Staff on the platform announcing mind the doors

[Adrian1980uk]

Why is it that they fill the station with pretty much irrelevant information all the time, from the arrival of the train to the departure.

Stand back from the platform edge, let passengers off the train first, mind the doors etc. irrelevant for most people

Yesterday I was standing on the platform at bank with a full train standing in the platform for a good 10 minutes and everyone wondering what was going on. Something that the announcer could provide some useful information, even if it's only apologising for the delay but we should be underway soon so passengers standing there know it's only a minor and don't need to look for alternatives but alas no, silence!! Suddenly about 10 minutes later they chirp up - this train is ready to depart, mind the doors as they were shutting.. I think everyone on the platform knew that. The irony of the train has been ready to depart for 10 minutes but I assume there was something happening further along was completely lost.

My frustration is that their union will be the first to get upset if they were replaced by automatic announcements but if they're not going to provide anything that an automatic announcement can't then to me they have limited purpose

 

[3rd rail land]

A few years ago there used to almost always be staff making manual announcements during peak times, at least on platforms I boarded and alighted at. Nowadays its much rarer I find.

I do tend agree though that we don't need to Be told to let people off first, move down inside the cars, stand behind teh yellow line etc... Its common sense and in my opinion doesn't speed up services and improve passenger flow.

As for not providing details of delay I suspect the information is not passed onto staff working on platforms. The driver will probably be informed as may the staff in the station control room but that info is not passed on to the employee on the platform. I reckon its up to the driver to keep passengers informed. In fact I am sure I have read they are supposed to make an announcement every 2 minutes during delays but I could well be wrong on that one.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

A few years ago there used to almost always be staff making manual announcements during peak times, at least on platforms I boarded and alighted at. Nowadays its much rarer I find.

I do tend agree though that we don't need to Be told to let people off first, move down inside the cars, stand behind teh yellow line etc... Its common sense and in my opinion doesn't speed up services and improve passenger flow.

As for not providing details of delay I suspect the information is not passed onto staff working on platforms. The driver will probably be informed as may the staff in the station control room but that info is not passed on to the employee on the platform. I reckon its up to the driver to keep passengers informed. In fact I am sure I have read they are supposed to make an announcement every 2 minutes during delays but I could well be wrong on that one.

I think the driver was announcing the delay but you couldn't hear that on the platform

 

[trebor79]

The auto announcer at Southwark on Wednesday evening had "mind the doors" playing on repeat constantly. At least the humans shut up when there isn't a train in the platform!

 

[announcements]

A few years ago there used to almost always be staff making manual announcements during peak times, at least on platforms I boarded and alighted at. Nowadays its much rarer I find.

I do tend agree though that we don't need to Be told to let people off first, move down inside the cars, stand behind teh yellow line etc... Its common sense and in my opinion doesn't speed up services and improve passenger flow.

Thank goodness for fewer platform announcers these days. They aren't out of a job, they are just fulfilling other duties around the station. I have always found the platform announcer task a bit of a nice to have. Telling people to do things doesn't usually work:
1) the majority of us who abide by the rules will do so anyway, without needing to be reminded on daily basis (particularly in peak, when there is a relatively inelastic demand of regulars travellers)
2) those who are going to pull a fast one (e.g. jumping onto the train after the on-train "please stand clear of the doors" or the door chimes have sounded) will do so anyway irrespective of whether or not the platform announcer is shouting down the microphone.

The consequence of information overload is one switches off from the "noise" after a while. And, of course, the CSAs on the platform just read the announcements in a perfunctory manner because they are probably so bored of repeating the same thing, they aren't even reading them with intelligence or accuracy.

Some of the language needs updating too. "Let the customers of the train first" implies that those on the platform aren't customers, only those alighting the train. Perhaps "fellow customers/passengers" would work better. I also take a disliking to "calling at all stations to X" on lines where there are no express runs! I wonder if they will alter this to "calling at all stations to X except Y, which is closed" if ever there is a station closure? As for "stand clear of the doors" and "mind the doors" (not sure why they have two say it in two different ways) - surely they should only be saying this when the doors are actually about the close, otherwise it is boy who cry wolf? I would leave this one to the T/Op as they are the one pressing the door close buttons.

