Accidentally boarded with expired Railcard

[medboooo]

Hello, basically just want to find out if my partner should be expecting a massive fine.

Her Railcard expired in August and today she got a 26-30 rail card ticket to Birmingham moor street from Yardley wood.

She got caught at the gate and completely admitted her mistake as well as showing her details and the two other journeys she'd made since it expired.

One of the other journeys was the same trip and another one was like one stop from somewhere in Cardiff (don't want to ask her as it's a sore topic).

The tickets were only like £3-4 without a Railcard and the guy taking her details said he's not going to give her a penalty fare (and they believe it was a mistake) but they need to take her details for the report and we'll get a letter in six weeks.

What generally happens in that next step when we get that letter ?
We're just worried about having to fork out loads for a fairly simple mistake. She genuinely drives most of the time which is why there's only 3 trips and she was very upset because she hates breaking rules.

Thanks for your help

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

We see lots of cases like this on here. Birmingham Moor Street is managed by Chiltern Railways so I suspect you will be dealing with them rather than West Midlands Trains, either way it shouldn't impact the final outcome.

What happens next is that the train company will write to you saying that they have received a report and are considering prosecuting you but inviting you to tell them about any mitigating factors you want them to take into account before they decide how to proceed. I suggest a short, concise reply that mentions:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Most train companies will offer an out of court settlement to people who co-operate with their investigation, and who haven't come to their attention before. They will probably research your online ticket purchasing history to establish how many times you've travelled with an expired railcard and want to factor these fares into the settlement cost. Expect to have to pay the cost of the outstanding fares at the full Anytime rate with no credit given for the railcard discounted tickets you did purchase. In addition they normally charge an admin fee, typically £150 (although if WMT deal with the case it's likely to be £175).

Paying an out of court settlement might feel like paying a fine but technically it isn't. Only a court can impsose a fine as a punishment upon conviction. You won't have a conviction or criminal record if you pay an out of court settlement.

When it arrives post a copy of the train company's letter in this thread along with your draft reply and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

 

[medboooo]

Welcome to the forum!

We see lots of cases like this on here. Birmingham Moor Street is managed by Chiltern Railways so I suspect you will be dealing with them rather than West Midlands Trains, either way it shouldn't impact the final outcome.

What happens next is that the train company will write to you saying that they have received a report and are considering prosecuting you but inviting you to tell them about any mitigating factors you want them to take into account before they decide how to proceed. I suggest a short, concise reply that mentions:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Most train companies will offer an out of court settlement to people who co-operate with their investigation, and who haven't come to their attention before. They will probably research your online ticket purchasing history to establish how many times you've travelled with an expired railcard and want to factor these fares into the settlement cost. Expect to have to pay the cost of the outstanding fares at the full Anytime rate with no credit given for the railcard discounted tickets you did purchase. In addition they normally charge an admin fee, typically £150 (although if WMT deal with the case it's likely to be £175).

Paying an out of court settlement might feel like paying a fine but technically it isn't. Only a court can impsose a fine as a punishment upon conviction. You won't have a conviction or criminal record if you pay an out of court settlement.

When it arrives post a copy of the train company's letter in this thread along with your draft reply and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

Thank you so much for your time. I know it's our fault but having to pay £150 admin fee for like £10 worth of train tickets is very painful! I work in fund recovery investigations in a different capacity and I couldn't imagine charging the other party for my time.

We were very forthcoming and showed her journey history which they pictured so there shouldn't be any other journeys

The inspector (who was with Chiltern) did say something about it being around £80 but he didn't seem very sure.
Thanks

 

[Hadders]

Thank you so much for your time. I know it's our fault but having to pay £150 admin fee for like £10 worth of train tickets is very painful! I work in fund recovery investigations in a different capacity and I couldn't imagine charging the other party for my time.

We were very forthcoming and showed her journey history which they pictured so there shouldn't be any other journeys

The inspector (who was with Chiltern) did say something about it being around £80 but he didn't seem very sure.
Thanks

Sometimes they charge less, but I'd rather give the worst case scenario when I give advice.

