Great Northern Fleet - 379s introduction

[bramling]

Caught a glimpse of what I think was a de-branded class 387 earlier, think it was one of the 387101-29 batch. So looks like things might be starting to happen now.

 

[Azuma800]

Caught a glimpse of what I think was a de-branded class 387 earlier, think it was one of the 387101-29 batch. So looks like things might be starting to happen now.

It's definitely happening, managed to quickly capture this at Cambridge yesterday.

 

[Julia]

387128 noted de-branded this morning.

 

[bramling]

It's definitely happening, managed to quickly capture this at Cambridge yesterday.

Glad to see this and that it wasn’t my imagination!

So presumption it is some or all of the 101-129 batch that are going south? Presumably it is going to be a fixed set of units, rather than rotated around like used to happen when the 700/0s had a captive set of GN diagrams?

Would be nice if GN kept the GWR-interior units as they are. I find that interior scheme rather more restful, and from overhearing comments from others I don’t seem to be alone in this.

 

[physics34]

Glad to see this and that it wasn’t my imagination!

So presumption it is some or all of the 101-129 batch that are going south? Presumably it is going to be a fixed set of units, rather than rotated around like used to happen when the 700/0s had a captive set of GN diagrams?

Would be nice if GN kept the GWR-interior units as they are. I find that interior scheme rather more restful, and from overhearing comments from others I don’t seem to be alone in this.

128, 129 and the two ex GWR ones to SN first... is the rumour

 

[bramling]

128, 129 and the two ex GWR ones to SN first... is the rumour

I see. The one nice thing GN has had since the 365s, and they’re going!

The GWR units are already debranded, but perhaps might always have been so.

Any hint on timescales for these units transferring? It seems something of a stretch that GN will losing at least four units AND introducing three extra peak services with the 379s apparently not quite ready.

 

[Robski]

128, 129 and the two ex GWR ones to SN first... is the rumour

I thought there were three ex-GWR 387s at GN? It would be odd to split them up.

The GWR units are already debranded, but perhaps might always have been so.

They never had external GN branding.

 

[physics34]

I thought there were three ex-GWR 387s at GN? It would be odd to split them up.

They never had external GN branding.

I've got my numbers mixed up again.. it must be the three then. Like I said word of mouth within GTR rather than anything solid.... but at least it looks like there is a bit of truth in it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Nov 2024 ==

I see. The one nice thing GN has had since the 365s, and they’re going!

The GWR units are already debranded, but perhaps might always have been so.

Any hint on timescales for these units transferring? It seems something of a stretch that GN will losing at least four units AND introducing three extra peak services with the 379s apparently not quite ready.

Ready for December 14th timetable it seems... it looks maybe a handful of 379s may well be ready in time...and training, or should I say, a drivers brief, has already started.

I'm not sure how many extra southern services are running from December.. I've only seen a couple of peak- LBG to Norwood/Suttons.

 

[aftv]

I'm not sure how many extra southern services are running from December.. I've only seen a couple of peak- LBG to Norwood/Suttons.

Theres a Littlehampton - London Bridge Via Bognor and Return trip Monday - Thurs only too.

 

[jon0844]

1 x 8 car 379 morning and evening for London to Peterborough from December, then in 2025 they'll be introduced for King's Lynn services and a handful of 2C and 2L for operational reasons.

I'm told there's a lot of work that needs to be done because they clearly weren't kept in warm storage as auggested. Besides mould on the seats and floor, there are other parts that were rotten and had to be replaced.

But we're one step closer to their introduction and in terms of first class, they beat the 700s and 387s hands down. Will people start to pay the premium again through?

 

[bramling]

1 x 8 car 379 morning and evening for London to Peterborough from December, then in 2025 they'll be introduced for King's Lynn services and a handful of 2C and 2L for operational reasons.

I'm told there's a lot of work that needs to be done because they clearly weren't kept in warm storage as auggested. Besides mould on the seats and floor, there are other parts that were rotten and had to be replaced.

But we're one step closer to their introduction and in terms of first class, they beat the 700s and 387s hands down. Will people start to pay the premium again through?

I don’t think any of this should come as a surprise, some of the units were left in an open siding at Harwich for some time as I recall.

Doing some crunching, and taking in the various comments here, I make December GN to be:
387 - 29 from 33
379 - 6 from 30, with 4 of these covered by 700/0 initially
700/0 - 8 GN diagrams though 2 of these are mixed with Sevenoaks trips
700/1 - 1 GN diagram

Does this sound right?

