Edited: Southern Witness Statement with previous fine

[bobross22]

Hi all. Wondering if anyone can give me some advice regarding the issue I’m facing. Appreciate any and all assistance.

Last night I was travelling from London to Hove via Clapham junction on a southeastern train, bought a Trainline ticket from Hayward’s Heath to Hove last night on a disabled railcard which I don’t own. I have done this many times since I first learned I could do it in late 2023, maybe in total about 10-15 times, usually for journeys between London and Brighton, and when I present my tickets when asked I never get asked for the rail card. Illegal I know, but I do it to save a bit on rail fares. I got to Hove station and saw guards checking tickets, so panicked and bought a Preston park to Hove ticket but stupidly I used the disabled railcard ticket from Haywards Heath instead which led to me getting cautioned by a rail guard and being issued with a witness statement.

I’m aware that I’ll get a letter in the mail, and that I’ll need to respond saying that I accept what I did was wrong, apologise profusely, that I understand the severity of the issue, and ask if I can settle out of court and pay the fine which will likely be a couple of hundred pounds. Will see what the letter says when it arrives, but assuming they make no mention of previous journeys, I won’t mention them and will send a reply via post (with proof of postage) as well as an email from a non-Trainline email adress.

My worry is that in 2018, I had just moved to the UK and genuinely bought the wrong paper ticket for a Thameslink train from Brighton to London and got stopped by a guard who would not accept that I was new to the county and it was an honest mistake. Gave my details but never got a letter so thought nothing of it. Fast forward to 2021 and I get a letter sent to my work saying that I need to go to court for the 2018 incident. I did explain the situation that I hadn’t received correspondence from them, and after a lengthy process of back and forth, they were understanding and I ended up paying a fine of £373 through a Proved Single Justice Procedure that took place in 2019 without me knowing.

My worry is that will the chance to settle this new witness statement/caution from south eastern with an out of court settlement be affected by this previous incident with thameslink? And if so, what is the best way to go about it?

Apologies for the long post, I’m hoping that if I reply promptly and courteously that it will get sorted quickly with no further investigation but just wondering if anyone has experienced something similar or has further advice for me.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi all. Wondering if anyone can give me some advice regarding the issue I’m facing. Appreciate any and all assistance.

Last night I was travelling from London to Hove via Clapham junction on a southeastern train, bought a Trainline ticket from Hayward’s Heath to Hove last night on a disabled railcard which I don’t own. I have done this many times since I first learned I could do it in late 2023, maybe in total about 10-15 times, usually for journeys between London and Brighton, and when I present my tickets when asked I never get asked for the rail card. Illegal I know, but I do it to save a bit on rail fares. I got to Hove station and saw guards checking tickets, so panicked and bought a Preston park to Hove ticket but stupidly I used the disabled railcard ticket from Haywards Heath instead which led to me getting cautioned by a rail guard and being issued with a witness statement.

I’m aware that I’ll get a letter in the mail, and that I’ll need to respond saying that I accept what I did was wrong, apologise profusely, that I understand the severity of the issue, and ask if I can settle out of court and pay the fine which will likely be a couple of hundred pounds. Will see what the letter says when it arrives, but assuming they make no mention of previous journeys, I won’t mention them and will send a reply via post (with proof of postage) as well as an email from a non-Trainline email adress.

My worry is that in 2018, I had just moved to the UK and genuinely bought the wrong paper ticket for a Thameslink train from Brighton to London and got stopped by a guard who would not accept that I was new to the county and it was an honest mistake. Gave my details but never got a letter so thought nothing of it. Fast forward to 2021 and I get a letter sent to my work saying that I need to go to court for the 2018 incident. I did explain the situation that I hadn’t received correspondence from them, and after a lengthy process of back and forth, they were understanding and I ended up paying a fine of £373 through a Proved Single Justice Procedure that took place in 2019 without me knowing.

My worry is that will the chance to settle this new witness statement/caution from south eastern with an out of court settlement be affected by this previous incident with thameslink? And if so, what is the best way to go about it?

Apologies for the long post, I’m hoping that if I reply promptly and courteously that it will get sorted quickly with no further investigation but just wondering if anyone has experienced something similar or has further advice for me.

Worth clarifying one thing: Are you sure it was Southeastern/ South eastern do not go London to Hove. Could it be Southern railway? (Southern and Thameslink are brands of the same group - but in any case you can expect previous evasion info will be available across all train operators).

Previous evasion could (arguably should) increase the chances of prosecution - essentially you were caught before, escaped prosecution, and from their point of view did not learn any lesson but carried on evading the fare.

However, all you can do is apologise and seek to persuade them once again to settle out of court and see how you get on.

Also is there a reason why you don't actually buy a railcard that you might be entitled to? Like a Network Railcard (I assume perhaps because the Network Card has less generous use restrictions than a Disabled persons railcard?). Or are you actually entitled to Disabled Persons railcard but have not actually bought one?

Advice on these forums is usually limited to just that - advice - but i feel that that claiming a Disabled Persons Discount if you don't have a qualifying disability takes things to another level because it may make things harder for disabled people who may then find Inspectors treating them harshly if they assume that they too might in fact be fare evading. Given the challenges people with disabilities have to overcome in life, many people might think that you should 'have the book thrown at you' - so you need to think about the consequences of what you have been doing. Most importantly, you need to convince the Railway company you have thought about that and have changed your ways.

 

[bobross22]

Thanks very much for your reply.

Yes, my apologies, it is southern and not south eastern, so it will likely end up being the same company that prosecuted me in 2018 then? If it makes any difference, the previous prosecution was with a printed ticket and a different postal address rather than through Trainline and my current address.