It is frustrating when something like this happens - think of it like getting a parking or speeding ticket - it hurts both pride and pocket (especially speeding as there's normally an increased insurance cost for several years) but it's one of those things that happens sometimes. Best to chalk it up to experience and try not to overthink it.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hello, basically just want to find out if my partner should be expecting a massive fine.

Her Railcard expired in August and today she got a 26-30 rail card ticket to Birmingham moor street from Yardley wood.

She got caught at the gate and completely admitted her mistake as well as showing her details and the two other journeys she'd made since it expired.

One of the other journeys was the same trip and another one was like one stop from somewhere in Cardiff (don't want to ask her as it's a sore topic).

The tickets were only like £3-4 without a Railcard and the guy taking her details said he's not going to give her a penalty fare (and they believe it was a mistake) but they need to take her details for the report and we'll get a letter in six weeks.

What generally happens in that next step when we get that letter ?
We're just worried about having to fork out loads for a fairly simple mistake. She genuinely drives most of the time which is why there's only 3 trips and she was very upset because she hates breaking rules.

Thanks for your help

Just to add to other advice - the reason they typically don't seem to issue Penalty Fares for this sort of thing is that the usual approach (at least from observing cases on here) is that they take your details so that the back office can check if there have been other occasions when you may have bought a ticket with a Railcard discount but the Railcard having expired etc, and then ask you to pay for new tickets for those occasions too.

So they will almost certainly be checking your purchase records with whatever ticket retailer you have bought from (they can access records from any / all retailers).

Sounds like this will be the 3 occasions you mention, but your partner should carefully check her ticket buying records to know what to expect in terms of the sum. They may also ask for proof of the Railcard that was held (so dig that out), and they may charge the high cost Anytime Single fare for each journey, with no allowance given for what was already paid.

 

[medboooo]

Just to add to other advice - the reason they typically don't seem to issue Penalty Fares for this sort of thing is that the usual approach (at least from observing cases on here) is that they take your details so that the back office can check if there have been other occasions when you may have bought a ticket with a Railcard discount but the Railcard having expired etc, and then ask you to pay for new tickets for those occasions too.

So they will almost certainly be checking your purchase records with whatever ticket retailer you have bought from (they can access records from any / all retailers).

Sounds like this will be the 3 occasions you mention, but your partner should carefully check her ticket buying records to know what to expect in terms of the sum. They may also ask for proof of the Railcard that was held (so dig that out), and they may charge the high cost Anytime Single fare for each journey, with no allowance given for what was already paid.

Thanks for your reply

We straight up showed them and allowed them to take pictures of her journey history as we wanted to be cooperative and she drives 95% of the time so I think it would just be those small journeys. If I remember correctly I think she showed them the Railcard that was expired.

If they'd have given us a penalty fare would that have been the end of it? The inspector made it sound like he was doing us a favour by not giving us a penalty fare but we'd have much rather just paid then and there than have it hanging over us.

You just see so many stories in the news about train companies asking for crazy amounts of money our main concern is having to fork out hundreds for about £3 worth of discount.

Guess we'll wait for the letter and will post it here when we get it!

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks for your reply

We straight up showed them and allowed them to take pictures of her journey history as we wanted to be cooperative and she drives 95% of the time so I think it would just be those small journeys. If I remember correctly I think she showed them the Railcard that was expired.

If they'd have given us a penalty fare would that have been the end of it? The inspector made it sound like he was doing us a favour by not giving us a penalty fare but we'd have much rather just paid then and there than have it hanging over us.

You just see so many stories in the news about train companies asking for crazy amounts of money our main concern is having to fork out hundreds for about £3 worth of discount.

Guess we'll wait for the letter and will post it here when we get it!

Yes a penalty Fare would have 'closed the matter' in respect of that journey, but would not in theory have prevented them doing a further investigation and coming back to you about other trips later on - whether they would have done that is hard to say but we do see occasional cases of such things.

Inspectors do say things like that which you describe - it is suspected here that this a technique to help prevent escalation / diffuse situations / distress / anger on the part of the passenger, or it could be because the front line staff don't know how 'hard line' back office follow up will be (ie that they will usually send a letter that at first read look like they are just going to send you to court....)

