Planning a trip to see Scotrail HSTs

[Scotrail84]

The rest of the set would have been reformed and sent to Shields for the TPM (Tyre Profile Machine) / wheel lathe.
Whole HST sets don't fit at Shields.

Theres still 2 x vehs sitting at Cadder with no locos on them as well as a 5 car rake with are minus their locos too.

 

[scotraildriver]

Theres still 2 x vehs sitting at Cadder with no locos on them as well as a 5 car rake with are minus their locos too.

The rest of the set is at Shields. The other rake is HA02 which has just returned from Wabtec and will be moved to Inverness depot for exam once HA08 is finished.(Which has also returned from Wabtec)

 

[Davester50]

Their age surely a factor?

Thought the standard of the refurbishment was a factor also?

 

[Aaron_TTL]

The rest of the set is at Shields. The other rake is HA02 which has just returned from Wabtec and will be moved to Inverness depot for exam once HA08 is finished.(Which has also returned from Wabtec)

So has Wabtec just been looking at the carriages and the locos for both those rakes were elsewhere?

 

[scotraildriver]

So has Wabtec just been looking at the carriages and the locos for both those rakes were elsewhere?

Wabtec were carrying out warranty repairs on the coaches. The power cars are swapped about constantly.

 

[Christmas]

I'm pretty certain that the document for procurement released by Transport Scotland for replacement of the HST had 2030 as a target. Not only that but it called for three different types of train. The main focus was of course for green trains above all else, a flawed policy in my opinion.

The West Highlands require proven technology, that means DMUs. However the replacement for the HST could potentially be bi-mode. The point is there is no mention by anyone other than rumours that the class 222 is even an option.

If the HSTs are genuinely expected to run for another six years then maybe money should be spent to rectify the buffet cars, fix the numerous door faults, upgrade headlights etc.

The 222s aren't coming to ScotRail, at least nothing official has been confirmed. Perhaps they would be suitable for the West Highlands...

 

[Scotrail84]

I'm pretty certain that the document for procurement released by Transport Scotland for replacement of the HST had 2030 as a target. Not only that but it called for three different types of train. The main focus was of course for green trains above all else, a flawed policy in my opinion.

The West Highlands require proven technology, that means DMUs. However the replacement for the HST could potentially be bi-mode. The point is there is no mention by anyone other than rumours that the class 222 is even an option.

If the HSTs are genuinely expected to run for another six years then maybe money should be spent to rectify the buffet cars, fix the numerous door faults, upgrade headlights etc.

The 222s aren't coming to ScotRail, at least nothing official has been confirmed. Perhaps they would be suitable for the West Highlands...

The rumour for 222s coming up to replace HSTs was probably started on here.

 

[chuff chuff]

The 222's were and apparently are still talked about though the problem is that's there more than scotrail sniffing about them now bumping up the value of them.

 

[kkong]

I'm pretty certain that the document for procurement released by Transport Scotland for replacement of the HST had 2030 as a target. Not only that but it called for three different types of train. The main focus was of course for green trains above all else, a flawed policy in my opinion.

What and where is this document?

The HST fleet replacement was announced by Transport Scotland on 3rd September 2024 with the contract notice said to be published "in the coming weeks", but I've not seen it published yet?

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

If the HSTs are genuinely expected to run for another six years then maybe money should be spent to rectify the buffet cars, fix the numerous door faults, upgrade headlights etc.

I recently saw a Green Party advert suggesting scrapping first class. Given that the 25% of HST sets dedicated to First Class is so rarely used and catering services are so rare, I’d be tempted to solve the buffet problem by stripping out the buffet and first class interior and just adding more standard seats.

Since catering is unreliable and there’s a fair chance your train might be a turbostar with a shabby first class section, or a 158 with no first at all, it’s understandable that few risk booking a first class ticket.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Nov 2024 ==

The 222's were and apparently are still talked about though the problem is that's there more than scotrail sniffing about them now bumping up the value of them.

Is there a cheaper option?

The only things I can think of that might be going cheap would be the ex TPE Mk5s, and the class 175s. Though there aren’t quite enough of either and would probably present maintenance and operational challenges of their own.

Either that or find something to displace the 158s and 170s on local services so they’re free for intercity work.

Coming from a place of total ignorance, would it be difficult for ScotRail to increase their fleet of HSTs from the withdrawn power cars and sliding door sets from GWR and XC? That way even if unreliable they might be able to generate a few more sets.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I recently saw a Green Party advert suggesting scrapping first class. Given that the 25% of HST sets dedicated to First Class is so rarely used and catering services are so rare, I’d be tempted to solve the buffet problem by stripping out the buffet and first class interior and just adding more standard seats.

