Transport for Wales rolling stock

[12LDA28C]

Oh yes it would. It’s called resilience and is key to reliability. Too much effort, publicity and money is put into shaving minutes off journey times which should be put into ensuring that the advertised service actually runs (and by advertised service I mean one published in advance twice a year, not at 22.00 the previous evening)

There are many more factors that influence whether or not the 'advertised service actually runs' than just availability of sufficient stock.

 

[Shrop]

The special trains unit didn’t appear until sectorisation, at least late 1980s??

Until then, there were relief trains a plenty through clever use of resources, especially loco-hauled commuter sets. For example, there’d be ECSs from Oxford and other places to Canton or Swansea on a Friday night before a major game in Cardiff right up to the 90s.

This point is something that is forgotten by those who argue that any stock that spends time not in use or maintenance, is wasted resources. It doesn't need to be wasted, it just needs diligent redeployment. This isn't always possible of course, but some are just too quick to dismiss the possibility, because there are times when it certainly is possible, and could usefully be achieved.

 

[WAB]

Under a nationalised system, I would imagine that the subsector ops chief could ask HQ for more units in this sort of situation, and units could be redeployed from other subsectors (likely under duress). I do not think that BR in 2024 would have spare multiple units available for this scenario, though.

Back in the real world.

I don't think people mind too much about a small amount of contingency, when the alternative is overcrowding and cancellations. It's equally not a good use of resources to have them worked so hard to the maximum all of the time, that spare capacity simply doesn't exist. The balance isn't easy, no one is saying it is, but TfW are appearing to be a bit too far down the path of being tight on resources.

The tightness of resources is not planned. If fleet availability was at a level that could reasonably be expected of the designs, then there would be sufficient coverage. The fact of the matter is that the following factors are causing issues:

- Fleet unreliability (particularly 197s, but also increasingly mk IVs and 158s given previous postings here)
- Delays introducing Valley lines fleet (231s, 756s, 398s) meaning 197s are covering routes and 150s aren't available for mainline services
- Two 158s are out of use at the moment due to the collision.

Yes, and they do things affecting capacity which their passengers find hard to understand too. Just over a week ago Mrs Shrop and I returned from a day trip to Anglesey, which was a four coach set all across North Wales, with around 15-20 passengers in each coach. The station at Chester was absolutely packed, but for reasons best known to TfW, two coaches were removed. It took a long time to load everyone on to the reduced two coach set, including repeated calls for passengers who were standing in the aisles, to move along so that those in the vestibules could add to the congestion in the aisles, and eventually allow others to board.
There were many, very understandable comments complaining about the train having its capacity halved, exactly when it was needed most. Okay, so TfW no doubt had their reasons, but they do themselves no favours by what results in public perception. When passenger demand is often so high that the train takes a while just for them to board, can this not justify acquiring additional stock?

This'll be down to either fleet shortages (the unit was required to run on an otherwise uncovered diagram) or maintenance requirements (the unit needs to be put on another diagram so that it ends at Chester which is the only depot for most of the work conducted on 197s). Not a good experience for the passenger but it's not done on a whim.

 

[jamiearmley]

So how about re-nationalisation with good diligent management having learned lessons from privatisation, or is such management simply not possible?

You would have to get rid of a goodly proportion of the current management in order to create a management body that could be described as 'good' and 'diligent'.

 

[Harpo]

You would have to get rid of a goodly proportion of the current management in order to create a management body that could be described as 'good' and 'diligent'.

I suspect that removal of DfT’s micromanagement would have a far more positive impact.

 

[coppercapped]

The special trains unit didn’t appear until sectorisation, at least late 1980s??

Until then, there were relief trains a plenty through clever use of resources, especially loco-hauled commuter sets. For example, there’d be ECSs from Oxford and other places to Canton or Swansea on a Friday night before a major game in Cardiff right up to the 90s.

What are ‘loco-hauled commuter sets’ grandad? ‘Up to the 90s’ is now 35 years ago!