This all looks rather tight, so either some of the 387s won’t be able to head to Southern as soon as planned, or we’re gonna be back to some rough 700 availability again.

 

[D365]

One would imagine that 387101 is remaining north of the river, given that it’s been fitted with ETCS.

Makes me wonder how many of the 387/1s were due to be fitted, and whether they will still be going for fitment.

 

[xxjcz]

I’d hazard a guess that whatever 387s stay will be ETCS fitted along with all the 379s and the ones that go south won’t be.

Would be interesting to see if the 3 ex-GWR 387s do go down south will GTR pay for these to be refurbished or keep them unbranded. Seems to make more sense to keep them at GN since the commuters are already familiar with these units and would save some money.

Also would be interesting to see if the 6 387/3’s stay put or go south.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Nov 2024 ==

I don’t think any of this should come as a surprise, some of the units were left in an open siding at Harwich for some time as I recall.

Doing some crunching, and taking in the various comments here, I make December GN to be:
387 - 29 from 33
379 - 6 from 30, with 4 of these covered by 700/0 initially
700/0 - 8 GN diagrams though 2 of these are mixed with Sevenoaks trips
700/1 - 1 GN diagram

Does this sound right?

This all looks rather tight, so either some of the 387s won’t be able to head to Southern as soon as planned, or we’re gonna be back to some rough 700 availability again.

I thought the 700/0’s only had 5 gn diagrams, will this be increased in December to 8 then?

I thought it would only increase to 7 max to cover the 379s at first?

I appreciate this probably isn’t the thread for this

 

[bramling]

I’d hazard a guess that whatever 387s stay will be ETCS fitted along with all the 379s and the ones that go south won’t be.

Would be interesting to see if the 3 ex-GWR 387s do go down south will GTR pay for these to be refurbished or keep them unbranded. Seems to make more sense to keep them at GN since the commuters are already familiar with these units and would save some money.

Also would be interesting to see if the 6 387/3’s stay put or go south.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Nov 2024 ==


I thought the 700/0’s only had 5 gn diagrams, will this be increased in December to 8 then?

I thought it would only increase to 7 max to cover the 379s at first?

I appreciate this probably isn’t the thread for this

Correct there are 5x now. I am seeing 8x GN 700/0 diagrams from December, not including anything covering for 379s. However it’s a bit more blurred than this as two of the diagrams will partially inter work with the Sevenoaks services, so there might be some tighter utilisation coming from that.

Note that GN outers had 8x 700/0 diagrams from 2018, so pushing back up to 8x shouldn’t be a problem on paper. In practice it might be though, as the reduction in 700/0 usage has allowed some cover for unavailable 700/1s. Clearly a tightening up of the diagrams will render this less feasible.

Must admit I’d have expected GN to keep the 3x GWR units plus the 387/3s. But ETCS may well be a factor here. And it has never been officially stated (in the public domain) how many 387s GN is to keep. If they can milk the 700s and perhaps even the 717s then GN could just about scrape by with only the 387/3s.

 

[xxjcz]

Do you happen to know what diagrams mix with the Sevenoaks ones?

Also, does that mean nearly all 2C/2L diagrams will be 700 or will they still be mixed with 387s and then 379s?

GN seem reluctant to do anything related with the 717s.

 

[Robski]

GN seem reluctant to do anything related with the 717s.

There is a plan to recertify the 717s for 100mph operation, which is required if they are to be used on anything other than GN metro.

 

[bramling]

Do you happen to know what diagrams mix with the Sevenoaks ones?

There’s two. One starts with a Cambridge, and then goes onto Sevenoaks runs for the rest of the day. The other does the opposite.

Also, does that mean nearly all 2C/2L diagrams will be 700 or will they still be mixed with 387s and then 379s

Still a mix of 700/0 and 387. Though with some minor shuffle round compared with today. I haven’t looked at what the weekends do, but presumably similar.

 

[Chiltern006]

Would be interesting to see if the 3 ex-GWR 387s do go down south will GTR pay for these to be refurbished or keep them unbranded. Seems to make more sense to keep them at GN since the commuters are already familiar with these units and would save some money.

Imagine the confusion at a place like Southampton, with proper GWR services running…

For this matter I’d hope they’d do something, even if that’s blasting the Southern logo along the side

 

[Bikeman78]

I'm told there's a lot of work that needs to be done because they clearly weren't kept in warm storage as auggested. Besides mould on the seats and floor, there are other parts that were rotten and had to be replaced

I went past Worksop last week. The class 379s there looked rather faded and run down.

