The £100m bat shed

[bahnause]

Forests are the natural state of the UK and would be what land would revert too of left alone . All the other habitats you mentioned are results of human intervention

Possibly forest is the state to which nature would develop if left alone now. It is certainly not the original natural condition. Numerous human influences are irreversible, hence the rapid decline in biodiversity. Even in a hundred years' time, lost plants or wolves or bears will not suddenly reappear out of nowhere.

 

[BlueLeanie]

Possibly forest is the state to which nature would develop if left alone now. It is certainly not the original natural condition. Numerous human influences are irreversible, hence the rapid decline in biodiversity. Even in a hundred years' time, lost plants or wolves or bears will not suddenly reappear out of nowhere.

Neither will the dinosaurs.

Which period is definitively perfect?

 

[bahnause]

Neither will the dinosaurs.

Which period is definitively perfect?

The last time I checked, dinosaurs were not wiped out by humans.

 

[JohnElliott]

As a slight digression, I was wondering if news of the cost of this structure has reached mainstream media? Because if it has, and they've not used the headline "Bat Shed Crazy", I will be extremely disappointed, to say the least.

The Telegraph has "‘It’s a bats--t bat house’: The villagers up in arms over HS2’s £100m shed" if that's any help.

 

[plugwash]

You get the same issues with government spending in general. People have very little idea of how much things actually cost and just see a big number without knowing why

A million pounds represents roughtly what an average person will be paid over their whole career. When we see multiple lifetimes worth of earnings being spent on what seem like relatively simple projects it's natural to go "WTF".

 

[Falcon1200]

Meanwhile, in Nottinghamshire, money has been spent on a fish pass;

Colwick: Work on 'England's largest' fish pass complete

The £12m project is designed to open up the River Trent for migratory fish like salmon and trout.

www.bbc.co.uk

Construction of a new fish pass, billed as the biggest in England, has been completed in Nottinghamshire.
The £12m fish pass at Colwick Country Park will open up the River Trent for migratory fish, such as salmon, trout and eels.

12 million pounds - For a concrete trench!!! Somehow this expenditure does not appear to have attracted vitriol and disbelief, unlike the bat tunnel, presumably because it is nothing to do with HS2? But the cost surely puts the latter in perspective.

 

[fishwomp]

Meanwhile, in Nottinghamshire, money has been spent on a fish pass;

Colwick: Work on 'England's largest' fish pass complete

The £12m project is designed to open up the River Trent for migratory fish like salmon and trout.

www.bbc.co.uk

12 million pounds - For a concrete trench!!! Somehow this expenditure does not appear to have attracted vitriol and disbelief, unlike the bat tunnel, presumably because it is nothing to do with HS2? But the cost surely puts the latter in perspective.

It's 200m long, the Bat tunnel is 1,000m long. Per metre the fish pass is 60% of the cost per metre of the bat cave. So, with the newly established benchmark thanks to HS2, it's actually very good value for money.

 

[ThirteenArches]

As someone pointed out earlier, you're getting het up about losing a pocketful of small change while behind your back someone empties your bank accounts. At the last estimate I heard for completion of the sorry stub that's left of HS2 (about £60 billion), £100 million represents 0.17% of the cost. The problem is the other 99.83%, £59,900,000,000 or so. HS2 are happily pushing this news because "little people" can understand the small number (a little hospital!), whereas the big number is just , well, benumbing.

The real problem is that central agencies have become so hollowed out of any sort of specialist expertise- they only recruit MBAs- that the consultants and contractors can tell them what they will be pleased to do, and how much they will be pleased to accept for it.

 

[Harpo]

It would be interesting to see a decent graphic of the HS2 route showing where external pressures have caused design change to the original scheme and the cost that has added. There will be many eye-watering trade-offs.

 

[Falcon1200]

Per metre the fish pass is 60% of the cost per metre of the bat cave.

Although the construction complications of building a robust and durable roof over a high speed railway line are surely greater than just digging a trench and lining it with concrete?!!

 

[Tetchytyke]

Although the construction complications of building a robust and durable roof over a high speed railway line are surely greater than just digging a trench and lining it with concrete?!!

A fish ladder is rather more complicated than "digging a trench", and digging a trench next to a live river involves rather more earthworks than building a mesh tunnel in a construction site.

And yet, despite all that, it was built for £60,000 a metre. The mesh tunnel will cost £100,000 a metre- only 166% (per metre) of the cost of the fish ladder.

As I said upthread, all this story proves is that HS2's management are either unwilling or unable to keep control of costs. I suspect unwilling. Those construction companies don't shower both main political parties with cash out of the goodness of their heart.

The real problem is that central agencies have become so hollowed out of any sort of specialist expertise- they only recruit MBAs- that the consultants and contractors can tell them what they will be pleased to do, and how much they will be pleased to accept for it.

I joke- but I'm also really not joking- that the MBA is at the very root of everything that is wrong with the modern world.

 

[The Planner]

A fish ladder is rather more complicated than "digging a trench", and digging a trench next to a live river involves rather more earthworks than building a mesh tunnel in a construction site.

And yet, despite all that, it was built for £60,000 a metre. The mesh tunnel will cost £100,000 a metre- only 166% (per metre) of the cost of the fish ladder.

As I said upthread, all this story proves is that HS2's management are either unwilling or unable to keep control of costs. I suspect unwilling. Those construction companies don't shower both main political parties with cash out of the goodness of their heart.

I joke- but I'm also really not joking- that the MBA is at the very root of everything that is wrong with the modern world.

How wide is the fish ladder versus its length? As i said earlier in thread, we should be looking at £ per m²

 

[fishwomp]

Although the construction complications of building a robust and durable roof over a high speed railway line are surely greater than just digging a trench and lining it with concrete?!!

