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Should Scotrail have ordered 802s instead of HSTs?

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Indigo Soup

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I've been contemplating what a Scotrail order of Hitachi IETs in place of the HSTs might have looked like.

The original IEP tender documents stated a requirement for 29 trains for Transport Scotland - four of these were to have been electric, presumably for cross-border services, but this could have been converted to bimode - which aligns pretty well with the 26 HSTs delivered, or the 27 originally proposed. I can't find availability figures for the 80x fleet - no doubt deemed commercially sensitive by Hitachi - but 90% feels like a reasonable figure. That would allow the 24 diagrams planned for the (AFAIK never realised) full Inter7City timetable to be covered by 27 trainsets. 29 trainsets would probably allow a slight increase in service level - perhaps hourly Inverness trains, or coverage of other routes.

Physical specifications would probably be similar to GWR's Class 802s, in line with the other 'Phase 2' IEP orders - 700 kW generator sets, larger fuel tanks, dynamic braking in diesel mode. Configuration would use the LNER Coach B with a small buffet, and the GWR composite Coach D with only a small (18-seat) First Class compartment. This gives almost identical seating capacity to a 5-car HST in Scotrail configuration, in a shorter length of train. Route clearance would be needed for Glasgow to Larbert, and Perth to Dundee, for 26m vehicles, but I'm assuming this wouldn't be prohibitively difficult. Level boarding would be ruled out, unfortunately.

The kitchen in the DPTF would be unneccessary for Scotrail use, which invites the question of what to do with the space. The obvious answer, to me, is to fit it out with racks for the storage of large luggage, bikes, and other sporting equipment. I don't think this would require too much rework. This would allow the vertical bike space in the MC to be used as a luggage store, or to be fitted out as an additional toilet.

Table 1: Proposed Class 802/4 configuration:
CarriageTypeFirst ClassStandard seatsOther notes
ADTPS56PRM WC, 2 luggage rack
BMSB72Buffet, 2 luggage racks
CMS882 WC, 2 luggage racks
DMC1858WC, bike store, 2 luggage racks
EDPTF18New layout. PRM WC & van
Total36274

Alternatively, it would be possible to use the kitchen space to put 33 First Class seats into the DPTF vehicle, and run an additional MS in place of the MC. This would give an increase of 30 Standard seats at the expense of the enhanced capacity for bikes and large luggage. Either would require interior redesign of the DPTF vehicle. My preference, given the usage of the line and the large increase in capacity provided as a baseline, would be for the van space. But commercial and political pressures might mean the additional seating is more desirable.

If budget allowed, there might be some merit in rejigging the layout to put the buffet at the First Class end - this would be easier without the van space, in which case the buffet car just goes adjacent to it in the same configuration. Putting the buffet into the 'wrong' end of the MC would probably be a bigger job. Using the 9-car version of the DPTS would give two additional wheelchair spaces at the cost of four Standard seats; this might be a good trade.

With less power, but more driven axles, my guess is that performance would probably be comparable to the HSTs. Lighter weight than the HSTs might allow running at higher speeds on some sections of route - though probably not Sprinter differentials. Regearing for 100mph or 110mph would probably boost acceleration and hill climbing, which would be nice, but at that point the costs may be disproportionate. Better yet would be adopting the four-engine configuration of the Class 810s, but that would deviate considerably from the standard IET configuration.

Table 2: Comparison of proposed 802/4 and Scotrail HST
Proposed 802/45-car HST4-car HST
363232First Class passenger seats
274278206Standard passenger seats
222Wheelchair spaces
854Luggage racks
111Bike/large luggage store
211PRM toilet
332Conventional toilet
6277.579.3Toilets/passenger
YesNoNoVan space
125125125Maximum permitted speed
130154131Length (metres)
243324287Weight (tonnes)
282045004500Installed power (hp)
11.613.915.7hp/tonne

Based on the delivery schedules projected in the ITT, and the actual delays to the Intercity Express Programme, it's likely that the Scotrail units would be delivered between 2017 and 2018, comfortably beating the HSTs into service. My guess is they'd be registered as Class 802/4, meaning they'd fittingly replace the Class 170/4s. One would have come off at Carmont, possibly with better outcomes for those aboard thanks to the improved crashworthiness of an 802 compared to an HST, though I'd expect the set is still written off.