I am on the autism spectrum and so am actually able to get a disabled railcard, but cannot afford a private diagnosis that counts as proof of disability which the NHS does not offer. However, I am aware that at the end of the day what I have been doing is illegal and am willing to cooperate with whatever process they wish to pursue.

I guess my main question is if they do choose to “throw the book at me”, what will this entail? I guess I can’t really know until the letter is sent to me.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks very much for your reply.

Yes, my apologies, it is southern and not south eastern, so it will likely end up being the same company that prosecuted me in 2018 then? If it makes any difference, the previous prosecution was with a printed ticket and a different postal address rather than through Trainline and my current address.

I am on the autism spectrum and so am actually able to get a disabled railcard, but cannot afford a private diagnosis that counts as proof of disability which the NHS does not offer. However, I am aware that at the end of the day what I have been doing is illegal and am willing to cooperate with whatever process they wish to pursue.

I guess my main question is if they do choose to “throw the book at me”, what will this entail? I guess I can’t really know until the letter is sent to me.

Thanks for clarifying, and for clarifying about your personal circumstances.

I doubt it will make much difference that they are the same company - but it will mean the chance that they will notice is higher, but they probably would have found out earlier.

I guess you have had a good look at the Disabled Persons T&Cs to check your eligibility given what you say - if you can't satisfy the criteria info requirements then I'd urge you to get a Railcard that you can use eg Network railcard which would regularise discounts subject to your travel and the conditions of that Railcard.

By 'throw the book' I meant send the matter for prosecution. But i think you will still have the chance to ask for and get an out of court settlement but you may have to work a bit harder for it in terms of the points you make when you respond to whatever they send you.

Be prepared for them to identify the other occasions when the Disabled railcard discount has been applied to tickets you have bought, and for them to seek payment for those as part of any settlement offer you can persuade them to make.

 

[bobross22]

Thanks for clarifying.

I doubt it will make much difference that they are the same company - but it will mean the chance that they will notice is higher, but they probably would have found out earlier.

I guess you have a hd a good look at the Disabled Persons T&Cs to check your eligibility given what you say - if you can't satisfy the criteria info requirements then I'd urge you to get a Railcard that you can use eg Network railcard which would regularise discounts subject to your travel and the conditions of that Railcard.

By 'throw the book' I meant send the matter for prosecution. But i think you will still have the chance to ask for and get an out of court settlement but you may have to work a bit harder for it in terms of the points you make.

Thanks so much for the reply, I appreciate it! I’ll be sure to post any updates

 

[notmyrealname]

I am on the autism spectrum and so am actually able to get a disabled railcard, but cannot afford a private diagnosis that counts as proof of disability which the NHS does not offer. However, I am aware that at the end of the day what I have been doing is illegal and am willing to cooperate with whatever process they wish to pursue.

I don't know the answer to this but is it possible to get a GP confirmation of the diagnosis? Unless the diagnosis wasn't in the UK.

 

[LalRattyMember]

I am on the autism spectrum and so am actually able to get a disabled railcard, but cannot afford a private diagnosis that counts as proof of disability which the NHS does not offer. However, I am aware that at the end of the day what I have been doing is illegal and am willing to cooperate with whatever process they wish to pursue.

I don't know the answer to this but is it possible to get a GP confirmation of the diagnosis? Unless the diagnosis wasn't in the UK.

Depending on which part of the country you are in, it is possible that there is an autism service, including diagnosis, where you can self-refer without need to see a GP. It might be worth a quick check online to see what's available in your area.

 

[AlterEgo]

I am on the autism spectrum and so am actually able to get a disabled railcard, but cannot afford a private diagnosis that counts as proof of disability

This alone does not qualify you for the Disabled Railcard. The criteria are below:

• receive Personal Independence Payment (PIP) or Adult Disability Payment (ADP)
• receive Disability Living Allowance (DLA) or Child Disability Payment(CDP) at either:
  • the higher or lower rate for the mobility component, or
  • the higher or middle rate for the care component
• have a visual impairment
• have a hearing impairment
• have epilepsy
• receive Attendance Allowance, Severe Disablement Allowance or Pension Age Disability Payment (PADP)
• receive War Pensioner's Mobility Supplement
• receive War or Service Disablement Pension for 80% or more disability
• buy or lease a vehicle through the Motability scheme

 

[WesternLancer]

This alone does not qualify you for the Disabled Railcard. The criteria are below:

• receive Personal Independence Payment (PIP) or Adult Disability Payment (ADP)
• receive Disability Living Allowance (DLA) or Child Disability Payment(CDP) at either:
  • the higher or lower rate for the mobility component, or
  • the higher or middle rate for the care component
• have a visual impairment
• have a hearing impairment
• have epilepsy
• receive Attendance Allowance, Severe Disablement Allowance or Pension Age Disability Payment (PADP)
• receive War Pensioner's Mobility Supplement
• receive War or Service Disablement Pension for 80% or more disability
• buy or lease a vehicle through the Motability scheme

This was my recollection - the proof of disability to satisfy the Disabled Railcard entitlement is thus the proof required to satisfy entitlements to things on that list (and IIRC the railcard application form goes into slightly more detail where required). Not an uncommon approach to satisfy entitlement criteria to things like this that are essentially 'passported' via other entitlements.
ie a diagnosis (whether private or from the NHS) would only be of any help in getting a railcard if that diagnosis triggered entitlement to one of the criteria - and I would guess in the case of Autism that would be most likely to be a criteria that meant one was entitled to receive one of the social security benefit payments listed. I assume the OP isn't in receipt of any of those.