All we want for xmas is a modest modular station...

[GardenerFrank]

Hi there

Our little town of Newburgh in Fife is into its 12th year of campaigning to reopen its station. It is a modest ask. After a Transport Scotland official briefed the then Scottish Transport Minister Jenny Gilruth that the proposal would cost £6 million, we investigated costings for a two-carriage length, single platform station and came up with figures below £1 million. We wondered if TS costings included a health spa and a fully-featured WH Smiths. We have promoted the benefits of modular station. It can be put in, added to or, if no travellers, taken away. What is not to like? Well, it seems, Transport Scotland are not keen. Or at least one could be forgiven for thinking so. We have community backing, the support of Network rail, SesTran, Scotrail, Fife Council, local politicians...

As well as being a campaigner, I'm doing a journalism MA with a view to writing about railway. I'm keen to understand more about the anatomy of a train station campaign. Has your's progressed at glacial speed with setbacks, knockbacks and kickabouts like ours? I'd be keen to know - not just to write about it, but perhaps to one day create a crash course in train station campaigning...

 

[Carntyne]

How much time will it add to the current journey times on the route?

 

[SynthD]

we investigated costings for a two-carriage length, single platform station and came up with figures below £1 million

Can you share your costings, so that they may be assessed?

Is the site suitable for modular design, is it flat?

 

[Trainguy34]

There is a 12 - 15 minute turnaround at Perth, let's assume there cannot be a change at the Edinburgh end because of congestion. Take around 6 minute from the turnaround (3 minutes each way) and we have around 6-9 minutes depending on the hour.

However, there is a loop used most hours outside Ladybank, which would mean around another 3 minutes later to get to Perth as it would have to wait for the service from Perth. This would likely take it down to a 5 minute turnaround on average, which would likely be too short for a 95 minute Journey.

Therefore, without Skip-Stopping or line speed improvements it would be unrealistic for another stop to be implemented.

 

[CapabilityB]

Worth looking into the "pounds in the ground" ratio of costs of different schemes, and how to reduce design, planning, consents costs.

That includes how to meet standards around accessibility, fire safety, etc

 

[Bald Rick]

A simple one platform station at Soham cost £18.6m at 2020 prices, which is as near as makes no difference £25m now.

 

[Ashley Hill]

It’s not just building the station,it’s the additional costs. Bat/Newt surveys etc,line possessions for construction,staff costs,access. The list is endless for the different parties involved plus any legal fees involved.

 

[geordieblue]

A simple one platform station at Soham cost £18.6m at 2020 prices, which is as near as makes no difference £25m now.

In fairness a two platform station at Horden cost £10.5 million in 2020…

 

[Bald Rick]

In fairness a two platform station at Horden cost £10.5 million in 2020…

either way, a long,long way away from £1m.

 

[D365]

Worth looking into the "pounds in the ground" ratio of costs of different schemes, and how to reduce design, planning, consents costs.

That includes how to meet standards around accessibility, fire safety, etc

It’s not just building the station,it’s the additional costs. Bat/Newt surveys etc,line possessions for construction,staff costs,access. The list is endless for the different parties involved plus any legal fees involved.

These days, this is exactly why the cost of a new platform seems so inflated. Whether or not it’s ’gold plating’, I am not in a position to say.

 

[yoyothehobo]

Does the addition of a station mean that you will need the addition of a passing loop? Will it delay other services on the line otherwise? Will it need additional staff and rolling stock? Will the station require changes to the signalling?

How much land will need to be purchased? Planning permissions, legal processes. Is the station in a cutting? Up and embankment. Got to have all the accessibility requirements met, so lifts/ramps etc...

There is a lot to be considered.

 

[yorksrob]

Although West Yorkshire Metro managed to open a number of basic stations during the 1980's which didn't break the bank.

@GardenerFrank is quite right that something has gone wrong with costs since then.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Noting that the proposal is for a two-car long platform, what type and length of train would call at Newburgh? It will presumably be electrified in the foreseeable future once the wires ‘reach out’ to north of the Central Belt.