 

[dk1]

I went past Worksop last week. The class 379s there looked rather faded and run down.

That’s a shame as the four stored at Crown Point looked like new. I’m sure they’ll scrub up well.

 

[Magdalia]

There’s two. One starts with a Cambridge, and then goes onto Sevenoaks runs for the rest of the day. The other does the opposite.

I was intrigued by this, and it looks like it is a typical bit of creative GN diagramming that saves a unit.

The 0526 ex Cambridge goes cars to Welwyn to form the 0802 to Sevenoaks, with the 0727 to Cambridge formed off the 0605 from Peterborough.

It works the other way round in the evening. The 1727 ex Cambridge forms the 1918 to Peterborough and the 1927 to Cambridge comes empty from Welwyn after working the 1652 from Sevenoaks.

 

[43074]

I was intrigued by this, and it looks like it is a typical bit of creative GN diagramming that saves a unit.

The 0526 ex Cambridge goes cars to Welwyn to form the 0802 to Sevenoaks, with the 0727 to Cambridge formed off the 0605 from Peterborough.

It works the other way round in the evening. The 1727 ex Cambridge forms the 1918 to Peterborough and the 1927 to Cambridge comes empty from Welwyn after working the 1652 from Sevenoaks.

Saving that unit and reducing the float of maintenance spares on GN (there are 31 diagrams for 38 387s at the moment) is what frees up the 387s which are moving to Southern for December.

The new timetable will stretch Class 700 8-car availability for a few months whilst the Class 379s are coming on stream as it relies on using 'spare' 700s from elsewhere on the network to cover the Letchworth/Peterborough services in the interim for a month or so until more Class 379s enter traffic.

 

[Magdalia]

there are 31 diagrams for 38 387s at the moment

Things aren't what thy used to be.

When I was commuting, the GN outer suburban fleet was 40*365, 13*321 and 12*317. The weekday peak required 60 of 65 units in traffic.

 

[dk1]

Things aren't what thy used to be.

When I was commuting, the GN outer suburban fleet was 40*365, 13*321 and 12*317. The weekday peak required 60 of 65 units in traffic.

Hasn’t Thameslink taken over much of this now though? And they are all 8 or 12-car trains.

 

[bramling]

Hasn’t Thameslink taken over much of this now though? And they are all 8 or 12-car trains.

I think the point he is making is that in times past they were diagramming 60 out of 65, yet now aren’t doing anything like that with the 387s.

There are a couple of differences. Firstly the 387s have been having various works done to them, such as ETCS and refurbishment. Secondly in times past many more diagrams went into Hornsey (and elsewhere) during the midday period, whereas nowadays comparatively few do. This is a combination of fewer peak extras (especially post 2020), and longer formations during the midday period.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

I went past Worksop last week. The class 379s there looked rather faded and run down.

There is a rail maintenance company which will do any of the maintenance works which is called Harry Needle train maintenance company. So, I expect that they will do maintenance work before they go to Hornsey to get ready for passenger service.

 

[bramling]

Saving that unit and reducing the float of maintenance spares on GN (there are 31 diagrams for 38 387s at the moment) is what frees up the 387s which are moving to Southern for December.

The new timetable will stretch Class 700 8-car availability for a few months whilst the Class 379s are coming on stream as it relies on using 'spare' 700s from elsewhere on the network to cover the Letchworth/Peterborough services in the interim for a month or so until more Class 379s enter traffic.

It’s going to be a rough period for class 700 users I suspect. 700/0s are already being used regularly to cover 700/1 diagrams.

On a different note, I’m seeing a couple of 700/0 trips to Kings Lynn on Saturdays from December. Can anyone confirm?

 

[jon0844]

I hope they fix the PIS, as the 379 out for testing shows Kings Cross (not King's Cross) but while that's pretty pedantic, it has 'Hadley wood' for some reason. Every other station I saw was fully first character upper case, but it seems like someone perhaps rushed to set it up. I wonder what the announcements will be like?

 

[PointA Rail]

Two more units have come to Hornsey Depot earlier this afternoon. I didn't see the unit numbers but they were brought down by 57303 on the up fasts which is weird.

 

[xxjcz]

Two more units have come to Hornsey Depot earlier this afternoon. I didn't see the unit numbers but they were brought down by 57303 on the up fasts which is weird.

Anyone know what 379s 57303 is taking back to nene?