 

[bramling]

Why is it that they fill the station with pretty much irrelevant information all the time, from the arrival of the train to the departure.

Stand back from the platform edge, let passengers off the train first, mind the doors etc. irrelevant for most people

Yesterday I was standing on the platform at bank with a full train standing in the platform for a good 10 minutes and everyone wondering what was going on. Something that the announcer could provide some useful information, even if it's only apologising for the delay but we should be underway soon so passengers standing there know it's only a minor and don't need to look for alternatives but alas no, silence!! Suddenly about 10 minutes later they chirp up - this train is ready to depart, mind the doors as they were shutting.. I think everyone on the platform knew that. The irony of the train has been ready to depart for 10 minutes but I assume there was something happening further along was completely lost.

My frustration is that their union will be the first to get upset if they were replaced by automatic announcements but if they're not going to provide anything that an automatic announcement can't then to me they have limited purpose

This is London Underground in the 2020s sadly. The mainline got there a decade sooner.

Firstly, the platform staff are measured on certain announcements, so they make sure they get those in, sometimes even to an empty platform. As regards information, for station staff to provide decent updates then they need to have their radio scanning the line’s radio channel, so that they can here what the controllers are broadcasting - providing the controllers are talking to the line channel then in theory staff should be able to interpret what’s going on and pass on relevant information.

The difficulty is that staff aren’t really trained to interpret information, so instead will rely on their colleague in the station control room to pass on information. Which brings us to the second problem, the person in the office may well not be particularly adept at interpreting what’s going on either, or - especially nowadays - may well be very busy and thus have other tasks which need to take priority.

None of this will be sorted whilst there is transient managements who just don’t really understand how things work in practice.

Mainline is no better, in fact at times worse. At my local station, during disruption the staff will all simply disappear.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

This is London Underground in the 2020s sadly. The mainline got there a decade sooner.

Firstly, the platform staff are measured on certain announcements, so they make sure they get those in, sometimes even to an empty platform. As regards information, for station staff to provide decent updates then they need to have their radio scanning the line’s radio channel, so that they can here what the controllers are broadcasting - providing the controllers are talking to the line channel then in theory staff should be able to interpret what’s going on and pass on relevant information.

The difficulty is that staff aren’t really trained to interpret information, so instead will rely on their colleague in the station control room to pass on information. Which brings us to the second problem, the person in the office may well not be particularly adept at interpreting what’s going on either, or - especially nowadays - may well be very busy and thus have other tasks which need to take priority.

None of this will be sorted whilst there is transient managements who just don’t really understand how things work in practice.

Mainline is no better, in fact at times worse. At my local station, during disruption the staff will all simply disappear.

While I get it, I just thought it was ironic that the one moment they might be able to give useful information the silence was defining, all the noise they give is of no use to pretty much anyone on the platform. Proven in bank station, the Waterloo and city line have no announcements but passengers manage to get on and off the train daily, I've not seen anyone get trapped in the door yet or fall on the tracks etc.

 

[bramling]

While I get it, I just thought it was ironic that the one moment they might be able to give useful information the silence was defining, all the noise they give is of no use to pretty much anyone on the platform. Proven in bank station, the Waterloo and city line have no announcements but passengers manage to get on and off the train daily, I've not seen anyone get trapped in the door yet or fall on the tracks etc.

If done well, platform staff can have a good impact at managing dwell times, which is important for being able to maintain the timetable number of trains per hour. Unfortunately things have slipped on LU over the years, both in terms of consistency of staff doing things well, and in terms of passengers being responsive to it.

 

[ThirteenArches]

I thought they were announcing some forgotten celebrity, one of Jim Morrison's old mates: Stan Clear of The Doors.

 

[Florence Rox]

As one of the CSAs who makes the announcements, we are told to announce mind the gap, stand clear of the doors etc. I try to use common sense and sometimes say nothing if the platform is virtually empty and use my iPad to check for delays. I think a lot of passengers don't listen to the announcements, and the other day, a passenger complained that I was standing there doing nothing during a disruption, when in fact I had been making announcements almost continually giving the passengers the best information and advice I could.

