Cross Country treating customers as sardines

[Merle Haggard]

In my opinion, telling passengers waiting at New Street and intending to travel to International and Coventry not to board the train (by stating that it didn't stop there) is not a bad idea; the next service for them is one 3 minutes later, an 8 car 350 to Euston which, although probably busy, would be possible to board without crowding off long distance passengers.
Of course, one may wonder why XC offers cheap tickets New St to International on this train if they're concerned about overcrowding.

 

[Mogz]

Well, probably because the DfT dictate what trains can run and where. Nova 3s I thought were destined for Chiltern to replace Mk3s. Cannot see the 222s being released in next 8 months, maybe longer. But even then, they can't work in multiple with a 220/221. Okay, maybe there is potential for double sets, but that means more crew, plus the set maybe too long for certain stations.

Yep.

There’s always a reason why “it can’t be done”.

DfT blame the TOC…
TOC blame the DfT…

Repeat ad nauseum…

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Nov 2024 ==

In my opinion, telling passengers waiting at New Street and intending to travel to International and Coventry not to board the train (by stating that it didn't stop there) is not a bad idea; the next service for them is one 3 minutes later, an 8 car 350 to Euston which, although probably busy, would be possible to board without crowding off long distance passengers.
Of course, one may wonder why XC offers cheap tickets New St to International on this train if they're concerned about overcrowding.

Maybe, but very few people actually got off in the end and the train is still packed, which rather puts to bed the suggestion that the problem is caused by those making short journeys.

There are people on here who have been standing since before Wolverhampton and were nearly at Banbury!

Having to stand is one thing (the conditions of carriage have never guaranteed a seat), being unable to board (or unable to breathe if you do) is quite another.

 

[Trainman40083]

Yep.

There’s always a reason why “it can’t be done”.

DfT blame the TOC…
TOC blame the DfT…

Repeat ad nauseum…

It all screams that the real problem statement has not been identified. Maybe new 8 car IEP bimodes are needed, with a better designed interior. Interesting to note the previous Manchester to Bournemouth was a 9 car until cancelled at Birmingham. Visions of two sets of people arguing as to who has the right to the reserved seats

 

[Mogz]

It all screams that the real problem statement has not been identified. Maybe new 8 car IEP bimodes are needed, with a better designed interior. Interesting to note the previous Manchester to Bournemouth was a 9 car until cancelled at Birmingham. Visions of two sets of people arguing as to who has the right to the reserved seats

IEPs would be ideal for XC in my opinion. Better legroom, more coaches, more seats, no more running diesel under the wires, and in their most recent iteration (the Avanti version), better seats.

 

[Merle Haggard]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Nov 2024 ==


Maybe, but very few people actually got off in the end and the train is still packed, which rather puts to bed the suggestion that the problem is caused by those making short journeys.

There are people on here who have been standing since before Wolverhampton and were nearly at Banbury!

Point taken - and I know from experience the everyday wedge; just thinking of trying to dissuade passengers for those two stations from boarding, rather than evicting people already on then train. I have no idea how many there were, of course.
Looking at RTT it seems to have made both booked calls - having got everyone off it would have made sense to turn right at Grand Junction with its late running.

 

[LCC106]

Just that really. And it’s not unusual.

Train crew trying to reduce overcrowding by telling passengers that the train is no longer stopping at International or Coventry.

Cue mass scrum as people with multiple suitcases try to get off.

Still too many people for the service.

Why oh why has this service been allowed to operate with only four or (as in this case) five coaches?

People say there’s no money for new or different rolling stock. It’s been this way for years and years.

The demand is clearly there.

Why should we have to out up with this ludicrous standard of service on some of the longest services in the UK?

I wonder if the staff ever tell their managers about this sort of thing?

What this means is:

1. Revenue protection checks can’t be carried out;
2. The train has been delayed;
3. The trolly can’t get through;
4. Elderly people with reserved seats can’t get to them and are having to stand.

Utter disgrace. Might be acceptable if it was occasional, but this isn’t- it’s regular.

I take it as a caring human being you stepped off the service to allow a vulnerable member of the public to take your place. Great job!

 

[swt_passenger]

12 x 221s from Avanti west coast are arriving with XC, as discussed in dozens of other threads. Anything else, such as bi-mode IEPs, is all but impossible.

 

[yorkie]

Please post any speculative posts in the appropriate forum section

 

[Kite159]

Giving XC extra units is one thing, but they also need more staff to avoid the farce of seeing a double voyager running around with the rear set out of use because they haven't got staff (catering?) to look after the front set.

 

[Haywain]

Why oh why has this service been allowed to operate with only four or (as in this case) five coaches?

