Border protocols at "Schengen" borders

[The exile]

However, the West Germans would put warning signs just ahead of the border saying "Halt! Hier Grenze!" or a variation. American soldiers were barred from getting closer than 1km from East Germany or Czechoslovakia unless specifically authorised.

That’s true - but that was to warn people they were about to enter territory where the West Germans could do nothing to help them if anything happened.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Nov 2024 ==

Frankly, sorry to say so, but the view from the continent=the other side of the North-Sea from your island since it left EU is that controls to enter there are much as you describe. PLUS that one needs a real passport-book, the trusty ID will not work anymore-probably as its unknown over there.
Controls like that were common when I went to UK/GB in whatever coach (long-dist. bus) after it had just come off the ferry in my younger years. Would probably take even more time as described here.
Having myself entered DE from NL at least 1/week last monthes on my DE-cheap monthly: was only once briefly asked to show some ID. I was wondering as to how young a lot of this GP=GrenzPolizei were looking. And how they could organize such many teams on the dozens of rail+road crossings into DE.

The difference being that we never trumpeted the abolition of border controls and were looked at askance when suggesting that when you have a reasonably controllable water frontier, border checks do actually make some sense.

 

[riceuten]

Frankly, sorry to say so, but the view from the continent=the other side of the North-Sea from your island since it left EU is that controls to enter there are much as you describe. PLUS that one needs a real passport-book, the trusty ID will not work anymore-probably as its unknown over there.

This was mostly the case beforehand, as we were (sadly) never part of the Schengen agreement. I hope this government looks again at ID cards - fairly pathetic to reject them based on tabloid prejudice

Controls like that were common when I went to UK/GB in whatever coach (long-dist. bus) after it had just come off the ferry in my younger years. Would probably take even more time as described here.

Hasn't changed that much since Brexit, though I suspect it will with ETIAS.

Having myself entered DE from NL at least 1/week last month on my DE-cheap monthly: was only once briefly asked to show some ID. I was wondering as to how young a lot of this GP=GrenzPolizei were looking. And how they could organize such many teams on the dozens of rail+road crossings into DE.

All of the controls seem for show, and you can sneak across the borders in many places already

 

[StephenHunter]

Having myself entered DE from NL at least 1/week last monthes on my DE-cheap monthly: was only once briefly asked to show some ID. I was wondering as to how young a lot of this GP=GrenzPolizei

They're called the Bundespolizei or Federal Police. They used to be the Bundesgrenzschutz or Federal Border Guard from 1951 to 2005. I don't know what their German slang name is.

One of them at Munich Airport in 2021 was rather confused as to where I'd entered Schengen because I'd come to Munich via Eurostar and Nightjet.

 

[Ant1966]

Was on a Flix bus from Salzburg to Munich on Saturday (the railway was being dug up). At the AU/DE Border there was a long queue, with cars slowly driving past a broder check. Our bus was waved to one side, all the passengers disembarked and passports checked by armed border police. Felt like a throwback to the 1970s. (Although one other paassenger suggested it could have been related to a recent double murder in AU and a suspect still on the run, who knows?)
Great short trip in general (HZ/SL/AU/DE) although the ECs from Croatia to Villach via Slovenia consisted of only 2 or 3 coaches and seemed to be 30-60 minutes late as a matter of course. Fresh air compartment stock though, so also a throwback to the 1970s, but in a good way!

 

[Belperpete]

Travelled from Austria to Germany last week by train, with a change at Passau. There were small groups of police stationed at intervals along the platform at Passau before the train pulled in. They picked on a couple of people of darker-hued skin waiting to board, and escorted them away. Then, when the already late train arrived, we were held for about half an hour, with the itinerary showing the reason for delay as something like "held by authorities". I don't recall them walking through the train, and my identity wasn't checked.

 

[GingerSte]

Just to add another data point...

I took the Eurostar to Brussels and then ICE from Brussels to Cologne last Friday. (Back in Blighty now.) No checks, other than the usual ticket check.

 

[Capybara]

Just to add another data point...

I took the Eurostar to Brussels and then ICE from Brussels to Cologne last Friday. (Back in Blighty now.) No checks, other than the usual ticket check.

I've just done that. The guard said there would be checks when we got to Aachen and to have our passports ready, but no one came in my coach.

 

[mad_rich]

The Netherlands is introducing border checks from next month.