 

[Blackpool boy]

Although West Yorkshire Metro managed to open a number of basic stations during the 1980's which didn't break the bank.

@GardenerFrank is quite right that something has gone wrong with costs since then.

Design and safety standards can and do change over time.
Im guessing you need to now add in a decent sized car park all the drainage and groundworks that go with that as a basic start and also the cost of materials may have ever so slightly increased since the 80s alongside the cost of staff wages to perform the task would've increased too but i guess those kind of things were not thought about because 'They did it in the 80s' is your mantra as I've noticed.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Design and safety standards can and do change over time.
Im guessing you need to now add in a decent sized car park all the drainage and groundworks that go with that as a basic start and also the cost of materials may have ever so slightly increased since the 80s alongside the cost of staff wages to perform the task would've increased too but i guess those kind of things were not thought about because 'They did it in the 80s' is your mantra as I've noticed.

Certainly newer reopenings involve more substantial platform structures than the 1980s "flatpack" timber ones seen at places like Deighton and Cottingley... Deighton opened in 1982 and didn't come with a car park (it was also able to use an existing road bridge rather than needing an additional footbridge), so that's another cost saving. However even allowing for more substantial and durable structures and materials, the cost increases do not seem to be proportional.
I'd argue that our newt protection measures have been so successful that the great crested newt is no longer in need of such protection.

 

[Blackpool boy]

Certainly newer reopenings involve more substantial platform structures than the 1980s "flatpack" timber ones seen at places like Deighton and Cottingley... Deighton opened in 1982 and didn't come with a car park (it was also able to use an existing road bridge rather than needing an additional footbridge), so that's another cost saving. However even allowing for more substantial and durable structures and materials, the cost increases do not seem to be proportional.
I'd argue that our newt protection measures have been so successful that the great crested newt is no longer in need of such protection.

I agree about the newts

However since 2015 when the CDM regulations came into force there is a lot more for the construction industry to consider and keep their workforce safer in the workplace too - which is a good thing.

As for the pice of materials and so on and so forth i can find much data out there to confirm this but if anyone thinks steel ld be the same price now as the 80s would be bonkers

 

[yorksrob]

Design and safety standards can and do change over time.
Im guessing you need to now add in a decent sized car park all the drainage and groundworks that go with that as a basic start and also the cost of materials may have ever so slightly increased since the 80s alongside the cost of staff wages to perform the task would've increased too but i guess those kind of things were not thought about because 'They did it in the 80s' is your mantra as I've noticed.

Certainly newer reopenings involve more substantial platform structures than the 1980s "flatpack" timber ones seen at places like Deighton and Cottingley... Deighton opened in 1982 and didn't come with a car park (it was also able to use an existing road bridge rather than needing an additional footbridge), so that's another cost saving. However even allowing for more substantial and durable structures and materials, the cost increases do not seem to be proportional.
I'd argue that our newt protection measures have been so successful that the great crested newt is no longer in need of such protection.

I do think things such as the need to have a big car park, not allowing timber structures etc get in the way of getting things done.

It's the perfect being the enemy of good.

 

[Indigo Soup]

However, there is a loop used most hours outside Ladybank, which would mean around another 3 minutes later to get to Perth as it would have to wait for the service from Perth. This would likely take it down to a 5 minute turnaround on average, which would likely be too short for a 95 minute Journey.

Moving the loop and/or partly redoubling the line would help with the scheduling issue, but are also likely to drive up the costs of the project considerably.

Noting that the proposal is for a two-car long platform, what type and length of train would call at Newburgh? It will presumably be electrified in the foreseeable future once the wires ‘reach out’ to north of the Central Belt.

It's on the Ladybank route from Perth to Edinburgh, so 170s and 158s, sometimes running in multiple. That puts the requirement at 3 cars minimum, more likely 5 or 6 cars.

