Delay repay when unable to board train?

[Fawkes Cat]

I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this, but just for reassurance/correction if I've got the wrong end of the stick:

18/11/24: I was looking to travel on the 1811 TPE service from Manchester Oxford Road to Liverpool South Parkway

The train arrived very fully loaded and I was unable to get on*. So I waited for the 1841 EMR service, and have claimed 30-60 min delay repay from TPE.

TPE are declining to pay on the grounds that the delay to the 1811 was only 7 minutes (Realtime trains: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C42429/2024-11-18#allox_id=0). But my argument is that as I couldn't board and did take the next available journey, I was delayed until the arrival time of the 1841 (which per Realtime trains https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C60130/2024-11-18#allox_id=2 was 1923).

First appeal rejected, second which allows extra pictures for some reason will not load to TPE so I'll try to resubmit that again tomorrow.

Am I right to try and claim DR because I couldn't board? Or are TPE right to rely on what the train actually did?

And I'm not particularly interested in whether they (or I) are right morally - just on what the rules say and so whether I should persist with my appeal


*For completeness - it was full and standing, and the vestibules were full of standing passengers as well. I'm not talking about it not being possible to get a seat but about it not being physically possible to get in the carriage.

 

[AlterEgo]

Were many passengers left behind? If so, the guard should have logged this with Control, which would help your claim.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Were many passengers left behind? If so, the guard should have logged this with Control, which would help your claim.

Thanks. That's not something I counted but I'd guess around a dozen or more (i.e. several people not getting on at three or four of the six doorways). I'll bear that in mind for my 5,000 characters: I also have photos to show people not able to board and the train being full, and I'm planning to send those too.

 

[Vexed]

Am I right to try and claim DR because I couldn't board? Or are TPE right to rely on what the train actually did?

And I'm not particularly interested in whether they (or I) are right morally - just on what the rules say and so whether I should persist with my appeal

Yes you should receive delay repay if the service ran but was too busy to board. Some delay repay forms have this as a delay reason.

If there is no free text input in the appeal form then you will need to contact TPE and customer services will send the money or put a note on your appeal.

It is good that you have photos but really they shouldn't be needed. But it will help.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Yes you should receive delay repay if the service ran but was too busy to board. Some delay repay forms have this as a delay reason.

If there is no free text input in the appeal form then you will need to contact TPE and customer services will send the money or put a note on your appeal.

It is good that you have photos but really they shouldn't be needed. But it will help.

Thanks. I appreciate the help.

 

[Kite159]

Were many passengers left behind? If so, the guard should have logged this with Control, which would help your claim.

Sadly, some guards are better than others at logging when trains are full & standing, leaving passengers behind.

 

[Watershed]

What matters is the delay to your journey, not just the delay to any of the individual trains you're taking. For example, you could well have a Delay Repay claim following a 5 minute delay that causes a missed connection.

So if you are unable to board a train by reason of overcrowding, I think there can be little doubt that Delay Repay is due if sufficiently delayed as a result. It probably isn't the case that TPE have a policy of denying such claims, but rather that they aren't reading what you have said in your claims/appeals and are just looking at the train running records - which would suggest no qualifying delay.

Even if a Delay Repay claim were to be denied after several "appeals", you always have the ability to take the case to the Ombudsman and ultimately to Court. Alternatively you could bring a Consumer Rights Act claim for failure to provide the service with reasonable care and skill - though the circumstances leading to the overcrowding may be considered relevant here.

 

[sheff1]

A problem with this sort of claim is that one person’s “too full” is anothers “bit of a squeeze”.Obviously if staff (platform or train) tell people not to board then things should be pretty clear cut, but I have seen many instances where some people have declined to board*, whilst others further back in the queue/crush have forced their way on.

Only people who were there will know what the situation was with the 1811, but photo evidence should certainly be taken into account if provided.

* If they did not board due to frailty, disability etc etc then explaining that when making a DR claim would be a good idea.

 

[Lockwood]

I had an issue a while back, which I put on a thread somewhere, where I was caught in massive delays.

SWR initially said it was a 25% payment claim, due to the time the train I was aiming for left and all that.

On appeal, I stated that I was unable to join the train as it was so packed that gate line staff were requesting people not try to board. (And then a load more journey info). They then accepted I got back the following day and did a full payment.


Perhaps it is similar advice to other issues? Make contact, get an unhelpful reply, give a detailed account of what happened and have a human process it?

 

[SteveHFC]

I'm anticipating a similar situation with Thameslink from yesterday morning. Train I was on (Bedford to Three Bridges - I travel Leagrave to London Blackfriars) was terminated at West Hampstead Thameslink due to an operational incident (the train failed to stop at Harpenden). As we all got off on platform 3, and headed to platform 1, a train came in but left while many of us where either on the footbridges or still queuing to get up the footbridges. Had I been on that train, the delay would have been 15-29 minutes. Got on the next train, but by then the delay had passed the 30 minute mark.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Many thanks all for the advice thus far.

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