East West Rail (EWR) Consultation - speculation

[Bletchleyite]

I've created this thread to continue speculative discussion regarding the East West Rail consultation to keep this out of the updates thread, for example:

• Alternative routes
• Alternative plans to the 5 stations one
• Denbigh East Curve
• Services running via MKC

Go!

East West Rail: Stations between Bletchley and Bedford could shut

It is not clear how many would be affected, but EWR says it could mean shorter journey times.

www.bbc.co.uk

A number of stations on the railway between Bletchley and Bedford could be closed under proposals for the East West Rail (EWR) line.

EWR said a number of stations may need to be consolidated or built to offer more services.

A 10-week consultation on the plans,, external which could also see changes to stations in Bedford and more financial support for landowners, is under way.

Under the proposals, stations at Bedford and Bletchley would be upgraded, although Bedford St John's would be moved closer to the town's hospital.

But it could mean changes for the other stations on the Marston Vale Line.

Option one involves retaining the existing 12 stations in their current locations, but option two would mean building new combined stations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Regarding station closures, the proposals depend too much on the car. I could be sold on some of them (for instance is Kempston Hardwick needed as Wixams will replace it) but I seriously question why Bedford St John's is needed so close to Midland if losing it could allow an east MK station to be retained. Similarly the consultation needs to take into account ecotown plans and cycle provision (e.g. a direct path between Apsley Guise and Woburn Sands - the route that exists is rather hilly), not just hint at one. And perhaps Redway and crossing improvements around Fenny.

 

[DarloRich]

Regarding station closures, the proposals depend too much on the car.

agreed - there are only buses from Fenny ( that take over an hour some days to reach MK) and a few from Woburn. Nothing else. If my local station closes i will buy a car and drive to work.

 

[zwk500]

Regarding station closures, the proposals depend too much on the car. I could be sold on some of them (for instance is Kempston Hardwick needed as Wixams will replace it) but I seriously question why Bedford St John's is needed so close to Midland if losing it could allow an east MK station to be retained. Similarly the consultation needs to take into account ecotown plans and cycle provision (e.g. a direct path between Apsley Guise and Woburn Sands - the route that exists is rather hilly), not just hint at one. And perhaps Redway and crossing improvements around Fenny.

I think there's a strong argument that 1 of Fenny Stratford or Bow Brickhill could be lost, 1 of Lidlington and Ridgmont could go, and that 1 of Woburn or Aspley Guise *should* be lost, as well as argument to lose Milbrook and Kempston Hardwick completely (Stewartby and Wixams would continue to serve the area). Of the 3 pairs I'd probably keep Bow Brickhill (sorry Darlorich) on the condition there's infill between the station and village, keep Woburn as it's on the more natural main road, and keep Ridgmont for a Parkway-type station. If Fenny can be doubled, then I might keep that over Bow Brickhill.
Fundamentally this line has too many stations to have both a local and regional service. If the longer-distance trains are to run then some local stops do need to be pulled.
Bedford St Johns is on a corner and does give access to a decent chunk of Bedford that would find it hard to access Bedford Midland without a car - although there is a case St Johns could be lost if it was replaced by a station further south near where the line crosses the MML.

ALL of this would be accompanied by a comprehensive MK-Bedford cycle network and targeted development to provide medium-to-high density residential housing around station sites that could also support a local commercial centre. However I would include a provision in any masterplan that no future development infringes on a corridor wide enough for 4-tracking such that if an MK Metro ever comes about in any form, we can properly separate local and regional traffic.

 

[DarloRich]

Of the 3 pairs I'd probably keep Bow Brickhill (sorry Darlorich)

out of interest: why would you keep the smaller village station open? For Red Bull? ( whose staff do use the train actually!)

personally - if EW win and want to close stations we may as well close them all beyond the ones they wont to redevelop

 

[paul1609]

agreed - there are only buses from Fenny ( that take over an hour some days to reach MK) and a few from Woburn. Nothing else. If my local station closes i will buy a car and drive to work.

I found Fenny Stratford by accident trying to get to MK Dons. It's a mile walk from Bletchley Station and about 1/2 mile from Bletchley town centre and buses on a semi derelict industrial estate.

 

[Whistler40145]

Is the track layout on the Bletchley side of Fenny Stratford still single?

 

[DarloRich]

I found Fenny Stratford by accident trying to get to MK Dons. It's a mile walk from Bletchley Station and about 1/2 mile from Bletchley town centre and buses on a semi derelict industrial estate.

I don't understand what you are saying here. could you rephrase?

Is the track layout on the Bletchley side of Fenny Stratford still single?

Yes single from Fenny flyover junction ( technically from just after Cambridge sidings) to beyond the A5 dual carriage way bridge

 

[Whistler40145]

I don't understand what you are saying here. could you rephrase?