Realistically, if I was going to put a new station on this line, it would be at Bridge of Earn. It's a bigger population to start with, the Oudenarde redevelopment project is likely to increase that, and close proximity to the M90 makes it a feasible parkway station.

 

[SynthD]

Does the addition of a station mean that you will need the addition of a passing loop?

Wikipedia says yes.

Will it delay other services on the line otherwise?

The report on the campaigns website says it will add two minutes each way.

The report, as far as I read, was considering reopening the former station on the west side of town, or building a new one on the east side, near the primary school. The latter site has no road to it. Building one to it will be added to the cost of the station, was that done in the 80s?

 

[Dr Hoo]

I looked at Newburgh back in the early 1990s when I was with ScotRail. Even remember having fish and chips with one of the then-current campaigners. It is important to understand that Newburgh station would need to try and serve quite a wide, relatively thinly-populated area outside the relatively small town. Newburgh is on a hillside, on the south bank of the Tay Estuary, and many roads in the area are quite narrow/steep/lacking pavements - hence not easy for either walk-in or casual on-street parking.

Small 'flat-pack' stations might have been suitable for urban communities in Yorkshire with a walk-in demographic and two-car pacers in the 1980s but Newburgh and 'modern times' are rather different.

 

[Blackpool boy]

I do think things such as the need to have a big car park, not allowing timber structures etc get in the way of getting things done.

It's the perfect being the enemy of good.

Timber will rot after time and need to be replaced and may not be suitable for access requirements in the location of any building. Given that Newburgh seems to have a small population it will need a big car park if its going to try and encourage modal shift to the train for the surrounding hamlets or else why have a station at all?

 

[Indigo Soup]

Timber will rot after time and need to be replaced and may not be suitable for access requirements in the location of any building. Given that Newburgh seems to have a small population it will need a big car park if its going to try and encourage modal shift to the train for the surrounding hamlets or else why have a station at all?

You're also competing with driving to Perth or Ladybank, where there are more trains to choose from. That gives a catchment area of about a 10 minute drive from Newburgh - so Abernethy, Grange of Lindores, and not a lot else.

 

[SynthD]

Perth Parkway by the motorway, five miles from Newburgh, would serve more people, including a half built housing estate.

 

[3RDGEN]

Hi there

Our little town of Newburgh in Fife is into its 12th year of campaigning to reopen its station. It is a modest ask. After a Transport Scotland official briefed the then Scottish Transport Minister Jenny Gilruth that the proposal would cost £6 million, we investigated costings for a two-carriage length, single platform station and came up with figures below £1 million. We wondered if TS costings included a health spa and a fully-featured WH Smiths. We have promoted the benefits of modular station. It can be put in, added to or, if no travellers, taken away. What is not to like? Well, it seems, Transport Scotland are not keen. Or at least one could be forgiven for thinking so. We have community backing, the support of Network rail, SesTran, Scotrail, Fife Council, local politicians...

As well as being a campaigner, I'm doing a journalism MA with a view to writing about railway. I'm keen to understand more about the anatomy of a train station campaign. Has your's progressed at glacial speed with setbacks, knockbacks and kickabouts like ours? I'd be keen to know - not just to write about it, but perhaps to one day create a crash course in train station campaigning...

As mentioned above the Perth trains are longer than two coaches so you need a full-length station unless you go down the route of Beauly or Conon Bridge stations which are very short platforms (15 meters?) with only one door opened on the train under the control of the guard. Conon Bridge was quoted at £600,000 in 2013 so if that would meet your initial requirements you could try that option, if you expect large numbers of passengers, it is not an option as the delay to the train will affect the timetable as explained above.

Google Conon Bridge or Beauly Railway Station and you will find details of them, the FoFNL, "https://www.fofnl.org.uk/" may be a possible contact for further info on the groups behind those two station reopening's, Beauly was years being approved. Given Transport Scotland have no money I suspect you may have a long wait but good luck anyway.

 

[Indigo Soup]

Perth Parkway by the motorway, five miles from Newburgh, would serve more people, including a half built housing estate.