Privatisation is not the reason there is now little spare stock.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Nov 2024 ==

You would have to get rid of a goodly proportion of the current management in order to create a management body that could be described as 'good' and 'diligent'.

The results (outputs) of any organisation are a direct result of the incentives placed before the Directors and senior management. If you don’t like the results, then change the incentives.

 

[jamiearmley]

I suspect that removal of DfT’s micromanagement would have a far more positive impact.

I won't disagree there.

However, the likes of DOHL, RDG etc are so far removed from reality that they do more harm than good.

We need railwaymen, who know how to run a railway- and there's few enough of them these days.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Nov 2024 ==

The results (outputs) of any organisation are a direct result of the incentives placed before the Directors and senior management. If you don’t like the results, then change the incentives.

Sometimes true.

Often not.

The higher the incompetent, the yes men, and the 'promoted out of the way' rise, the less likely this will apply.

 

[Shrop]

You would have to get rid of a goodly proportion of the current management in order to create a management body that could be described as 'good' and 'diligent'.

That's a sad fact which made me think of how businesses are run. A one person business is operated by someone who is absolutely dedicated to their cause, which tends to follow through until they have a few members of staff. If it's well run then they will all be dedicated, but the bigger it gets, the more that less enthusiastic staff will creep in. Something the size of a TOC will probably have many staff who have little or no.interest in railways at all, they will be personnel officers, accountants, lawyers etc, and many will use their cars in preference to trains. Then we wonder why things go wrong

 

[Caaardiff]

Several 158's have been stopped due to issues with the sanders. Apparently it's a nationwide 158 issue, not just with TFW. There's 2 collision units, one on major exam in Bristol and some with wheel issues after leaf fall. It's all come at the worst time. TFW are in a position where 158's are difficult to cover by 197's as 197's are not yet cleared for the Cambrian and Shrewsbury - Birmingham. No-one could have foreseen the collision happening and subsequent issues with sanders stopping more units. They have been using 197's on Holyhead-Shrewsbury with a swap.
Had that not happened, the 158 availability would be a lot better. Hopefully it improves over the next few weeks as Birmingham is a very busy route for TFW and WMT, especially at Christmas.

756's are due to start in service tomorrow which should help move other fleets around, and 4-5 ETCS 197's are being brought into service to help with capacity.

 

[DannyMich2018]

Several 158's have been stopped due to issues with the sanders. Apparently it's a nationwide 158 issue, not just with TFW. There's 2 collision units, one on major exam in Bristol and some with wheel issues after leaf fall. It's all come at the worst time. TFW are in a position where 158's are difficult to cover by 197's as 197's are not yet cleared for the Cambrian and Shrewsbury - Birmingham. No-one could have foreseen the collision happening and subsequent issues with sanders stopping more units. They have been using 197's on Holyhead-Shrewsbury with a swap.
Had that not happened, the 158 availability would be a lot better. Hopefully it improves over the next few weeks as Birmingham is a very busy route for TFW and WMT, especially at Christmas.

756's are due to start in service tomorrow which should help move other fleets around, and 4-5 ETCS 197's are being brought into service to help with capacity.

The 67s/Mk 4s have also had dire availability and reliability recently with little as 2 or 3 sets out some days which doesn't help.

 

[5021]

Well, they lost 2 158’s in the smash at Talerddig - have the 2 undamaged vehicles been rejoined to make a new train?

What is the situation with the new 197’s? Are loads of them out of service with faults and CAF are not getting them fixed quickly?

Per Colin Lea of TfW at a Transport Liaison (rail user group) meeting I attended in Cardiff on Wednesday - the 158s involved are quarantined while RAIB investigations continue and one of them (I think we can guess which) may never run again. So reforming them isn't an option at present even if the rear vehicles really are undamaged and there are no other technical issues - which we don't know. A number of 197s - particularly ETCS fitted ones for the Cambrian but also some 3 car ones - have yet to enter service. There are also some reliability problems with the remaining 158s because of the length of time since their last overhaul - and they're not likely to have another while leased by TfW. There are certainly problems with the 197s and they're to be one of the main items for discussion at a further rail user group meeting with TfW in Chester (the 197s home city) in a couple of weeks.