 

[Mawkie]

As one of the CSAs who makes the announcements, we are told to announce mind the gap, stand clear of the doors etc. I try to use common sense and sometimes say nothing if the platform is virtually empty and use my iPad to check for delays. I think a lot of passengers don't listen to the announcements, and the other day, a passenger complained that I was standing there doing nothing during a disruption, when in fact I had been making announcements almost continually giving the passengers the best information and advice I could.

Don't worry about it @Florence Rox , this forum is full of people who have little knowledge of the industry they're commenting on, but somehow feel they have the right to tell professional railway staff what they should, or shouldn't, be doing.

I agree with @bramling , done right, SATS can be invaluable to train operators, provide reduced dwell times, and result in enhanced customer safety. I appreciate it as a passenger when I see station staff having a visible presence on the platform, and when working it makes my job as train operator easier.

 

[TUC]

Don't worry about it @Florence Rox , this forum is full of people who have little knowledge of the industry they're commenting on, but somehow feel they have the right to tell professional railway staff what they should, or shouldn't, be doing.

Do you mean your customers shouldn't express an opinion, just like they would with any other service or product?

Picking up the David Blunkett issue on another thread, if staff weren't diverted into making redundant announcements, they might have some time released to provide the kind of assistance he talks about.

 

[announcements]

Do you mean your customers shouldn't express an opinion, just like they would with any other service or product?

Hear, hear. TfL is meant to be a customer-focussed entity, and so it is important we hear the views of the service users as well as the professional staff. All stakeholders should have a voice and I think some of the points raised in this thread (including my own, if I may say so) are invaluable feedback about the merits and pitfalls of platform announcements.

And, stating the obvious here, this is a discussion forum after all. Not everyone will agree with every view, but better that than we close down the forum in favour of some dogmatic one-way push Comms from TfL airing "the professional staff view"!

 

[Jim the Jim]

Last time I was on the Underground (Kings Cross on a Saturday morning) I had to tell other passengers to wait to let others first, so I would have appreciated staff saying it.

But doubtless the need varies depending on the station, day and time.

 

[LU_timetabler]

The frequent commuter does know what to do on a platform around a train. But London has a lot of tourists and they may not. Ironically most stations only deploy SATS on the platform in the peak, which is mainly commuters. But generally they are there to keep the service moving in the peak. They are also an additional safety person, an extra set of eyes when the platform is busy. It is insulting to say they aren't doing anything. The phrases used are legally required. Sorry to regular tube users who find them annoying.

 

[xtmw]

Agreed

It's also worth noting it isn't down to the staff doing SATS duty when the trains door closes/departs, this decision remains with the driver.

Just imagine what threads would be opened here if SATS duties were to be stopped completely

 

[announcements]

Which is exactly why the boy who cries wolf springs to mind. When the person doing the SATS keeps saying stand clear of the doors when the doors aren't even anywhere near to be closing, people eventually cotton on to this and will disregard the information and still attempt to board. Only the T/Op controls the doors, as you say. And even if they are on the money and perfectly time their stand clear for the doors, do you think anyone who is going to make a run for it is going to take a blind bit of notice of the announcement either way? They'll carry on regardless - which will of course result in the CSA raising their voice and repeating the phrase in question! (Which is too late, but a warning for next time perhaps - assuming the lesson is learnt!)

How long has it been practice to have the SATS / platform announcing? I don't remember this being much or a thing, say, 20 years ago - or certainly not as many 'characters' behind the mic.

 

[bramling]

Which is exactly why the boy who cries wolf springs to mind. When the person doing the SATS keeps saying stand clear of the doors when the doors aren't even anywhere near to be closing, people eventually cotton on to this and will disregard the information and still attempt to board. Only the T/Op controls the doors, as you say. And even if they are on the money and perfectly time their stand clear for the doors, do you think anyone who is going to make a run for it is going to take a blind bit of notice of the announcement either way? They'll carry on regardless - which will of course result in the CSA raising their voice and repeating the phrase in question! (Which is too late, but a warning for next time perhaps - assuming the lesson is learnt!)