Would a cancellation have been better than a 5 coach train?

 

[Mogz]

I take it as a caring human being you stepped off the service to allow a vulnerable member of the public to take your place. Great job!

Yes, from the middle of the carriage this would have been possible/practical…. if I was travelling on a Mk 1.

I regularly give up my seat (if I’m lucky enough to get one) if I see someone who needs one, so less of the sarcasm, please!

 

[LCC106]

Yes, from the middle of the carriage this would have been possible/practical…. if I was travelling on a Mk 1.

I regularly give up my seat (if I’m lucky enough to get one) if I see someone who needs one, so less of the sarcasm, please!

No sarcasm, genuine question. I too give up my seat or would make space for those more vulnerable by getting off the train. Sadly not everyone does.

Conductor on my local service asked someone to remove their bag from the seat yesterday. I didn’t hear the reply, but he rather loudly said it was unfair for 20 people to be standing. He asked another person to remove her bag. She said she would but didn’t. Lots of self entitled people out there today!

 

[Mogz]

Meanwhile in Germany…

German trains introduce ‘smooch cabins’ and digital seat ‘towels’

State operator Deutsche Bahn will also allow passengers to reserve seats with ‘digital towels’

www.euronews.com

 

[KnobbyGB]

The Voyagers, or indeed the class 22Xs in general are not so bad. The big problem is that they were never, for financial reasons, long enough.

I agree. I actually like them - when they're not over-crowded. It's not the fault of the stock, but of the way they are operated. The 22x seating is quite comfortable, certainly compared to 80x. The first class is one of the best, after the old Mk3 and Mk4 still in use, of course and the service in there is excellent. I really feel sorry for XC staff who have to deal with so many rightly disgruntled pax. The ones I've come into contact with seem really professional and helpful.

Replacing 22x like-for-like by 80x (the same length of train) would simply make it slightly less horrible having to stand in the vestibule - at least you wouldn't get off with back ache! I've no confidence that the new trains would be longer - just because we all know they need to be. I think we all know it doesn't work like that in the UK any more.

I'm not living in the UK any more so don't follow everything on this subject, although I visit once or twice a year. What is the reliability of the Voyagers like? It seems OK from what I've seen. I don't remember seeing a cancellation due to technical reasons but I may just have been lucky.

 

[Mogz]

I agree. I actually like them - when they're not over-crowded. It's not the fault of the stock, but of the way they are operated. The 22x seating is quite comfortable, certainly compared to 80x. The first class is one of the best, after the old Mk3 and Mk4 still in use, of course and the service in there is excellent. I really feel sorry for XC staff who have to deal with so many rightly disgruntled pax. The ones I've come into contact with seem really professional and helpful.

Replacing 22x like-for-like by 80x (the same length of train) would simply make it slightly less horrible having to stand in the vestibule - at least you wouldn't get off with back ache! I've no confidence that the new trains would be longer - just because we all know they need to be. I think we all know it doesn't work like that in the UK any more.

I'm not living in the UK any more so don't follow everything on this subject, although I visit once or twice a year. What is the reliability of the Voyagers like? It seems OK from what I've seen. I don't remember seeing a cancellation due to technical reasons but I may just have been lucky.

I agree- they are certainly trains that never reached their potential.

Because they’re mechanically reliable that were stuck with them.

If they had been a fleet of 7-9 coach trains with an inch or two of extra leg room and 8 tables per carriage they would have been perfect.

The 222s are an example of how much better XC Voyagers could have been.

The 80x series seem to be fast becoming the “off the shelf” standard option, and I have to say I rather like them, though the hard seating comes in for some flak (until I developed Sciatica I thought the same, but now find that the hard seating helps me!)

The 805 and 807 “Evero” variants for Avanti have softer, less upright seating, more tables, a buffet and better window alignment. They would be an ideal replacement in my opinion.

 

[Kite159]

A 9 coach Avanti spec interior bimode will do wonders for XC. Only so it can use the wires from Manchester to Coventry plus on the ECML, to reduce diesel under wires.

For the time being customers are stuck with 4/5 coach voyagers

 

[A S Leib]

How many CrossCountry stations (excluding Stansted, Nottingham and Cardiff routes) don't have any suitable platforms for a 9-carriage 800/2/5/10? I'm guessing it's not a massive amount, if any.

 

[Zerothebrake!]

Can only accommodate 8 cars from Plymouth, 9 from Exeter & 10 from Chesterfield stations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can only accommodate 8 cars from Plymouth, 9 from Exeter & 10 from Chesterfield stations.

Plymouth can take 10 car 80x. GWR do that all the time.