Other than this, Scotrail would have a reliable fleet of modern trains to operate a full Inter7City service, able to take advantage of electrification as far as Stirling (or Dunblane?) except on the Edinburgh/Aberdeen route, or further north if/when it ever happens.

The principal shortcomings of this idea, though, are actually getting the things built - the timeline coincides with everyone else trying to buy Class 80x derivatives, hence things like the TPE mixed fleet - and what would presumably be substantially higher leasing costs.

On paper, something like this might be suitable for the HST replacement, though by then 802s will be old news - the 80x line is still going, but hasn't seen any new orders since 2020 - and things like the lack of level boarding will become unacceptable.
 
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Chester1

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Members of the forum that work in the industry have said that Hitachi is extremely reluctant to agree to further 80X orders. Is there any information in the public domain that indicates Hitachi are bidding for the contract? Isn't Scotrail looking at second hand rolling stock too?
 

gingertom

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isn't 140mph capable on electric 125mpg on diesel stock a bit overkill on a 100mph railway?
 

Bevan Price

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Personally I think it would be better to ditch the MC and have an additional MS. Also only 18 seats in the DPTF seems a bit low. Would it be possible to increase that to 30 or 36 seats ?
 

jh64

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Members of the forum that work in the industry have said that Hitachi is extremely reluctant to agree to further 80X orders. Is there any information in the public domain that indicates Hitachi are bidding for the contract? Isn't Scotrail looking at second hand rolling stock too?
The question I have is if this extends to the Class 810. I remember reading that it was considered a new-generation successor to their previous trains; are they done with AT300s as a whole, or just the older version?
 

Transilien

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Perhaps if First hadn’t lost the ScotRail franchise they would have ordered them as a part of the GWR and TPE order considering they didn’t propose HSTs in their 2015 franchise bid.
 

Chester1

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The question I have is if this extends to the Class 810. I remember reading that it was considered a new-generation successor to their previous trains; are they done with AT300s as a whole, or just the older version?

The impression I have got from other members is that they don't want any small orders and that probably includes 27 sets. They don't want to build extra coaches for existing units either. They are sharing the HS2 order and want other big orders. I suspect the may have to budge if they can't keep Newton Aycliffe ticking over with export work until construction of HS2 units starts. Collectively there is a decent amount of 80X demand but it's spread between multiple operators and multiple classes.
 

Indigo Soup

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They could be set so that their top speed is 100mph?
Could be, but the HSTs aren't set for a lower top speed either. It's a bit of a waste, but this thread was prompted by discovering that IETs for Transport Scotland were originally in scope for the project, and in greater numbers than makes sense to take over the East Coast services from London to Aberdeen & Inverness.
Personally I think it would be better to ditch the MC and have an additional MS. Also only 18 seats in the DPTF seems a bit low. Would it be possible to increase that to 30 or 36 seats ?
15-18 seats in the DPTF is correct for the IET-standard 80x cars. I do note that it's probably possible to lose the kitchen in the DPTF and get something in that range.
Perhaps if First hadn’t lost the ScotRail franchise they would have ordered them as a part of the GWR and TPE order considering they didn’t propose HSTs in their 2015 franchise bid.
That's more or less what I'm considering here - IETs being ordered in place of the HSTs. They're almost certainly a dead duck for the HST replacement from 2030 onwards.
 

43096

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That's more or less what I'm considering here - IETs being ordered in place of the HSTs. They're almost certainly a dead duck for the HST replacement from 2030 onwards.
IETs were unaffordable for ScotRail, though, as well as being massively over specified for what is needed - if buying new then 100mph was all that was needed.

So if new trains were unaffordable, that doesn’t leave much choice: more 170s (where from?) or the HSTs.
 

fgwrich

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Perhaps if First hadn’t lost the ScotRail franchise they would have ordered them as a part of the GWR and TPE order considering they didn’t propose HSTs in their 2015 franchise bid.
Maybe, but First’s proposals was to continue using Turbostars with some layout changes and internal vestibule doors fitted. This is I believe one of the reasons why they lost the bid.
 

Chester1

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A bi or tri mode five coach variation of the 19X would be more appropriate. The most likely real intercity stock are cascaded 22X. I just can't see ScotRail being able to afford brand new 125mph units or such a spec being necessary.
 

gingertom

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A bi or tri mode five coach variation of the 19X would be more appropriate. The most likely real intercity stock are cascaded 22X. I just can't see ScotRail being able to afford brand new 125mph units or such a spec being necessary.
I'm sure Hitachi could come up with a variation on the 810, with the standard powered 80x traction motors rather than the uprated ones from the 810, and 940 BHP engines. Good for 110mph and provide decent hill climbing performance for Drumochter and Slochd. Maybe a 2 diesel / 2 battery pack tri-mode? And 26m coaches please.
 