 

[The exile]

There are many more factors that influence whether or not the 'advertised service actually runs' than just availability of sufficient stock.

Of course there are - a bomb scare at Queen Street for example is going to screw the Valleys services good and proper. Not having sufficient stock / staff to cope with the expected vicissitudes + a bit more is different.

 

[Lurcheroo]

When passenger demand is often so high that the train takes a while just for them to board, can this not justify acquiring additional stock?

It’s been acquired, it’s just taking a bit of time and having its own issues.

 

[chris_in_salop]

I remember catching a 9 carriage train at Rowley Regis, on the stopper to New St, around 1989. Yes, genuinely, 9 carriages, made up of some Modernisation Plan DMU still trundling along.

Of course, progress in the 35 years since means than 2 carriages is now a luxury across much of Wales.

 

[1D54]

So how come TfW are saying due to heavy maintenance on a large number of trains all services today and over the next few days are starting / terminating at Wolverhampton? If these units can get to / from there then why can't they get to/from International?

 

[Topological]

So how come TfW are saying due to heavy maintenance on a large number of trains all services today and over the next few days are starting / terminating at Wolverhampton? If these units can get to / from there then why can't they get to/from International?

Does Wolverhampton save 1 diagram?

It will be more that the unavailable units cannot get anywhere and diagrams need to be saved by terminating trains short.

Wolverhampton is definitely better than just terminating at Shrewsbury.

 

[1D54]

I'm on a booked service back from Caersws this afternoon and will miss my train at New St because of having to change so will catch the one before, I'm sure the TM will be understanding in the circumstances!!

For all that it is absolutely better to terminate at Wolverhampton than Shrewsbury.

 

[Harpo]

Does Wolverhampton save 1 diagram?
Wolverhampton is definitely better than just terminating at Shrewsbury.

Should need 2 less sets as they’re 4 car workings.

It’s all very inconsistent. Plan A on Tuesday was cape Shrewsbury to International, plan B on Wednesday was run to International but cancel six trains on the Cambrian line, and now plan C today is cape Wolves to International.

Lets hope there’s some consistency coming soon. Edit - Wolves terminations showing as ‘until at least Friday 22/11.’

 

[Belperpete]

Plan is to cape Wolvs to International for the next week, until the 22nd at least. Arrival Wolverhampton at xx09, change onto the xx16 Cross-country service gets you to New Street only a few minutes later than the TfW train would have got you there. In my case, still in time to catch the London train at xx47. Might be a bit packed on the XC service though.

 

[1D54]

And that of course if the XC service from Man Picc is on time.

Heading to Gobowen next Saturday so will be going through this again by the looks of it as 'at least' does not sound promising to me.

 

[Belperpete]

Does Wolverhampton save 1 diagram?

It will be more that the unavailable units cannot get anywhere and diagrams need to be saved by terminating trains short.

Wolverhampton is definitely better than just terminating at Shrewsbury.

As well as needing 2 less units to run the service, does it also mean that a Cambrian service arriving at Wolvs goes back as a Cambrian service, and likewise a service from Holyhead goes back to Holyhead? If so, this would make it easier to put other sets on the Holyhead services, and keep the ETCS-fitted 158s on the Cambrian, without the pain of set swaps at Shrewsbury.

With trains terminating at International, a service from Holyhead goes back as a Cambrian service, and vice versa, which is the reason there are set swaps at Shrewsbury if the units from Holyhead are not ETCS-fitted. A 150 on the train at International or New Station used to be a giveaway that a set swap was coming up.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Nov 2024 ==

And that of course if the XC service from Man Picc is on time.

Surely a reasonable chance that a service starting at Picc is still going to be on time at Wolvs?

 

[1D54]

This service was cancelled between Aberystwyth and Machynlleth due to the planned train being replaced with a slower train (MS).

Edit.