The people of Bridge of Earn would greatly resent being reduced to 'Perth Parkway'. There was provision for a 'rail halt' and park and ride facility in the original masterplan for the Oudenarde development back in 2002. But to say the development is stalled is being rather generous.

It'd be slim consolation to the people of Newburgh - but I just can't see the smaller town being able to generate the necessary traffic, regardless of the cost of a station. Tellingly, it (and Abernethy) station both closed in 1955, while Bridge of Earn hung on until 1964 for passenger traffic.

 

[yorksrob]

Timber will rot after time and need to be replaced and may not be suitable for access requirements in the location of any building. Given that Newburgh seems to have a small population it will need a big car park if its going to try and encourage modal shift to the train for the surrounding hamlets or else why have a station at all?

The ones in West Yorkshire have survived for forty odd years with patching and repairs.

What do you want. A wooden station now, that may need repairing in a couple of decades, or a perfectly constructed one some time never ?

This perfectly illustrates the problem with the modern railway.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

The ones in West Yorkshire have survived for forty odd years with patching and repairs.

What do you want. A wooden station now, that may need repairing in a couple of decades, or a perfectly constructed one some time never ?

This perfectly illustrates the problem with the modern railway.

It's not the railway, it's modern standards more generally, for good or bad.

Without seeing maintenance figures it's hard to actually give your conclusions any credence.

As a example with no financial bearing:
If it costs £10m for something cheap now but £1m a year to maintain, or £20m now but £0.5m a year to maintain, which do you choose? Personally if there's a need for a design life above 15 years you should go with the more pricey option.

Comparing now and the 80s or whenever just can't work, the world's a different place with different standards and there's no way the majority would accept going back. Nor can we to the 80s without the Free Money Machine called tbe North Sea

 

[yorksrob]

It's not the railway, it's modern standards more generally, for good or bad.

Without seeing maintenance figures it's hard to actually give your conclusions any credence.

I beg to differ. Those stations are here and serving their communities, whereas there are several communities deserving of a station which will likely not get one because everything has to be a giant concrete edifice with a brand new footbridge the size of an aircraft carrier and a car park the size of a football pitch.

It matters relatively little if a wooden structure costs more to maintain - that becomes an ongoing maintenance cost that gets subsumed into the rest, meanwhile the station operates.

As a example with no financial bearing:
If it costs £10m for something cheap now but £1m a year to maintain, or £20m now but £0.5m a year to maintain, which do you choose? Personally if there's a need for a design life above 15 years you should go with the more pricey option.

Comparing now and the 80s or whenever just can't work, the world's a different place with different standards and there's no way the majority would accept going back. Nor can we to the 80s without the Free Money Machine called tbe North Sea

This is the clarion call of the decline of the railway.

If the world is a different place now, it can be a different place in two years time when more affordable structures can be allowed again.

Your argument is back to front. If we can't go back to the "free money machine called the North sea" that's even more reason why we need to build stations more affordably.

 

[Blackpool boy]

The ones in West Yorkshire have survived for forty odd years with patching and repairs.

What do you want. A wooden station now, that may need repairing in a couple of decades, or a perfectly constructed one some time never ?

This perfectly illustrates the problem with the modern railway.

No, It perfectly illustrates your lack of knowledge about how the world now operates and no matter the hue of your rose tinted glasses, people need safe and accessible structures to catch their trains from.

Here is some design standards for accessibility on the railways for new stations https://assets.publishing.service.g...be5d/design-standards-accessible-stations.pdf

Not something that needs patching every so often as it deteriorates and becomes unsafe for all users

 

[yorksrob]

No, It perfectly illustrates your lack of knowledge about how the world now operates and no matter the hue of your rose tinted glasses, people need safe and accessible structures to catch their trains from.

Not something that needs patching every so often as it deteriorates and becomes unsafe for all users

And where is your evidence that the wooden stations are becoming unsafe for users, pray tell ?

Typical "just because this is the way things are done now, we must always do them this way" attitude.