Transilien

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Maybe, but First’s proposals was to continue using Turbostars with some layout changes and internal vestibule doors fitted. This is I believe one of the reasons why they lost the bid.
Honestly I think that would have been a better situation than the one now. The 170s aren't bad trains and are more reliable than the HSTs. The biggest problem is that they didn't have enough capacity for the routes that they ran on and that couldn't really be solved by a refurbishment.
 

Chester1

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I'm sure Hitachi could come up with a variation on the 810, with the standard powered 80x traction motors rather than the uprated ones from the 810, and 940 BHP engines. Good for 110mph and provide decent hill climbing performance for Drumochter and Slochd. Maybe a 2 diesel / 2 battery pack tri-mode? And 26m coaches please.

They could but that is a new design for a small order and that is unlikely when they are reluctant to sell off the shelf 80X. I am a fan of the 80X but I think the suggestions of new build Hitachi units for Scotrail are a reflection of enthusiasm rather than reality. It will be cascaded units or cheap new build.
 

stevieinselby

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isn't 140mph capable on electric 125mpg on diesel stock a bit overkill on a 100mph railway?
You could say the same about a lot of 100mph stock that could go weeks, months or even an entire lifetime without ever exceeding 75mph...
Yes, it probably is a bit over-specced, but I think that the lack of level boarding and Hitachi's reluctance to build any more of them are probably bigger obstacles.
 

Bletchleyite

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They could but that is a new design for a small order and that is unlikely when they are reluctant to sell off the shelf 80X. I am a fan of the 80X but I think the suggestions of new build Hitachi units for Scotrail are a reflection of enthusiasm rather than reality. It will be cascaded units or cheap new build.

One thing that may be an option is a follow-on of the Civity units LNER are ordering. Those are basically the same thing, indeed for a few reasons (such as full window alignment in Standard and the lack of window blinds to cause arguments) I think the 397 is a cut above the 80x so that might even be preferable. The ride is a bit rubbish and there are slightly too many tables, but aside from that the 397 is a very nice unit indeed.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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isn't 140mph capable on electric 125mpg on diesel stock a bit overkill on a 100mph railway?
I wonder if they could take over TPE's Newcastle shuttles, of which I think ScotRail is probably the more appropriate operator anyway, and perhaps link these with the Edinburgh Aberdeen or Inverness services? It would mean the new 80x were able to stretch their legs, provide more through connections from Newcastle, and allow TPE's Novas to work more Scarborough and Hull diagrams.
 

Bletchleyite

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I wonder if they could take over TPE's Newcastle shuttles, of which I think ScotRail is probably the more appropriate operator anyway, and perhaps link these with the Edinburgh Aberdeen or Inverness services? It would mean the new 80x were able to stretch their legs, provide more through connections from Newcastle, and allow TPE's Novas to work more Scarborough and Hull diagrams.

Aren't those partly with TPE because their units are maintained at a Scottish depot?
 

gingertom

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They could but that is a new design for a small order and that is unlikely when they are reluctant to sell off the shelf 80X. I am a fan of the 80X but I think the suggestions of new build Hitachi units for Scotrail are a reflection of enthusiasm rather than reality. It will be cascaded units or cheap new build.

You could say the same about a lot of 100mph stock that could go weeks, months or even an entire lifetime without ever exceeding 75mph...
Yes, it probably is a bit over-specced, but I think that the lack of level boarding and Hitachi's reluctance to build any more of them are probably bigger obstacles.
not for this thread but IMHO Stadler's Flirt or one of CAF's offerings would be a more suitable solution. Yes, an 80x or 81x product could be made to fit the bill but other offerings have a proven track record and deserve serious consideration.
 

MarkyT

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They could be set so that their top speed is 100mph?
The bigger issue is that the IET bodyshell was designed originally for 140mph crashworthiness. That probably makes it overly heavy for 100mph services, some of which go up substantial hills in Scotland. With the requirements for batteries and diesel engines adding to weight you'd want as light a body as possible to start with.
 