How long has it been practice to have the SATS / platform announcing? I don't remember this being much or a thing, say, 20 years ago - or certainly not as many 'characters' behind the mic.

If done correctly, the platform staff should be raising their baton and making relevant announcements at the optimum moment for the driver to close the doors. But this does rely on the station staff being adept, and the drivers doing their bit as well. Only occasionally should a scenario arise where the baton is raised and the train isn’t actually ready - for example if there’s a problem with the train, or the driver has been told to hold at the last moment.

The objective isn’t to ensure everyone does the right thing, but if a proportion of passengers can be influenced then overall dwell times can be reduced. Commuters are generally more receptive to this than tourists, hence you don’t tend to see “SATS” at weekends. Indeed, I suspect any driver would tell you that trying to manage dwell times at weekends is flogging a dead horse.

As for how long SATS has been going, it’s been a while now. Certainly 20 years or so.

 

[announcements]

Okay, all very interesting - thanks.

 

[Florence Rox]

Basically, when we are doing SATS properly, when the signal goes green, (there are repeater signals on the platform), we check to see if anyone is still boarding or alighting. If is it safe, we raise the baton. When the driver is about to close the doors, they bleep for a couple of seconds before closing. I only say "Mind the doors" when they are bleeping. This does significantly reduce dwell times during the peaks. Everyone is entitled to an opinion of course, and I welcome it as I am always looking for ways to improve, but there is a difference between stating an opinion, and abusing staff. Which platforms are staffed and when is a management decision, and not a decision made by the individual members of staff.

 

[xtmw]

Basically, when we are doing SATS properly, when the signal goes green, (there are repeater signals on the platform)

In addition on the Jubilee and Northern lines there are RTDI (ready to depart indicators), usually found in the middle of the platform. Does what it says on the tin, illuminates white when the train is ready to depart.
Central Line platform indicators are tied in with the signalling system so display 'Mind the doors' when the train is ready to depart.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How long has it been practice to have the SATS / platform announcing? I don't remember this being much or a thing, say, 20 years ago - or certainly not as many 'characters' behind the mic.

It was annoying me back when I commuted to London around 2005. "Standclearofthedoorsmindthedoorsmindthedoorsmindthedoors" is just unnecessary when "beepbeepbeep" tells you the same thing. Blow a whistle (once*) if you must. It seems to be a curious irritation of the subsurface lines and happens far less on the deep Tube.

* Not constantly as per Clapham Junction, that's just pointless.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Nov 2024 ==

there is a difference between stating an opinion, and abusing staff

Abusing staff is never acceptable. If someone has an issue with it a complaint to management is the way to make their views known.

 

[announcements]

Absolutely, abuse of staff is clearly unacceptable.

Okay, I have another question -- are there guidelines around the style of SATS duty platform announcing? Given these announcements are manually made by staff, there is inevitably a great deal of variation. In some ways this can be a good thing as reflects the diversity of the workforce, people giving their own style etc. However, I think what can irritate commuters is when the person behind the mic is trying to be a comedian or putting on a funny voice. Sometimes it can come across as performative rather than taking the role seriously; remember, the end user of the announcements is always the customer, not the person providing the announcement for their own amusement. I am not for one moment saying that every staff member does this, but there are some out there. Moreover, I am not suggesting this is done with negative intent by those I am referring to, but need to recognise how this may come across to the customer.

 

[infobleep]

I was going to start a thread but I don't have to.

There are minor delays on the Jubilee line this evening and at Waterloo in came a west bound train. I was at the front end of the platform and the platform was fairly busy but not rammed.

First train came in rammed and every who wanted to get off did and some people got on until there was no space.

In came a second train shortly afterwards. Within 1 minute.

As people were still trying to get off the front carriage, a platform announcer starting telling people to stand back from platform edge. The doors started closing as people including people with prams were still trying to get off.

They tried two or three times to close the doors. They eventually asked people at the end of carriages to stand back. I thunk it was aimed at people on the platform.

I'm am assuming it was all safe as the train won't depart with people getting off.

However, in such circumstances, when the platform announcer says stand back from the platform edge, should passengers on the train stand back and be overcarried or should they ignore the instruction and carry on trying to get off, whilst they try to close rhe doors?