Since catering is unreliable and there’s a fair chance your train might be a turbostar with a shabby first class section, or a 158 with no first at all, it’s understandable that few risk booking a first class ticket.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Nov 2024 ==


Is there a cheaper option?

The only things I can think of that might be going cheap would be the ex TPE Mk5s, and the class 175s. Though there aren’t quite enough of either and would probably present maintenance and operational challenges of their own.

Either that or find something to displace the 158s and 170s on local services so they’re free for intercity work.

Coming from a place of total ignorance, would it be difficult for ScotRail to increase their fleet of HSTs from the withdrawn power cars and sliding door sets from GWR and XC? That way even if unreliable they might be able to generate a few more sets.

The 175s are all spoken for.

 

[fgwrich]

The 175s are all spoken for.

And the business case has gone in by Chiltern for the Mk5s. Either way, neither 175 or Mk5 sets would provide enough for a replacement without losing capacity / costing more in training & Leasing costs.

And we're also very much in the realms of a thread drift yet again, when this thread is about ScotRail's HSTs. Replacement convo can be found in the Speculation section, just as every other Scottish HST replacement thread.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Nov 2024 ==

I recently saw a Green Party advert suggesting scrapping first class. Given that the 25% of HST sets dedicated to First Class is so rarely used and catering services are so rare, I’d be tempted to solve the buffet problem by stripping out the buffet and first class interior and just adding more standard seats.

Since catering is unreliable and there’s a fair chance your train might be a turbostar with a shabby first class section, or a 158 with no first at all, it’s understandable that few risk booking a first class ticket.

Coming from a place of total ignorance, would it be difficult for ScotRail to increase their fleet of HSTs from the withdrawn power cars and sliding door sets from GWR and XC? That way even if unreliable they might be able to generate a few more sets.

It's a real shame that the I7C First Class has been allowed to fall in the the decline that it has. I've sampled it a few times, both before COVID when the Buffet was open and purchased an I7C Whisky Glass, and afterwards. It's still a very comfortable, high quality First Class but seems to be lacking from both some form of being First Class (as in some minimal form of complimentary catering) and actual advertisement. However, when travelling up to Inverness it's still very much my preferred mode of travel and one I'll continue to enjoy - that First Class, the sunset through the Cairngorms, fantastic experience.

As for boosting the fleet with further Ex GW & XC Examples. Sadly, not going to happen. The XC examples would be incompatible with the Ex Great Western examples (upgraded WSP and different interior for starters), while the rest of the HST fleet is already very much spoken for. Most likely, for export.

 

[Scotrail84]

I recently saw a Green Party advert suggesting scrapping first class. Given that the 25% of HST sets dedicated to First Class is so rarely used and catering services are so rare, I’d be tempted to solve the buffet problem by stripping out the buffet and first class interior and just adding more standard seats.

Since catering is unreliable and there’s a fair chance your train might be a turbostar with a shabby first class section, or a 158 with no first at all, it’s understandable that few risk booking a first class ticket.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Nov 2024 ==


Is there a cheaper option?

The only things I can think of that might be going cheap would be the ex TPE Mk5s, and the class 175s. Though there aren’t quite enough of either and would probably present maintenance and operational challenges of their own.

Either that or find something to displace the 158s and 170s on local services so they’re free for intercity work.

Coming from a place of total ignorance, would it be difficult for ScotRail to increase their fleet of HSTs from the withdrawn power cars and sliding door sets from GWR and XC? That way even if unreliable they might be able to generate a few more sets.

One thing that is guaranteed, ScotRail will not be getting anything built by CAF to replace the HSTs. They know bad the CAF stock is having seen what has went on with the sleeper.

 

[3RDGEN]

What and where is this document?

The HST fleet replacement was announced by Transport Scotland on 3rd September 2024 with the contract notice said to be published "in the coming weeks", but I've not seen it published yet?

In May 2022 TS issued details of their rolling stock plans, page 123 of the report at "https://www.transport.gov.scot/publication/zero-emission-energy-for-transport-forecasts-national/" - Zero Emission Energy for Transport Report, details the timescales. In August 2022 ScotRail issued details of the planned new fleets as detailed at "https://www.fofnl.org.uk/newsletters/22Sep/22sep09.php" - ScotRail - New Trains Procurement or "https://bidstats.uk/tenders/2022/W31/780140910" - Framework for the provision of legal services in support of ScotRail’s New Trains Procurement Programme.

