Grand Central application for expansion of existing services on the ECML

[dgl]

Adding to what has been said about Hitachi, from what I gather Hitachi could have offered more Azuma's or similar for £1 each and they still wouldn't have got the contract. LNER are hardly best friends with Hitachi at the moment.

 

[43096]

Adding to what has been said about Hitachi, from what I gather Hitachi could have offered more Azuma's or similar for £1 each and they still wouldn't have got the contract. LNER are hardly best friends with Hitachi at the moment.

It's above LNER that really dislike Hitachi. LNER's parent company has an almost pathological hatred for them. I'm glad that someone at that level has now woken up to what an abysmal company they are.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With regard to ride, the 80x are as smooth as anything on the WCML (very similar to a 350), so if they are rough elsewhere then the track is sub par or they're substantially worse at 125 than 110. 350s curiously seem to be smoother at 110 than 100.

 

[YorkRailFan]

It's above LNER that really dislike Hitachi. LNER's parent company has an almost pathological hatred for them. I'm glad that someone at that level has now woken up to what an abysmal company they are.

Hitachi has built some great trains in other countries, as mentioned many times on this forum, DfT Spec ruined the 80X, as they could've been far better.

 

[Doomotron]

Hitachi has built some great trains in other countries, as mentioned many times on this forum, DfT Spec ruined the 80X, as they could've been far better.

The DFT spec wasn't responsible for the cracks though.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The DFT spec wasn't responsible for the cracks though.

True, but the cracking issue wasn't unique to one manufacturer either. CAF units had similar problems so presumably the source of the fault was further up the supply chain?

 

[skyhigh]

The DFT spec wasn't responsible for the cracks though.

Wasn't fully responsible, but the very challenging weight requirements probably had some impact on the metals chosen.

 

[Snow1964]

Grand Central have a news item on their website, that now formally applied to extend their track access rights beyond 2027. Also hinting if extended long enough, might Oder bi mode trains

• Grand Central has submitted its application to the rail regulator to extend its track access rights beyond 2027, with the ambition of securing its long-term future operating across Yorkshire and the North East
• The application has been backed by local organisations including Hays Travel, F.C. Halifax Town, and the West and North Yorkshire Chamber of Commerce, which acknowledge the crucial role Grand Central plays in boosting regional connectivity and local growth
• If approved, the application could unlock the conditions for Grand Central to invest in new, state-of-the-art trains which could boost capacity on key routes by 20%

Grand Central has submitted its application to the rail regulator, the Office for Rail and Road (ORR), to extend its track access rights in Yorkshire and the North East beyond 2027. If approved, this will secure Grand Central’s long-term future in the region.

Grand Central links 15 destinations to London King’s Cross, and is the only operator to connect underserved areas like Sunderland, Halifax, Hartlepool, and Pontefract directly to London. Its services are provided using available rail network capacity, run at no cost to the taxpayer, and can offer passengers savings of up to 80% on fares compared to other long-distance operators.

If approved, the application could unlock the conditions for Grand Central to invest in new, state-of-the-art Bi-Mode trains. These trains would replace the current 24-year-old stock and could increase capacity on the line by up to 20%, offering more services to customers and making journeys more reliable and comfortable. The trains would also cut carbon emissions and could serve the UK long into the future as they operate on both electric and non-electric tracks.

The move builds on Grand Central's previous application to the regulator earlier this year to deliver additional services and new stops across Yorkshire and the North East. This would include new services to Seaham, which would be the town’s first and only direct connection to London, and additional services from York to London.

Grand Central Submits Track Access Rights Application | Grand Central Rail

www.grandcentralrail.com

 

[Danfilm007]

Grand Central have a news item on their website, that now formally applied to extend their track access rights beyond 2027. Also hinting if extended long enough, might Oder bi mode trains

Grand Central Submits Track Access Rights Application | Grand Central Rail

www.grandcentralrail.com

Is that 20% per increased seats on a Hitachi unit, or would they be looking to order 9 car trains?

 

[Pete_uk]

I wonder if they have one eye on what CAF is producing for LNER?

 

[800001]

I wonder if they have one eye on what CAF is producing for LNER?

Maybe tag an order on with Grand Union, who are apparently in talks with Hitachi for units?

New train service to launch from south Wales to London

Grand Union Trains secured approval to run trains from Carmarthen to London in competition to First Great Western back in 2022

www.walesonline.co.uk

Managing director of Grand Union Trains, Ian Yeowart, said: "We've been unable to secure any suitable off-lease rolling stock to begin services earlier. As a result, we are close to an agreement with Hitachi on a suitable new build and hope to confirm that before the New Year. That will however mean a delay while trains are built and the target start is in December 2027.

 

[Pete_uk]

Indeed, that would be a prudent move in many ways

 

[Danfilm007]

Indeed, that would be a prudent move in many ways

Given 80x are already "type approved" on the ECML it would allow a speedier introduction into service?