But sounds like you have the evidence you need to co-operate with them so hard to imagine this will escalate to worst case scenario territory

A Yardley Wood - Moor Street Anytime Single is £3.50 so paying that again for 3 trips (if those were the journeys) will not be too expensive, it will be the c£150 admin charge they will probably levy that will seem more punitive. Of course there and back for one day is 2 x £3.50 obviously (ie a Return trip)

By comparison the Penalty fare would have been £50 if paid promptly (reduced from £100) plus the £3.50 to the travel on the day inspected.

You will get good advice on here as things progress, just head back and ask for help, or ask for your draft responses to whatever they send you to be checked by people here, as you need it.

It should not be too difficult to resolve this, albeit for payment in line with the above.

 

[medboooo]

Sorry to bump this thread but we have still not received anything from Chiltern, just slightly worried that they'll send the letter to an old address.

Is there any use in contacting their prosecution team? Just don't want this to get sent to court unknowingly.

Hope everyone had a good festive period

 

[Hadders]

Was an incorrect address given?

Chiltern typically take a couple of months to research your online ticket purchasing history, and given that Christmas holidays have got in the way, I wouldn’t be too concerned yet.

I’d give it a few more weeks before reaching out.

 

[medboooo]

Was an incorrect address given?

Chiltern typically take a couple of months to research your online ticket purchasing history, and given that Christmas holidays have got in the way, I wouldn’t be too concerned yet.

I’d give it a few more weeks before reaching out.

No, we gave the correct details and allowed them to take pictures of her journey history.

Thanks

 

[medboooo]

Mid-Novmeber my partner accidentally bought a ticket without a rail card and got stopped by revenue inspectors at Moor street.

The ticket price was a couple of pounds difference so very obviously not fraud.

She fully cooperated with the inspectors and showed them evidence of the two other journeys she made with the wrong Railcard.

She let them take pictures of her ID and the other journeys that she made.

Since then we have heard nothing ?

Do they have a limit of 6 months to bring a prosecution?
Is there any possibility she's been prosecuted and somehow we don't know?

Or should we just assume that's the end of the matter?

Thanks

 

[notmyrealname]

Hi, welcome to the forum.

Did Chiltern have the right address for your partner?

 

[medboooo]

Hi, welcome to the forum.

Did Chiltern have the right address for your partner?

Yes they definitely did, we gave all correct information and allowed them to take a picture of her ID

 

[WesternLancer]

Mid-Novmeber my partner accidentally bought a ticket without a rail card and got stopped by revenue inspectors at Moor street.

The ticket price was a couple of pounds difference so very obviously not fraud.

She fully cooperated with the inspectors and showed them evidence of the two other journeys she made with the wrong Railcard.

She let them take pictures of her ID and the other journeys that she made.

Since then we have heard nothing ?

Do they have a limit of 6 months to bring a prosecution?
Is there any possibility she's been prosecuted and somehow we don't know?

Or should we just assume that's the end of the matter?

Thanks

There are definitely other recent threads involving Chiltern where they have been very slow in contacting people / takin it to the wire 6 months wise - you can see these for yourself.

I don't think you can assume it's the end of the matter I'm afraid.

Not sure how you can find out if you have been prosecuted without knowing. I think it may be possible to ask the court at which Chiltern usually take their cases - bit I'm not sure which court that is....I suppose you could wait till the 6 month was well over - eg after 9 months - and then write to Chiltern to ask them if you may have missed any correspondence. But I'm not sure that is the ideal thing to do...

I have a hunch that @island may have answered a similar query recently about that - but it was ref SE Trains I think and the court they use.

 

[Tallguy]

I believe it’s 6 months from date of the alleged offence to lay info at the court, could be another month after that before your partner hears anything. I suggest waiting until the end of June before breathing easy…..

 

[Haywain]

Not sure how you can find out if you have been prosecuted without knowing.

I suppose a Subject Access Request might reveal what happened, but I'm guessing. It's not like nudging them can cause them to start a prosecution now.

 

[Hadders]

Moderator Note - I've merged all of the posts relating to this thread to keep everything realting to the case in one place.