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The Labour Party under Andy Burnham
- Thread starter Cowley
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Of course they are. Even if there were that many upset people ignoring democracy and demanding a new election on a whim, it's doubtful they could have been found and asked to sign it that quickly. Bots can digitally sign in milliseconds and repeat over and over.
Anyway, what was it they said after Brexit or the Scotland referendum? You can't just keep having a new vote. You lost, get over it, will of the people etc.
Personally, I think the bizarre overreactions from the right wing press is suggesting Labour must be doing something right. I never saw them so vocal about things that impacted the working and middle classes, but start to make changes that impact the richer people and all hell breaks loose.
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Who are these richer people that I keep reading about?
There must be a lot of them in the UK but can't say I know any?
I know plenty of people who aren't concerned about recessions, cost of living issues or anything that impacts most people. I used to work for one, who took a lower salary than me (all income was paid for in expenses, dividends and so on) and is now on LinkedIn moaning about the plight of the farmers despite not being a farmer and likely never having been near a farm.
Before I left, he'd accrued a pretty impressive portfolio of properties he rents out, so I am sure he'll be moaning if and when landlords get impacted and claiming to be on the poverty line.
Now, I'm not going to say he's done anything wrong or illegal, and he's taken advantage of the laws over the years to his best advantage. I have no doubt anyone would, but it does get me that all of a sudden the threat of higher taxes for the well off is leading to a concentrated effort to suggest the Labour party must be ousted. Heck, even Elon Musk's dad said the PM must resign within three months because he's taken us back 400 years - whatever that means.
(as an aside, does anyone know why the father of Elon Musk was even asked for his opinion by the UK media? Or indeed why Elon himself is showing signs of wanting to get involved with UK politics just as he's gotten himself heavily entwined with Trump?)
BrokenSam
Member
They are.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Not many, but they have a lot of influence - including over the media who can sway others to act against their own better interests.
Shrop
Established Member
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Well you could start with the 3 million pensioners. Did you know that almost a third of ALL people over the age of 65 are millionaires, if you include the value of the house they live in?
That sounds doubtful, what is your source?
Pension pot plus house can easily top £1m especially in affluent areas with higher property prices.
But that’s all ‘on paper’ of course and the phrase ‘asset rich, cash poor’ can well apply.
Shrop
Established Member
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There are many sources if you Google it ...
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It's not including the pension pot because that isn't yet paid. It's just the assets you have already, ie house, car(s), savings and other belongings.
Recently HM Revenue and Customs published data on ISAs up to end of the 2022/23 tax year.
There is over £700 billion saved in ISAs (section 1.3).
Over 6 million over 65s have ISAs with an average holding of more than £60k (section 1.5). This means that about half of all ISA savings is held by over 65s. Chart 8 suggests that the median holding is only a bit above £25k, so there are a quite a few people with very big ISA portfolios.
Separate HMRC data shows that there are between 4k and 5k ISA millionaires. I can't find that direct from HMRC, but it has been reported widely by various reputable financial media.
No, it does include pension pots. As we've seen by the Government making changes to the inheritance treatment of private pensions, they are an inheritable asset.
Golden oldies: Are one in five pensioners millionaires? – Full Fact
A quarter of over 65s live in households with wealth above a million pounds.
fullfact.org
DarloRich
Veteran Member
it is nonsense driven by bad actors. The next election will take place not later than August 2029. We all know the rules regarding elections in this country and how they work.
brad465
Veteran Member
Given Musk shared it on his platform (so much for being focused on the US government), this will be a good test of not only how many are bots, but how many "signatures" came from abroad. I expect the site needs serious reform to make it more secure, but of course doing it straight after this will get shouted down as "authoritarian", "anti-free speech", etc.
The onus is on you to cite your source for the claim you made, not for anyone else to spend time searching for it.
I think it could be classed as common knowledge. Sometimes the onus is on the doubter to show something is not true.
Even the Daily Mail mentioned it as far back as 2014 - ' One in ten pensioner households is worth more than £1million'.
That says "live in households with wealth above a million pounds", not that they are millionaires.No, it does include pension pots. As we've seen by the Government making changes to the inheritance treatment of private pensions, they are an inheritable asset.
Golden oldies: Are one in five pensioners millionaires? – Full Fact
A quarter of over 65s live in households with wealth above a million pounds.
By that misinterpretation, a household consisting of four people with an average wealth of just over £250k each would be misinterpreted as a household of four millionaires, whereas in reality there are obviously no millionaires in that household.
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You might want to research the burden of proof fallacy.
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Fists of all, the Daily Mail is not the most reliable source. Secondly, that quotes does not say that a quarter of individual pensioners are millionaires.
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Shrop
Established Member
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There are many sources. Since you seem to find the task onerous, a 10 second search on Google using the words "How many millionaire pensioners are in the UK" reveals many sources giving the same information. One of these is www.telegraph.co.uk.
First of all, it's not a question of finding it "onerous", it's a question of whose responsibility it is. You were the one who made the claim.
Doing a quick search, most of the results relate to households, which as I already pointed does not mean that a quarter of pensioners are millionaires. Whether you have a source that actually says what you claim, or whether you are making the same misinterpretation, is impossible to verify unless you actually cite the source you were basing your claim on.
Are you expecting another to spend time looking that up ?
I haven't made an assertion, so I have nothing to prove.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof would be a good place to start.
Full of bots and nonsense, been pimped around the USA's wingnut loony factions as well.The strength of feeling amongst the nation, driven by the current Government's stances since coming to power, is exemplified in a petition which - in its first 24 hours - has gathered more than 1.5 million signees.
Petition: Call a General Election
I would like there to be another General Election. I believe the current Labour Government have gone back on the promises they laid out in the lead up to the last election.petition.parliament.uk
Sun Chariot
Established Member
The irony is, that the number of "signees" in this petition, is as massaged as Reeves' pre-Budget declared "fiscal black hole".
Or her pre-parliamentary CV....
DarloRich
Veteran Member
another story put about by bad actors to cause bother and allow the right wing media structure to whip something up. She has a masters degree in economics from the London School of Economics.
(Strucutre: "Tufton Street" > Social Media influencer > GBN > Faragist commentor > Express/ Mail > Torygraph > BBC reports reporting > Faragist comment and repeat steps 3 to 5 until next story comes along)
Merle Haggard
Established Member
Is it surprising that retired people have savings? I worked from 19 to 70 (part time before that) and saved for my old age, being sceptical about the likelihood of a pension being enough to live on, from the experience of old people I knew then. Is it wrong to have saved ? Should I have spent my earnings on short-life consumer goods and cars, and expensive holidays instead?
Same with wealth purely the result of owning my house. How can I liquidate that wealth into cash and spend it?
Same with wealth purely the result of owning my house. How can I liquidate that wealth into cash and spend it?
Of couse property is an illiquid asset, but it is still an asset nonetheless
If one person decided to put 200k into a tracker when he was 30 and rent where he lives, and the other decided to put 200k into a property and live there and then 35 years later the tracker is worth 1 million and the house is worth 1 million. They both have a million quid worth of assets.
If one person decided to put 200k into a tracker when he was 30 and rent where he lives, and the other decided to put 200k into a property and live there and then 35 years later the tracker is worth 1 million and the house is worth 1 million. They both have a million quid worth of assets.
One (presumably) has somewhere to live and £1m cash, the other has somewhere to live.
Correct. They both have 1m assets though