Yes single from Fenny flyover junction to beyond the A5 dual carriage way bridge

Does the line have necessary capacity to upgrade it to double track in the future?

 

[DarloRich]

Does the line have necessary capacity to upgrade it to double track in the future?

capacity or space?


It is possible ( in my non expert opinion) but tight space wise from Cambridge sidings to the flyover junction. From there, through Fenny Stratford station to the A5 bridge there is space ( tight in places). It was dual in the past. Fenny had 2 platforms in place until the mid 70's.

The A5 bridge will need rebuilding. I am told the river ouzel bridge is double track sized but cant confirm that

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't understand what you are saying here. could you rephrase?

It's never likely to have high demand is basically the sum up. What you do is something almost nobody else would even consider doing, they'd buy a bicycle in preference to it, let alone a car.

The one case where it could become well used would be if the Denbigh East Curve was built and it gained a direct service to MKC (and lost that to Bletchley as a result). Such a curve isn't just my invention - it came up on a thread a while back that Network Rail are thinking about the possibility at a very early stage and it potentially completely changes the EWR proposition.

 

[zwk500]

out of interest: why would you keep the smaller village station open? For Red Bull? ( whose staff do use the train actually!)

Because it's next to the estate of Caldecotte and is an obvious place to expand housing, it's also further from Bletchley station, which helps a bit with capacity and it means you can double the track through Fenny station area without needing to squeeze in the 2nd platform. Fenny Stratford is close enough to Bletchley station that it will be attractive to head there direct even if the local station remained open, if you needed a change, whereas Bow Brickhill can serve out to Wavendon Gate/Walnut tree with the redway network.
As I said, it's quite a close thing in my mind and if Fenny can be doubled without too much effort then I wouldn't be opposed to keeping it. Electrification is also another variable - if the all-stations is an EMU there's scope to keep more stations in as the acceleration would mitigate the stop times somewhat.

 

[DarloRich]

It's never likely to have high demand is basically the sum up.

especially if you run a totally unreliable service for 10 years!

 

[Bletchleyite]

especially if you run a totally unreliable service for 10 years!

Even if the service was perfect. People going from Fenny to Bletchley town centre won't take the train, they'll walk. People going from Fenny to Milton Keynes won't accept the change of train on such a short journey. It wouldn't surprise me if the number of people doing this daily were in the low tens or even single figures. Most likely the non-car-owners and non-cyclists will walk to the nearest bus stop with a frequent service such as that by Tesco on Saxon St if they want to go to Central MK.

 

[DarloRich]

Because it's next to the estate of Caldecotte and is an obvious place to expand housing

TBH if you keep it it should be moved about half a mile along the line to somewhere near old farm park to better service residents. Where it is it only services the industrial units next to the stations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

TBH if you keep it it should be moved about half a mile along the line to somewhere near old farm park to better service residents. Where it is it only services the industrial units next to the stations.

That could make sense but getting decent road access to it (it would also need to be an East MK Parkway for Cambridge and Oxford) would be challenging. I wonder if this is why they dropped it - it's very difficult to get the road access and parking needed to give it that role. On balance a relocated Woburn Sands onto a new bypass road (to remove the level crossing, making the existing road just a cycle/footpath bridge/underpass) which would follow the line of the present public footpath to the west of Woburn Sands would serve that Parkway role better.

 

[zwk500]

It is possible ( in my non expert opinion) but tight space wise from Cambridge sidings to the flyover junction. From there, through Fenny Stratford station to the A5 bridge there is space ( tight in places). It was dual in the past. Fenny had 2 platforms in place until the mid 70's.

The A5 bridge will need rebuilding. I am told the river ouzel bridge is double track sized but cant confirm that

Also not a track engineer, but having been involved in re-doubling jobs before - the A5 and River Ouzel bridges look like they would need additional spans or reconstruction, the Grand Union Canal bridge looks wide enough but would likely need renovation to the unused span. There's the level crossing and station itself obviously and whether the Watling Street bridge would be wide enough without sluing the track over, a potentially awkward bit at the junction for the flyover line (especially if that's double at the same time, which it almost certainly would be) before the redway bridge immediately east of Saxon Street which would likely need widening (don't think there's room to get a track out for only an extra span before Saxon St), and then reconfiguring the connection to the sidings as it'd now be joining a double-track passenger line.

2 Bridges requiring additional spans, 1 Bridge reconstruction, 1 bridge renovation, 1 level crossing and some sluing/remodelling of the track is a lot less work than some other proposals for redoubling, but would still be quite a job.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Nov 2024 ==

TBH if you keep it it should be moved about half a mile along the line to somewhere near old farm park to better service residents. Where it is it only services the industrial units next to the stations.

