo]

As far as I can tell the notice appears compliant - unless any other users can spot anything?

 

[JBuchananGB]

The OP and friend can at least submit as evidence a copy of the ticket which they DID collect. Although this does not get away from the fact that when issued with the PF they were unable to produce it. As I previously mentioned, it seems MerseyRail have cracked down on this. They used to send people with ToD codes to the ticket desk at Liverpool Central to collect their tickets. They watched them like a hawk, and for those who then headed straight for the exit without collecting their ticket were smartly apprehended.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The OP and friend can at least submit as evidence a copy of the ticket which they DID collect. Although this does not get away from the fact that when issued with the PF they were unable to produce it. As I previously mentioned, it seems MerseyRail have cracked down on this. They used to send people with ToD codes to the ticket desk at Liverpool Central to collect their tickets. They watched them like a hawk, and for those who then headed straight for the exit without collecting their ticket were smartly apprehended.

The change may well coincide with them making it possible to pick up tickets at their booking offices. Before there was a case for being lenient because people wouldn't have any way to pick it up at all.

 

[lufi]

Unsurprisingly, the appeal was rejected. There’s no use appealing to their humanity to be lenient when there was clearly no criminal intent. We’ll go ahead with a letter to our MP (Louise Haigh, ironically).

 

[gray1404]

Submit a second appeal if you wish.