SWR Appeal made but court papers received?

[charlotte0110]

Hi,

I’ve just found this site while searching for what to do next so I hope somebody here can help!
I received a Penalty Fare Notice on a SWR journey for travelling with a railcard ticket and not having the railcard on me. My bad, I left it in my other bag and didn’t realise until on the journey, they said at the time to send proof of having it to the penalty services appeal people and it would be easily sorted.

Well the next day I got together my evidence and mailed it to the address given for appeals and thought nothing more of it. This was back in May. I’ve not heard anything more so just assumed it was one of those things that takes forever to actually be dealt with and promptly forgot. Until Friday just gone, when I received court papers saying that because of no appeal and no fine payment it’s going to be taken to the magistrates.

I emailed the prosecution department and they came back basically saying there is no record of any appeal so I pay a huge fine to settle outside court or else I have to continue with the court proceedings.

All I wanted was to appeal! If I’d known that an appeal wouldn’t be acknowledged I’d have paid the £80 ish pound fine and moved on, but now it’s about £250 which I can’t afford at all! I don’t wish to go to court as it’ll become expensive and if it doesn’t go in my favour I’ll end up paying a fine whilst also having it end up on my record!

I sent the appeal via the Royal Mail with first class stamps but I stupidly didn’t think I would need to have proof of sending it so I didn’t get it signed for or anything like that.

I don’t know what to do now? Any advice on how to sort this and either have my appeal acknowledged or get them to agree to let me pay the original fine amount would be amazing!

I can try and provide you all any extra information that may help if asked.

Thank you!

 

[AlterEgo]

Ok, so it does seem they didn't receive the appeal. before we go any further, can you provide a copy of:

- The Penalty Fare notice (if you still have a copy)
- All the paperwork you've been sent

I assume you still have the railcard which was valid when the journey was being made?

Please redact all your personal information (name, DOB, reference etc) and we can go from there. It's likely this can be sorted reasonably quickly but we had better look at all the paperwork first.

 

[30907]

Hi,

I’ve just found this site while searching for what to do next so I hope somebody here can help!
I received a Penalty Fare Notice on a SWR journey for travelling with a railcard ticket and not having the railcard on me. My bad, I left it in my other bag and didn’t realise until on the journey, they said at the time to send proof of having it to the penalty services appeal people and it would be easily sorted.

Well the next day I got together my evidence and mailed it to the address given for appeals and thought nothing more of it. This was back in May. I’ve not heard anything more so just assumed it was one of those things that takes forever to actually be dealt with and promptly forgot. Until Friday just gone, when I received court papers saying that because of no appeal and no fine payment it’s going to be taken to the magistrates.

I emailed the prosecution department and they came back basically saying there is no record of any appeal so I pay a huge fine to settle outside court or else I have to continue with the court proceedings.

All I wanted was to appeal! If I’d known that an appeal wouldn’t be acknowledged I’d have paid the £80 ish pound fine and moved on, but now it’s about £250 which I can’t afford at all! I don’t wish to go to court as it’ll become expensive and if it doesn’t go in my favour I’ll end up paying a fine whilst also having it end up on my record!

I sent the appeal via the Royal Mail with first class stamps but I stupidly didn’t think I would need to have proof of sending it so I didn’t get it signed for or anything like that.

I don’t know what to do now? Any advice on how to sort this and either have my appeal acknowledged or get them to agree to let me pay the original fine amount would be amazing!

I can try and provide you all any extra information that may help if asked.

Thank you!

It would be helpful you could upload the original PF notice, a copy of your appeal, and the letter you have received. Did you also appeal online?

Also, if you could clarify the journey you made.

 

[Snow1964]

Just to be clear, you say you received a penalty notice and next day sent in proof of railcard.

Did this happen quoting a penalty receipt number as reference, or a reference on a subsequent letter (did you even receive a subsequent letter ?)

There is a possibility they did receive it, but didn't allocate it (especially if you were so prompt, you might have sent in reply before their inspector logged it). So need to get clarity that all the appeals logged on x to x+2 date (day after you mailed it, 2 days after being stopped) have been allocated.