 

[12LDA28C]

Well, probably because the DfT dictate what trains can run and where. Nova 3s I thought were destined for Chiltern to replace Mk3s. Cannot see the 222s being released in next 8 months, maybe longer. But even then, they can't work in multiple with a 220/221. Okay, maybe there is potential for double sets, but that means more crew, plus the set maybe too long for certain stations.

Nothing has been agreed relating to Mk5s heading to Chiltern, despite conjecture in the press.

 

[Zerothebrake!]

Plymouth can take 10 car 80x. GWR do that all the time.

Because they have SDO and XC 220/221s don't.

 

[LCC106]

Can only accommodate 8 cars from Plymouth, 9 from Exeter & 10 from Chesterfield stations.

Chesterfield is 10 on platform 3 only. 8 on P1 and P2.

 

[Mogz]

How many CrossCountry stations (excluding Stansted, Nottingham and Cardiff routes) don't have any suitable platforms for a 9-carriage 800/2/5/10? I'm guessing it's not a massive amount, if any.

In any event, that’s what selective door control is for.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because they have SDO and XC 220/221s don't.

They are fully platformed. It might be that some platforms at Plymouth are short, but they definitely all aren't.

 

[VItraveller]

Xcs problem is that it’s a long distance operator which often is the only practical choice for regional journeys. On very busy corridors, but I think other tocs could do more, why GWR doesn’t run more services to Banbury I don’t know but it would help to relieve pressure on the Banbury Oxford Reading corridor.

 

[Zerothebrake!]

They are fully platformed. It might be that some platforms at Plymouth are short, but they definitely all aren't.

It was in reference to places like Totnes where only 8 cars can be accommodated.

 

[Xavi]

9 from Exeter

All Exeter through platforms are long enough for 10-car IEPs.

 

[coppercapped]

Xcs problem is that it’s a long distance operator which often is the only practical choice for regional journeys. On very busy corridors, but I think other tocs could do more, why GWR doesn’t run more services to Banbury I don’t know

This has been said before, but it obviously needs repeating...

The TOCs have no freedom of choice at the moment. Their contracts are laid out such that cost minimisation is incentivised. They do not get performance bonuses if their expenditure goes above the level defined by the DfT and they get no benefit from increases in income.

but it would help to relieve pressure on the Banbury Oxford Reading corridor.

 

[Lost property]

In my opinion, telling passengers waiting at New Street and intending to travel to International and Coventry not to board the train (by stating that it didn't stop there) is not a bad idea; the next service for them is one 3 minutes later, an 8 car 350 to Euston which, although probably busy, would be possible to board without crowding off long distance passengers.
Of course, one may wonder why XC offers cheap tickets New St to International on this train if they're concerned about overcrowding.

Oh really ? in that case, why not just amend timetables to read " may or may not stop at "X" "Y" "Z" stations depending on our whim ".....you see, the problem is, normals tend to board trains under the impression the service will stop at the station they wish to alight at. Most, if not all, aren't remotely concerned if the train is 765 or 982 class, but, are capable of noting whether it's three / four coaches rather than say nine / ten or more.

That said, you may have done me a favour as I have to travel to the NEC next March, and, if the timetable remains the same, had a choice of three trains / TOC's...Avanti is out, more expensive and unreliable, XC is now out, as I wish to get off at B'ham International, which only leaves West Mids, or whatever it's called today.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Oh really ? in that case, why not just amend timetables to read " may or may not stop at "X" "Y" "Z" stations depending on our whim ".....you see, the problem is, normals tend to board trains under the impression the service will stop at the station they wish to alight at. Most, if not all, aren't remotely concerned if the train is 765 or 982 class, but, are capable of noting whether it's three / four coaches rather than say nine / ten or more.

That said, you may have done me a favour as I have to travel to the NEC next March, and, if the timetable remains the same, had a choice of three trains / TOC's...Avanti is out, more expensive and unreliable, XC is now out, as I wish to get off at B'ham International, which only leaves West Mids, or whatever it's called today.

I didn't say that...
What I did say was that, when a train carrying long distance passengers becomes overcrowded passengers for short distance journeys where many alternatives are available (in the case in point, 3 minutes later) should be deterred from using that service.
What you seem to be saying is that it is o.k. for numbers of Birmingham International passengers to board at New Street with the result that passengers for Bristol or Plymouth are left behind. To be clear, those latter passengers won't have an alternative three minutes later; while they await their next hourly XC service, around 10 trains to International & Coventry will have come and gone.
The avoidance of conveying short distance passengers on long distance services has long been achieved by 'pick-up only' and 'set down only' conditions, which only differs from your point - which you imply is unacceptable - in that it is certain rather than conditional.