 

[800001]

Given 80x are already "type approved" on the ECML it would allow a speedier introduction into service?

Depends how quick Hitachi can build them, baring mind EMR units are several years behind schedule.

 

[Danfilm007]

Depends how quick Hitachi can build them, baring mind EMR units are several years behind schedule.

Are those still in build though?

 

[800001]

Are those still in build though?

Yes! Only 3 have left the factory for testing, none handed over to EMR.
Highest seen built at factory 810009.

 

[Snow1964]

Depends how quick Hitachi can build them, baring mind EMR units are several years behind schedule.

The EMR units were a adaption of a design where they tried to fit a quart into a pint pot, having to move things around and try and squash them in. And it had some new style of engines which didn't have testing and certification.

Some of the follow on batches of 802 or 803 were more like 2-3 years. So returning to a design that works and is certified (but with new seats) ought to be safe and easy and relatively quick.

One thing I wouldn't rule out is them being fitted with secondhand diesel generators. Basically they cut a deal with Hitachi where Hitachi uses engines removed from existing units, where a battery pack has replaced diesel generators on other operators units. The net gains across multiple operators should be higher than cost of swapping power units around, so let's hope a way can be found.

 

[greyman42]

Depends how quick Hitachi can build them, baring mind EMR units are several years behind schedule.

And at what price compared to other manufacturers.

 

[DanNCL]

The dire need is for an affordable regional bi/tri-mode train to replace the Sprinter generation.
But that is not what the current UK factories are set up to produce, nor is there yet an ITT to generate bids.

That’s not the case at all. There’s two different specifications out for such units and both Siemens and Alstom are already adapting their product lines to meet it.

 

[trainswitheddy]

Judging by the FirstGroup announcement today, is it likely Grand Central will tag on an additional order for bi-modes?

 

[Snow1964]

Judging by the FirstGroup announcement today, is it likely Grand Central will tag on an additional order for bi-modes?

Looking more like the 14 (x5 car = 70 vehicles) will be BEMUs, (possibly bimodes for Carmarthen ) with optional 13 units (if Paignton, Rochdale etc are granted) could be bimodes or BEMUs.

Personally I wouldn't rule out the Hull trains bimodes moving to Devon or West Wales route, and Hull getting BEMUs, simply to optimise battery units where off wires are within range.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Judging by the FirstGroup announcement today, is it likely Grand Central will tag on an additional order for bi-modes?

Depends if GC wants to go with Hitachi 80X or with CAF on a 397 based bi-mode.

 

[Bradford1]

Has there been any indication so far that Grand Central will be successful in extending track access rights beyond 2027

 

[trainswitheddy]

Personally I wouldn't rule out the Hull trains bimodes moving to Devon or West Wales route, and Hull getting BEMUs, simply to optimise battery units where off wires are within range.

I'd be really surprised given Hull Trains diverts into St Pancras etc, plus afaik batteries only providing hotel power? I foresee Grand Central going for 802s if not then a 5 car variant of the 897?

 

[HamBuoy]

I'd be really surprised given Hull Trains diverts into St Pancras etc, plus afaik batteries only providing hotel power? I foresee Grand Central going for 802s if not then a 5 car variant of the 897?

The TPE trial train was covering 45 miles on the battery. Up to 90 miles anticipated in the future.

The train also operated under battery power for a range of 43 miles, which Hitachi says is ‘more than adequate’ to cover non-electrified sections under bridges and tunnels, and final stretches of routes.

Hitachi is now developing a full battery-electric inter-city train which would have a range of between 60 and 90 miles, enabling it to cover long sections of non-electrified routes, and potentially avoiding the need for electrification in areas where engineering or commercial considerations make it too expensive.

Establishing a secure connection ...

 

[3RDGEN]

The TPE trial train was covering 45 miles on the battery. Up to 90 miles anticipated in the future.

Establishing a secure connection ...

So still not adequate for HT's planned diversions via Lincoln/Spalding when Doncaster - Peterborough is shut. You do Peterborough to Doncaster on batteries and then only have the short run to Temple Hirst to recharge before running to Hull and back on battery again.

I suspect GC will go CAF on the back of the LNER order as it will be the cheaper upfront option.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Could they add a longer stop at Doncaster to charge the battery up or would that not be enough?

 

[Nottingham59]

So still not adequate for HT's planned diversions via Lincoln/Spalding when Doncaster - Peterborough is shut. You do Peterborough to Doncaster on batteries and then only have the short run to Temple Hirst to recharge before running to Hull and back on battery again.

I suspect GC will go CAF on the back of the LNER order as it will be the cheaper upfront option.

The 5-car 802 has three diesel engines. I'd expect a suitable combination would be two battery packs plus one diesel engine. Which would give 90 miles range off the wires on battery alone, and effectively unlimited range if the diesel were used to top up the batteries on long diversions.