Also not opposed to this - the corridor to extend the grid road is there, and it could be a bridge this time to replace/ease pressure on Bow Brickhill Rd LX.

 

[DarloRich]

Even if the service was perfect. People going from Fenny to Bletchley town centre won't take the train, they'll walk. People going from Fenny to Milton Keynes won't accept the change of train on such a short journey.

they did before LNWR torpedoed the service! Most of those users were lost ( even to my office which should be more favourable to rail use!) when the service was tuned off for a year ( on top of several years of the 230's being useless)

Most likely the non-car-owners and non-cyclists will walk to the nearest bus stop with a frequent service such as that by Tesco on Saxon St if they want to go to Central MK.

Honestly, they don't. I switched to bus during the torpedoed period referred to above ( before I bought a car ) The bus from Fenny takes at least 45 minutes and more often over an hour. At peak hours it is very busy with kids going to school/college and people going to work at the hospital/ cleaning offices etc.

Anyone with a choice drives.

( BTW the ethnic demographic of those bus users at peak times is very indicative of our society and our local community!)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Anyone with a choice drives.

There is one, and only one, way you'll change that, and that's Denbigh East Curve providing a direct service to MKC. The journey time and unreliability of a change at Bletchley rules it out for all but the biggest public transport advocate. I'd cycle the journey over doing that, and it'd probably take about the same time.

 

[zwk500]

There is one, and only one, way you'll change that, and that's Denbigh East Curve providing a direct service to MKC. The journey time and unreliability of a change at Bletchley rules it out for all but the biggest public transport advocate. I'd cycle the journey over doing that, and it'd probably take about the same time.

Although I wouldn't say never, I'll be astonished if I see a Denbigh East curve in the next 50 years.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Although I wouldn't say never, I'll be astonished if I see a Denbigh East curve in the next 50 years.

I could see it post HS2 - to really get value from it all East West Rail services would need to go via Milton Keynes Central and that can't be pathed pre-HS2. But given how long HS2 will take, I probably agree. Anyway, that's getting speculative rather than discussing the consultation so let's leave it there.

With regard to the consultation, the flow of Fenny->Bletchley->MKC is going to be so small (and so small in potential) that it isn't really worth considering. You could probably give everyone who does that a free car and close Fenny and still save money!

 

[zwk500]

I could see it post HS2 - to really get value from it all East West Rail services would need to go via Milton Keynes Central and that can't be pathed pre-HS2. But given how long HS2 will take, I probably agree. Anyway, that's getting speculative rather than discussing the consultation so let's leave it there.

With regard to the consultation, the flow of Fenny->Bletchley->MKC is going to be so small (and so small in potential) that it isn't really worth considering. You could probably give everyone who does that a free car and close Fenny and still save money!

Agree. It will be interesting to see what, if anything, has changed from the previous consultation when I get time to go through it properly

 

[DynamicSpirit]

There is one, and only one, way you'll change that, and that's Denbigh East Curve providing a direct service to MKC. The journey time and unreliability of a change at Bletchley rules it out for all but the biggest public transport advocate. I'd cycle the journey over doing that, and it'd probably take about the same time.

Is that really necessary? Surely to provide services from Marston Vale to Milton Keynes, all that's required is to extend the existing MV service to MK via a reversal at Bletchley. Though making it half-hourly would also help make it more attractive. That would probably require adding a single bi-directional additional track between Bletchley and Milton Keynes - much less work than a whole new curve. The fast EWRail trains would not serve MK directly and that's fine-ish because people on those trains will generally be travelling a sufficiently long distance that they are more likely to be willing to change trains at Bletchley.

 

[Magdalia]

Denbigh East Curve

There is a reference to an east to north curve at Bletchley in the Technical Report section 14.3.4 Freight Opportunities

A greater opportunity for rerouting trains from Felixstowe would be generated with a direct connection from Cambridge onto the WCML. Such a connection could create demand for additional freight services, but would require an additional east to north curve, or chord, at Bletchley, to be in place. Supporting higher volumes of freight services would also require additional significant investment and infrastructure to support, including on the national network, particularly between Felixstowe and Cambridge. The EWR proposals in the Cambridge area will provide a building block for some of the enhancements required in this section, particularly through the proposed doubling of track on the Newmarket line to Cherry Hinton. In addition to the Bletchley curve and Cambridge upgrades, carrying more freight may require some further upgrades to the MVL from Bletchley to Bedford, although the current EWR proposals in that section, including the double tracking of Fenny Stratford and level crossings work, go some way in supporting higher volumes of freight in future.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is that really necessary? Surely to provide services from Marston Vale to Milton Keynes, all that's required is to extend the existing MV service to MK via a reversal at Bletchley.