According to the TM the above service 08:08 Aberystwyth - Wolverhampton actually started at Shrewsbury this morning.

 

[craigybagel]

As well as needing 2 less units to run the service, does it also mean that a Cambrian service arriving at Wolvs goes back as a Cambrian service, and likewise a service from Holyhead goes back to Holyhead? If so, this would make it easier to put other sets on the Holyhead services, and keep the ETCS-fitted 158s on the Cambrian, without the pain of set swaps at Shrewsbury.

With trains terminating at International, a service from Holyhead goes back as a Cambrian service, and vice versa, which is the reason there are set swaps at Shrewsbury if the units from Holyhead are not ETCS-fitted. A 150 on the train at International or New Station used to be a giveaway that a set swap was coming up.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Nov 2024 ==

It does indeed mean there shouldn't need to be set swaps as Cambrian sets will stay captive. That said, with the restrictions on 150 working in the north it's unlikely one will turn up here, and 197s still aren't cleared in passenger service, but 153s are a possibility

 

[Tom125]

Should need 2 less sets as they’re 4 car workings.

It’s all very inconsistent. Plan A on Tuesday was cape Shrewsbury to International, plan B on Wednesday was run to International but cancel six trains on the Cambrian line, and now plan C today is cape Wolves to International.

Lets hope there’s some consistency coming soon. Edit - Wolves terminations showing as ‘until at least Friday 22/11.’

Plan C does indeed seem the most sensible to me, which guarantees fairness to all along the route! I live on the Cambrain coast and just 1 cancelled train means a 4 hour service gap, so I think it's right that they've chosen this plan for all the people in rural Wales who depend on public transport. Looking at my planned trip to London next week I still make my connection in New Street with the change in Wolverhampton.

 

[vicbury]

Surprised it's not Cardiff to Cheltenham being dropped, that's usually TfW's favourite service to forget about in South Wales. Good job that CrossCountry provides a reliable alternative. Oh wait...

 

[jayah]

Theres little point comparing BR with today. BR had universal go-anywhere resources. Trains that could serve commuters, InterCity, holidaymakers, trippers, etc and in the same diagram. Privatisation killed that a long while ago.

That is a little unfair.

The not privatised TfW has I think 7 different types of diesel rolling stock.

The privatised but largely in name only, WMR/LNWR have 3 types, in addition to the people mover.

As TfW have found in several places, it is difficult to cross cover when you have so many non-universal fleets.

 

[Belperpete]

Looking at my planned trip to London next week I still make my connection in New Street with the change in Wolverhampton.

Coming back is slightly more problematic. The xx40s from Euston no longer connect, so in most cases it is now necessary to catch the xx16s from Euston.

 

[Llanigraham]

Surprised it's not Cardiff to Cheltenham being dropped, that's usually TfW's favourite service to forget about in South Wales. Good job that CrossCountry provides a reliable alternative. Oh wait...

It would be pointless dropping that service as it doesn't use any units that could be used on the Cambrian.

 

[Tom125]

Coming back is slightly more problematic. The xx40s from Euston no longer connect, so in most cases it is now necessary to catch the xx16s from Euston.

The XX33 from Euston changing at Stafford and Wolves do, so does the 17:40 so it's a minor inconvience really and I use the 17:40. Whats more of the problem for me is the loss of the late train on the coast in winter but thats another thread.

 

[Harpo]

That is a little unfair.

The not privatised TfW has I think 7 different types of diesel rolling stock.

The privatised but largely in name only, WMR/LNWR have 3 types, in addition to the people mover.

As TfW have found in several places, it is difficult to cross cover when you have so many non-universal fleets.

But we have no ability to cross-cover between TOCs at short notice bar the odd BR-era 15x because of those hugely insular TOC fleets, which was my real point about being unable to compare to BR universality.

We are unlikely to ever again witness the likes of 12 car 156 formations running into South Wales within 24 hours of class 155’s getting grounded. Nowadays we quietly wait for a 37 dragging 2 or 3 cars of class 175 to GWR, etc..