Everyone did get off and a few did manage to get on and the train departed with space on it.

The next train arrived in around 2 minutes and was also rammed. They gave people more time to get off and board this one, even though there was also train about 1 minute behind this one, like the previous 2.

It was a different announcer this time.

 

[Central]

When they had regular off peak reversers at Kings Cross and Victoria on the Victoria Line there were station staff giving the “all change”announcement over the PA and checking the train was empty before giving the T/Op the right to proceed to the sdgs.

 

[bramling]

I was going to start a thread but I don't have to.

There are minor delays on the Jubilee line this evening and at Waterloo in came a west bound train. I was at the front end of the platform and the platform was fairly busy but not rammed.

First train came in rammed and every who wanted to get off did and some people got on until there was no space.

In came a second train shortly afterwards. Within 1 minute.

As people were still trying to get off the front carriage, a platform announcer starting telling people to stand back from platform edge. The doors started closing as people including people with prams were still trying to get off.

They tried two or three times to close the doors. They eventually asked people at the end of carriages to stand back. I thunk it was aimed at people on the platform.

I'm am assuming it was all safe as the train won't depart with people getting off.

However, in such circumstances, when the platform announcer says stand back from the platform edge, should passengers on the train stand back and be overcarried or should they ignore the instruction and carry on trying to get off, whilst they try to close rhe doors?

Everyone did get off and a few did manage to get on and the train departed with space on it.

The next train arrived in around 2 minutes and was also rammed. They gave people more time to get off and board this one, even though there was also train about 1 minute behind this one, like the previous 2.

It was a different announcer this time.

If the doors are going to close then from a safety point of view yes you are probably better to get carried on to the next station. For the sake of a couple of minutes it really isn’t worth taking the chance of getting some clothing caught in the doors and the potential risk of being dragged (albeit not really likely at a PED station).

Sometimes it is difficult for the driver to judge if people are still slighting, especially if people are all trying to use a small part of the train. This is why it is often counter-wise to travel in the part of the train where the door will stop next to your exit - it’s okay if you’re the only person, but works less well if everyone has the same idea. In fact it’s quite an operational nuisance.

 

[Turtle]

Why is it that they fill the station with pretty much irrelevant information all the time, from the arrival of the train to the departure.

Stand back from the platform edge, let passengers off the train first, mind the doors etc. irrelevant for most people

Yesterday I was standing on the platform at bank with a full train standing in the platform for a good 10 minutes and everyone wondering what was going on. Something that the announcer could provide some useful information, even if it's only apologising for the delay but we should be underway soon so passengers standing there know it's only a minor and don't need to look for alternatives but alas no, silence!! Suddenly about 10 minutes later they chirp up - this train is ready to depart, mind the doors as they were shutting.. I think everyone on the platform knew that. The irony of the train has been ready to depart for 10 minutes but I assume there was something happening further along was completely lost.

My frustration is that their union will be the first to get upset if they were replaced by automatic announcements but if they're not going to provide anything that an automatic announcement can't then to me they have limited purpose

Have you not considered that the individual at platform level may not have been informed of the reason for the delay.

 

[infobleep]

If the doors are going to close then from a safety point of view yes you are probably better to get carried on to the next station. For the sake of a couple of minutes it really isn’t worth taking the chance of getting some clothing caught in the doors and the potential risk of being dragged (albeit not really likely at a PED station).

Sometimes it is difficult for the driver to judge if people are still slighting, especially if people are all trying to use a small part of the train. This is why it is often counter-wise to travel in the part of the train where the door will stop next to your exit - it’s okay if you’re the only person, but works less well if everyone has the same idea. In fact it’s quite an operational nuisance.

So is it the driver who tells the platform announcer when to tell people to stand back as the train is about to depart? I don't mean directly tells them, but gives some sign.

 

[rebmcr]

So is it the driver who tells the platform announcer when to tell people to stand back as the train is about to depart? I don't mean directly tells them, but gives some sign.

I believe the platform announcer keeps an eye on the platform starting signal.

 

[Dstock7080]

I believe the platform announcer keeps an eye on the platform starting signal.

Or the RTD Ready To Depart indicator on the various ATO systems