​

Those documents confirm the HST's to 2030 as per the lease agreement, since May 2022 there's been no further update until the recent talk of a tender for the new Intercity stock which was going to be Phase 3 of the 2022 plan. Interestingly the talk of HST replacement came out around the time ScotRail drivers voted on their 2024 pay deal.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

It's a real shame that the I7C First Class has been allowed to fall in the the decline that it has. I've sampled it a few times, both before COVID when the Buffet was open and purchased an I7C Whisky Glass, and afterwards. It's still a very comfortable, high quality First Class but seems to be lacking from both some form of being First Class (as in some minimal form of complimentary catering) and actual advertisement. However, when travelling up to Inverness it's still very much my preferred mode of travel and one I'll continue to enjoy - that First Class, the sunset through the Cairngorms, fantastic experience.

As for boosting the fleet with further Ex GW & XC Examples. Sadly, not going to happen. The XC examples would be incompatible with the Ex Great Western examples (upgraded WSP and different interior for starters), while the rest of the HST fleet is already very much spoken for. Most likely, for export.

Yeah it’s a shame. Though I think the original first class and buffet plan was maybe a bit over enthusiastic.

Realistically the majority of passengers will rarely if ever travel in first, and there are existing high quality first class services to/from Inverness and Aberdeen for that market. Even pre-covid there was an overprovision.

The buffets seemed like a great idea. But also perhaps not worth the technical issues they’ve caused. For the majority of services a reliable trolley service would meet the needs of most passengers.

 

[kkong]

In May 2022 TS issued details of their rolling stock plans, page 123 of the report at "https://www.transport.gov.scot/publication/zero-emission-energy-for-transport-forecasts-national/" - Zero Emission Energy for Transport Report, details the timescales. In August 2022 ScotRail issued details of the planned new fleets as detailed at "https://www.fofnl.org.uk/newsletters/22Sep/22sep09.php" - ScotRail - New Trains Procurement or "https://bidstats.uk/tenders/2022/W31/780140910" - Framework for the provision of legal services in support of ScotRail’s New Trains Procurement Programme.

​

Those documents confirm the HST's to 2030 as per the lease agreement, since May 2022 there's been no further update until the recent talk of a tender for the new Intercity stock which was going to be Phase 3 of the 2022 plan. Interestingly the talk of HST replacement came out around the time ScotRail drivers voted on their 2024 pay deal.

All of that has probably been superseded by what will be contained in the "Rail Services Decarbonisation Action Plan".

This document is said to have been undergoing a "refresh" since March 2023 and has still not been published.

 

[Clansman]

Even pre-covid there was an overprovision.

You could argue on the Inverness to Edinburgh/Glasgow services that there was an underprovision on a lot of services, particular in the summer. Frequently fully reserved especially heading north out of Edinburgh, and full and standing in standard class. The demand for first class on at least the Inverness services shouldn't be shrugged off. On Aberdeen services the loadings are quieter but still many occassions where you get at least 10 in, so in that regard they're a bit more volatile.

The buffets seemed like a great idea. But also perhaps not worth the technical issues they’ve caused. For the majority of services a reliable trolley service would meet the needs of most passengers.

Depends if the cost/benefits is worth it. I know from friends who used to work with VTEC that the buffet would typically fetch between £200-400 between Edinburgh and Aberdeen/Inverness. Scale that down to ScotRail service capacity, add the alcohol ban into the works - and the numbers don't look the greatest. The ironic thing was that the standard class offering of the HST buffets for ScotRail was superior (IMO) to LNER.

But having said that, if the technical issues were resolved and a functioniong buffet could be provided without much hitches, there's no reason why ScotRail or TS would want to easily roll over and accept LNER as the token quality service when it should be considered how many domestic Scottish passengers opt for them on the basis of the perceived quality they offer in this regard (that ScotRail could try to compete with, and were making a decent crack at it under the limited time circumstances until Covid hit).

 

[kkong]

Realistically the majority of passengers will rarely if ever travel in first, and there are existing high quality first class services to/from Inverness and Aberdeen for that market. Even pre-covid there was an overprovision.

I would travel in ScotRail 1st Class if there was a reasonable catering offer and you could be reasonably sure of an HST turning up when scheduled.

Especially with the £15 fixed price upgrade available any time on any day of the week.

As it stands, there is usually no catering at all (not even the water and biscuit tray) and the chances of an HST turning up are around 50/50.

The alcohol ban also affects my decision making too.

ScotRail are losing so much premium traffic (and revenue) to LNER for intra-Scottish journeys between Aberdeen/Dundee/Inverness - Edinburgh due to their uncompetitive offer.

It is a ridiculous situation.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

ScotRail are losing so much premium traffic (and revenue) to LNER for intra-Scottish journeys between Aberdeen/Dundee/Inverness - Edinburgh due to their uncompetitive offer.

It is a ridiculous situation.

Would it be possible to quantify the demand for premium accommodation?