I would try and email a follow up, asking them how they mislaid the appeal, giving them the dates. At this stage they don't know if you have proof of posting or not, so they can't be clear if they had admin allocation failure. Remember if they go to court they need to show you didn't appeal, especially if you tell them you will show court the proof of posting it. (until gets as far as court, this is more a game of chicken, about if they are happy to proceed to court, or which to sort out with correspondence without getting to court). But of course if it got to court and there was no proof of posting, would have to accept consequences. You shouldn't really lie, but if you appealed and they say you didn't, someone isn't truthful.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

if you appealed and they say you didn't, someone isn't truthful

In fairness, the OP reports that the railway have said

they came back basically saying there is no record of any appeal

The OP saying that they appealed and the railway saying that they have no record of an appeal are not contradictory statements so there's no need to accuse anyone of not being truthful.

And that being the case, suggesting that the OP relies on saying that they have proof of posting when they haven't is probably not good advice. It's not good advice anyhow in that if the matter goes to court and the railway point out that the OP was saying something that wasn't true, then that will damage the OP's defence in that they will be less likely to be seen as a reliable witness.

 

[Snow1964]

The OP saying that they appealed and the railway saying that they have no record of an appeal are not contradictory statements

Point accepted, but I still think Op getting in touch saying did appeal and when would be useful.

Having no record, is not a good basis for justifying anything.

 

[John Palmer]

If the official who issued the penalty fare advised the OP to send proof of possessing a railcard to Penalty Services Ltd, which acts as SWR's appeals handler, then that was incorrect advice, given the terms of the relevant paragraphs in National Rail Conditions of Travel Part 8:

“8.6 However, if you were unable to present the Railcard because you had forgotten to carry it on that particular journey or mislaid it, the Train Company concerned will refund any fare or Penalty Fare paid in accordance with Condition 10.
“8.7 In order to claim such a refund, you will need to contact the customer service department of the Train Company that charged you the additional fare or Penalty Fare, providing the full details of your Railcard, together with the additional Tickets you have purchased or any Penalty Fares notices. A maximum of one such claim will be considered in any 12-month period.”

Given the terms of 8.7, there is a possibility that Penalty Services Ltd received the OP's evidence of holding a railcard but did not treat it as an appeal, either because what the OP submitted may not have been expressed to be an appeal, or because Penalty Services Ltd expected the matter to be dealt with by SWR in accordance with 8.7 and consequently treated the OP's evidence as something it was under no obligation to deal with. It would be helpful to have details of what the OP actually wrote to Penalty Services Ltd (suitably anonymised).

I suggest the OP should check the position with Penalty Services Ltd by accessing its appeals register via https://www.penaltyservices.co.uk/make-an-appeal/. Feeding in the penalty fare notice's reference (it will be prefixed SWREPFN) plus the OP's surname should reveal whether Penalty Services Ltd has any record of the OP's communication. If it does, then that reveals a breakdown in communications between SWR's prosecution department and Penalty Services Ltd that can be turned to the OP's advantage. If it does not, then the OP is regrettably left in the position of asserting a communication was sent to Penalty Services Ltd in accordance with the inappropriate advice given to that effect whilst being unable to provide extrinsic evidence of having done so. The OP should certainly not claim to have such proof if it does not exist.

Any retained copy of whatever was originally sent to Penalty Services Ltd will presumably bear a date in May, but production to SWR of such a copy may cut little ice as the company is liable to treat it as something of more recent origin that has been put together in an attempt to deflect prosecution.

If a check of Penalty Services Ltd's records fails to confirm receipt of any communication about the railcard, then to my way of thinking the strongest point in the OP's favour is the incorrect recommendation coming from SWR's own official to appeal the PFN rather than to contact SWR's customer services in accordance with NRCoT 8.7 with proof that the railcard was held.

I would also suggest that the OP provide SWR at an early stage with proof that the railcard in question was held when the penalty fare was issued, raising an expection on any passenger's part that its non-production in the circumstances envisaged by NRCoT 8.6 would be dealt with in accordance with NRCoT Part 8 rather than by prosecution.