Well, it isn't just the bat cave, it's also the bat signal.. and being on the railways, it has to be fail safe so is an entirely new design.

 

[InOban]

Watch today's Green Signals on YouTube

 

[Mogster]

Watch today's Green Signals on YouTube

Good analysis.

I still understand Thompson’s frustration when HS2 are constantly being bashed for how money has been spent. However in his position I’d want to get the facts correct as much as possible, inaccuracies always distract from the overall message.

The take away point imo is that 8000+ bodies need to provide planning consent to build a railway between UK cities... These are 8000 bodies, each with their own priorities, responsibilities and… lawyers. what this process appears to be doing is generating huge legal costs for infrastructure projects. If the government changes something it needs to streamline and centralise the planning process for projects like HS2. Of course this process would need to be changed with the input of lawyers, who would then be reducing income for other lawyers…

 

[Gathursty]

I'm okay with the cost being £100m so long as it is completed on time and without costing much more.

I also hope residents faraway from Buckinghamshire along the HS2 route can take a keen interest in projects to improve Buckinghamshire and object to them repeatedly and frustrate the legal process.

 

[ABB125]

I've been told by a source who was in a position to know the details, that a bat survey found zero bats in the area. None. Yet it estimated that there might be 12 bats, hence the proposed structure.
Whilst I can't verify this information personally, I have no reason to doubt it. It would seem to suggest that something has gone wrong somewhere in the (very long) process of dealing with protected species (as well as local authorities and government bodies who all want their own say...)

 

[gabrielhj07]

I've been told by a source who was in a position to know the details, that a bat survey found zero bats in the area. None. Yet it estimated that there might be 12 bats, hence the proposed structure.
Whilst I can't verify this information personally, I have no reason to doubt it. It would seem to suggest that something has gone wrong somewhere in the (very long) process of dealing with protected species (as well as local authorities and government bodies who all want their own say...)

Couldn't write it!

 

[Cantab26]

I've been told by a source who was in a position to know the details, that a bat survey found zero bats in the area. None. Yet it estimated that there might be 12 bats, hence the proposed structure.
Whilst I can't verify this information personally, I have no reason to doubt it. It would seem to suggest that something has gone wrong somewhere in the (very long) process of dealing with protected species (as well as local authorities and government bodies who all want their own say...)

I am in a position to know the details and the information provided by your source is, shall we say, incomplete.

There is definitely a bat colony in the woods, although the degree to which they actually cross the railway to commute to forage grounds may be greater or lesser.

 

[ic31420]

I think the same organisation manages to somehow find apparently extremely rare newts along just about every one of the many motorway widening projects of recent years, which leads to extensive preliminary work (and project delay) to capture and transport any such, and erect the black plastic sheeting alongside the fence line to separate them further - you may have noticed this when passing such works.

My father was some decades ago civil engineer building some environmental infrastructure at a university with a large "environmental studies" department.

After several weeks of site preparation groundworks commenced, after a couple of days work was stopped when a group of students from the environmental courses filled the tanks of the machines with sugar, cut the hydraulics pipes and staged a sit in. All in the name of saving some hitherto unmentioned rare creature or plant (I forget which).

Father and the other site engineers met with the students and following that the lecturers and uni officials. It was rather dryly suggested that that the rare whatevers where perhaps rarely spotted because they was rarely looked for. This was wryly acknowledged by one lecturer, words where had and some token mitigation was implemented and taken from the contingencies.

I'm probably doing the story a disservice but father remained skeptical of these rare, or rarely looked for types ever since.

 

[Mogster]

Starmer pledges ‘golden era of building’ as he takes aim at environmental regulations

Sir Keir Starmer describes environmental regulations blocking building projects as nonsense

www.independent.co.uk

Starmer now weighs in with some bat shed action.

He highlighted the HS2 project, which was compelled to spend £100 million constructing a tunnel for bats, as an "absurd spectacle" that must end. "This government will not accept this nonsense any more," he said.

 

[chris2]

Personally I’m proud to live in a place where we consider other living things worth protecting and that our laws compel builders to think about this. That’s not ‘nonsense’ at all.

 

[Falcon1200]

Starmer pledges ‘golden era of building’ as he takes aim at environmental regulations

Sir Keir Starmer describes environmental regulations blocking building projects as nonsense

www.independent.co.uk

Starmer now weighs in with some bat shed action.

So presumably the Government has instructed HS2 to abandon building the bat shed and saved us £100 million.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

He highlighted the HS2 project, which was compelled to spend £100 million constructing a tunnel for bats, as an "absurd spectacle" that must end. "This government will not accept this nonsense any more," he said.

I hope so. This has gone far enough. Dare I say it -"bat**** crazy"

 

[Beebman]

The bat shed was mentioned in a discussion about British planning laws on today's 'News Agents' podcast with John Sopel and Emily Maitlis on Global Player:

https://www.globalplayer.com/podcasts/episodes/7DrnzM4/

The main part about the bat shed starts at 00:09:10.

 

[RT4038]

So presumably the Government has instructed HS2 to abandon building the bat shed and saved us £100 million.

I expect the vast bulk of the £100m has already been spent on bat consultants, and bat tunnel consultants....... Maybe save £3m on not actually building it.

 

[Mogster]

It would be interesting to have the £100m itemised.

How much of it is legal costs?

 

[Cantab26]

It would be interesting to have the £100m itemised.

How much of it is legal costs?

If you mean HS2’s legal costs, about £70k or so.

That covers both the application and appeal stages for the Schedule 17 approval.