I think the Green Party’s latest stats were that only 5% of first class seats on ScotRail services were occupied, and anecdotally I often see as many staff in the First Class section as I see passengers. See also Clansman’s post above about the takings from the LNER buffet.

Aberdeen and Inverness are already served by LNER and the sleeper. Aberdeen also has XC. The demand for first class can mostly be carried by them. There’s likely no need for every service train to be of that standard.

 

[kkong]

Would it be possible to quantify the demand for premium accommodation?

I think the Green Party’s latest stats were that only 5% of first class seats on ScotRail services were occupied, and anecdotally I often see as many staff in the First Class section as I see passengers. See also Clansman’s post above about the takings from the LNER buffet.

Aberdeen and Inverness are already served by LNER and the sleeper. Aberdeen also has XC. The demand for first class can mostly be carried by them. There’s likely no need for every service train to be of that standard.

The reason that 5% of ScotRail's First Class seats are occupied is because the price they charge for the on-board premium service they offer (mostly: none) is not worth it.

There is much more travel demand between Inverness-Edinburgh and Aberdeen-Edinburgh than the 1 and 3 trains respectively each way that LNER run each day.

From first-hand experience, there are MANY passengers travelling between Aberdeen (and stations in between) to Edinburgh in LNER First Class - I am one of them.

LNER's 1st Class Advance fares are much more competitive than ScotRail's and for that you will (usually) receive a service of hot food and two rounds of hot drinks and alcohol between Aberdeen and Edinburgh.

The continuing ScotRail alcohol ban is also driving custom to LNER in both Standard and First Class.

XC only has two services to Aberdeen each day - one early morning and one early evening, so it's not a serious player in the market.

 

[Transilien]

The continuing ScotRail alcohol ban is also driving custom to LNER in both Standard and First Class.

I don’t think ScotRail really cares about losing custom to LNER. It really can’t be that many passengers and as both operators are publicly owned I can’t imagine there’s a competitive atmosphere between them. I do agree that the Alcohol ban is rather pointless as it’s unenforceable and making catering on all ScotRail trains financially unviable.

 

[kkong]

I don’t think ScotRail really cares about losing custom to LNER. It really can’t be that many passengers and as both operators are publicly owned I can’t imagine there’s a competitive atmosphere between them. I do agree that the Alcohol ban is rather pointless as it’s unenforceable and making catering on all ScotRail trains financially unviable.

They may both be publicly owned, but LNER revenue goes to Westminster, whereas ScotRail revenue goes to Holyrood.

 

[Transilien]

They may both be publicly owned, but LNER revenue goes to Westminster, whereas ScotRail revenue goes to Holyrood.

Yes, but both aren’t private companies and that means they aren’t seeking out revenue from their operations.

 

[scotraildriver]

One thing that is guaranteed, ScotRail will not be getting anything built by CAF to replace the HSTs. They know bad the CAF stock is having seen what has went on with the sleeper.

If CAF make the most competitive bid along with suitable lead times and product there's nothing to stop them being awarded the contract.

 

[kkong]

Yes, but both aren’t private companies and that means they aren’t seeking out revenue from their operations.

Er... what?

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

I’d imagine both, but ScotRail especially, are more concerned with stemming losses than chasing profits, or that first class and catering is a significant revenue stream.

 

[Scotrail84]

If CAF make the most competitive bid along with suitable lead times and product there's nothing to stop them being awarded the contract.

CAF wont be building ScotRails new stock. That has been mentioned previously by a good source.

 

[fgwrich]

Yeah it’s a shame. Though I think the original first class and buffet plan was maybe a bit over enthusiastic.

Realistically the majority of passengers will rarely if ever travel in first, and there are existing high quality first class services to/from Inverness and Aberdeen for that market. Even pre-covid there was an overprovision.

The buffets seemed like a great idea. But also perhaps not worth the technical issues they’ve caused. For the majority of services a reliable trolley service would meet the needs of most passengers.

Perhaps on the buffet front, ScotRail could have saved themselves a lot of issues had they done a deal with Porterbrook for the FGW Mini Buffets & Mk3 TC vehicles. That way you'd have had a ready made and proven small buffet counter and a much smaller, but same quality First Class. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

[43096]

Perhaps on the buffet front, ScotRail could have saved themselves a lot of issues had they done a deal with Porterbrook for the FGW Mini Buffets & Mk3 TC vehicles. That way you'd have had a ready made and proven small buffet counter and a much smaller, but same quality First Class. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

It's a good point - but there weren't enough of the mini buffets (19) to cover all the ScotRail sets.

 

[kkong]

CAF wont be building ScotRails new stock. That has been mentioned previously by a good source.

Interesting approach to disqualify a potential supplier before the public contract notice has even been published!