Indigo Soup

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I'd go along with that. The "Thrash pod" could be kitted with battery rafts or diesel gensets, or some mix of the 2 as required. Ticks many a box.
Yep, a suitably configured FLIRT would seem to fit the bill quite nicely. IIRC, the actual requirement was for 'a passenger environment consistent with modern inter-city passenger stock', with specific reference to what this entailed - and an explicit statement that this meant improvements over 170s.
 

Trainbike46

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To answer the thread title - no they shouldn't have. 80x don't fit the needs of the lines, which doesn't exceed 100mph anywhere.

If new-built had been decided on, they should have chosen something that was:
- Bimode (electrification already existed partway from the start, and was only likely to expand)
- Level-boarding
- 100 mph capable
- fast-accellerating
- fitted with a suitable interior

I would suggest a FLIRT (some mixture of 745 and 755 features) would have been ideal. However, I am sure other manufacturers could have come up with something that ticked the same boxes!

For the scotrail IC replacement, I still think that these requirements are a reasonable start, though I'd add either batteries from start, or have the option to replace diesel gensets with batteries in the future - something that Stadler (and maybe Hitachi) already offer.
Yep, a suitably configured FLIRT would seem to fit the bill quite nicely. IIRC, the actual requirement was for 'a passenger environment consistent with modern inter-city passenger stock', with specific reference to what this entailed - and an explicit statement that this meant improvements over 170s.
I think the 745s show this is definitely possible on a FLIRT. IF willing to look abroad, there are some very nice IC flirts in countries across Europe
 

MarkyT

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To answer the thread title - no they shouldn't have. 80x don't fit the needs of the lines, which doesn't exceed 100mph anywhere.

If new-built had been decided on, they should have chosen something that was:
- Bimode (electrification already existed partway from the start, and was only likely to expand)
- Level-boarding
- 100 mph capable
- fast-accellerating
- fitted with a suitable interior
Level boarding wasn't really in the public consciousness when the HSTs were acquired for Scotland. Because of this blindness, affecting railway management and suppliers too, vast new fleets of D&EMUs have been procured more recently across the UK without this feature, which is in retrospect ludicrous bearing in mind how widespread low-floor bodyshells already were on continental regional services by the time these new designs were being developed, some of them manufactured abroad by the same suppliers, Bombardier and CAF. It took upstart Stadler and Anglia to finally take the plunge into LB for mainline rolling stock, although T&W metro was level from the beginning with its German Stadtbahn-derived vehicles that naturally had a ~900mm floor with the default light rail bogies. Wales quickly followed suit, although only for its South Wales Metro services while, on the rest of their network, a complete brand new fleet of trains will not be able to support this feature for its entire life, so the next 3 or 4 decades, rather like the Aventras on Anglia suburban, or those on SWR, or the Elizabeth Line, or London Overground, etc.
I would suggest a FLIRT (some mixture of 745 and 755 features) would have been ideal. However, I am sure other manufacturers could have come up with something that ticked the same boxes!
Some continental low floor Coradias (Alstom) look very similar to FLIRTs, with articulated bogies, traction equipment in high floor cubicles above a power bogie immediately behind the cab, etc.
For the scotrail IC replacement, I still think that these requirements are a reasonable start, though I'd add either batteries from start, or have the option to replace diesel gensets with batteries in the future - something that Stadler (and maybe Hitachi) already offer.
I'd definitely go for a mixture from the start. That could allow trains to shut off engines at stations and through urban and other sensitive areas not (yet) electrified, saving noise and smoke emissions. At some point in the future, as wires spread and battery range becomes sufficient on some routes, the engine gen-set modules might be removed, perhaps just leaving one for emergency use.
I think the 745s show this is definitely possible on a FLIRT. IF willing to look abroad, there are some very nice IC flirts in countries across Europe
Agreed.
 

gingertom

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Yep, a suitably configured FLIRT would seem to fit the bill quite nicely. IIRC, the actual requirement was for 'a passenger environment consistent with modern inter-city passenger stock', with specific reference to what this entailed - and an explicit statement that this meant improvements over 170s.
Well, it fits the bill on the Inter-City Norwich-Liverpool St services, no reason a 6 car set with a power pod wouldn't work in Scotland.
 

vuzzeho

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What about a bi-mode AT200? The 385s share quite a bit with the 80xs (I've heard) so a bi-mode one could work. Also, fleet commonality and all that. If it's a 100mph line then I don't think you even need 125mph stock.
 
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