You could do that, but in reality almost nobody wants to go to Bletchley aside from on a Saturday afternoon for the footy. It's a traffic source, primarily, not a traffic sink. MKC is where people want to go, as quickly as possible.

Though making it half-hourly would also help make it more attractive. That would probably require adding a single bi-directional additional track between Bletchley and Milton Keynes - much less work than a whole new curve. The fast EWRail trains would not serve MK directly and that's fine-ish because people on those trains will generally be travelling a sufficiently long distance that they are more likely to be willing to change trains at Bletchley.

I think Milton Keynes (and its likely doubling in size over the coming years) is so core to the premise of East West Rail that all services serving it is a sensible thing to do. I'm not sure of the value in direct Oxford-Bedford missing it out to be honest. It's like having trains bypass Warrington Central which would never be countenanced.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

You could do that, but in reality almost nobody wants to go to Bletchley aside from on a Saturday afternoon for the footy. It's a traffic source, primarily, not a traffic sink. MKC is where people want to go, as quickly as possible.

Maybe not many people want to go to Bletchley itself, but I'd imagine a lot of people want to go to London, and there would be some traffic for Watford and intermediate WCML stations, as well as (once EW Rail is built) people wanting to go towards Oxford. Making those people double back 3 miles in the wrong direction is probably not the best solution (although granted MK has some fast trains that don't currently stop at Bletchley).

I think Milton Keynes (and its likely doubling in size over the coming years) is so core to the premise of East West Rail that all services serving it is a sensible thing to do. I'm not sure of the value in direct Oxford-Bedford missing it out to be honest. It's like having trains bypass Warrington Central which would never be countenanced.

The difference is that having Oxford-Bedford etc. serving Milton Keynes - even if the chord was built - would involve trains making a round trip 6 mile detour together with a reversal - that's going to add a considerable time penalty for through passengers. Is that worth the benefit of no change for people heading towards Milton Keynes? Especially considering that post-HS2 more trains could stop at Bletchley, thereby providing a more frequent Bletchley-MK service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe not many people want to go to Bletchley itself, but I'd imagine a lot of people want to go to London, and there would be some traffic for Watford and intermediate WCML stations, as well as (once EW Rail is built) people wanting to go towards Oxford. Making those people double back 3 miles in the wrong direction is probably not the best solution (although granted MK has some fast trains that don't currently stop at Bletchley).

MKC has a vastly superior service to London compared to Bletchley (three additional fast trains per hour), thus most would probably choose to go to MKC. Bletchley has only a half-hourly fast service, and the most recent post-HS2 proposals I've seen actually reduce that in favour of more semifasts, it seems (possibly because those two fast services are suffering capacity problems at present - I personally tend to avoid them for that reason!)

It would be useful for intermediates, but I doubt most people want intermediates, and one of the three Avantis from MKC does call at Watford.

The difference is that having Oxford-Bedford etc. serving Milton Keynes - even if the chord was built - would involve trains making a round trip 6 mile detour together with a reversal - that's going to add a considerable time penalty for through passengers. Is that worth the benefit of no change for people heading towards Milton Keynes?

In my view yes, because I don't think very many people will be making through journeys. They don't on the X5 bus now (and didn't even when it actually operated through across Bedford), and even post HS2 travelling via London if you're actually going from Oxford to Cambridge is likely to be quicker (or certainly not slower) because you'd be using fast trains on both sides.

There's this image of mortarboarded professors sitting around a table with a picnic basket as they head to the opposite university for some sort of conference. That doesn't exist and won't in significant numbers (it will no doubt exist, albeit more likely in normal clothes with a takeaway coffee, but won't be a significant proportion of users). Milton Keynes, and commuting to the places at each end from places a bit nearer them, is the core. You could split the service at MKC without upsetting too many people, I reckon, but having it reverse there retains a through option for the few who will want it while providing better for what the actual demand is likely to be. The service is likely to have a usage pattern similar to Liverpool to Norwich - a through service providing for lots of overlapping short to medium length journeys but hardly anyone riding it from end to end, at least once all the enthusiasts have done it once to tick it off.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Electrification is also another variable - if the all-stations is an EMU there's scope to keep more stations in as the acceleration would mitigate the stop times somewhat.

What is this electrification I see you mention !!!!
Shurely if they were serious they wouldn't be storing nearly-new class 196s ready for EWR !!

 

[Bletchleyite]

What is this electrification I see you mention !!!!
Shurely if they were serious they wouldn't be storing nearly-new class 196s ready for EWR !!

The 196s are temporary.

 

[JonathanH]

The 196s are temporary.

While that is true, there has been some suggestion of their successors being as yet unbuilt battery units, and discontinuous electrification.