Minister Faber kondigt grenscontroles aan

Om irreguliere migratie en migrantensmokkel te bestrijden gaat Nederland vanaf 9 december tijdelijk het toezicht op de binnengrenzen herinvoeren. Dit staat in een voorstel van minister Faber van Asiel en Migratie waarmee de ministerraad heeft ingestemd. Hierna heeft de minister de Europese...

www.rijksoverheid.nl

In order to combat irregular migration and migrant smuggling, the Netherlands will temporarily reintroduce internal border controls from 9 December.

 

[rvdborgt]

The Netherlands is introducing border checks from next month.

Immigration has slowed down significantly since last year, but the minister isn't open to reason, so resources will be taken away elsewhere (there's no extra budget), to provide a non-solution to a non-problem.

 

[riceuten]

I've just done that. The guard said there would be checks when we got to Aachen and to have our passports ready, but no one came in my coach.

I suspect they walked down the train and didn't see a person of interest.

 

[StephenHunter]

I suspect they walked down the train and didn't see a person of interest.

Well, Jim Caviezel wasn't on board.

Unfortunately, person of interest tends to be person of colour in these scenarios.

 

[riceuten]

Unfortunately, person of interest tends to be person of colour in these scenarios.

Indeed. On the Luxembourg/Germany border, it appeared mainly to be people from the Maghreb they were interested in.

 

[AdamWW]

Just to add another data point...

I took the Eurostar to Brussels and then ICE from Brussels to Cologne last Friday. (Back in Blighty now.) No checks, other than the usual ticket check.

Nothing evident on the European Sleeper from the Netherlands into Germany a few weeks ago.

 

[riceuten]

I think a potential migrant would be unlikely to take this train

 

[StephenHunter]

I think a potential migrant would be unlikely to take this train

They'd be more likely to go in the other direction.

 

[fandroid]

The difference being that we never trumpeted the abolition of border controls and were looked at askance when suggesting that when you have a reasonably controllable water frontier, border checks do actually make some sense.

I always thought the opposite - that our water frontier should have been used to get the best of both worlds - the free travel of Schengen membership but with the limited entry points allowing subtle but effective policing of entry. Much better value for money than the tedious checking of the whole 99% who don't actually need to be checked.

 

[Cloud Strife]

However, the West Germans would put warning signs just ahead of the border saying "Halt! Hier Grenze!" or a variation. American soldiers were barred from getting closer than 1km from East Germany or Czechoslovakia unless specifically authorised.

This prohibition was mostly about making sure that they didn't accidentally or intentionally stray into East Germany or Czechoslovakia more than anything.

That’s true - but that was to warn people they were about to enter territory where the West Germans could do nothing to help them if anything happened.

Not only that, but it was also required to pass through a checkpoint on exit (and entry) to West Germany. The West German border, contrary to appearances, wasn't 'open', although the West German approach to the border itself was very relaxed as there was little chance of someone making it through to the West German border illegally.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Nov 2024 ==

I always thought the opposite - that our water frontier should have been used to get the best of both worlds - the free travel of Schengen membership but with the limited entry points allowing subtle but effective policing of entry. Much better value for money than the tedious checking of the whole 99% who don't actually need to be checked.

Couldn't agree more. It would have been perfectly possible to agree that British membership would mean visual controls would be maintained at the Schengen border without requiring checks of every single traveller.

 

[Mojo]

I was on a train from Gothenburg to Oslo a few weeks ago and at the first station in Norway the police got on walking up the train. They didn’t seem to be checking passports but there was one (non-European) gentleman who was removed from the train by them.

Not sure on what basis, but I was glad to see the back of him as he was playing videos out loud on his phone and at every station he jumped up to the doors to have a smoke.

 

[riceuten]

They'd be more likely to go in the other direction.

Indeed, it's all about the optics of it - I was reading in a German newspaper that as a consequence of the controls, the police have been able to locate a handful of (domestic) criminals on the run, unpaid fines, and other miscreants, the numbers of illegal migrants and 'sans papiers' located has been negligible.

The idea that they are all heading to the UK - if that's what some people think - is risible

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Nov 2024 ==

Not sure on what basis, but I was glad to see the back of him as he was playing videos out loud on his phone and at every station he jumped up to the doors to have a smoke.

To be fair, he's not alone in doing this domestically or otherwise! I've always thought that if I were not willing to be apprehended, I'd keep as low a profile as possible

 

[The exile]

Not only that, but it was also required to pass through a checkpoint on exit (and entry) to West Germany. The West German border, contrary to appearances, wasn't 'open', although the West German approach to the border itself was very relaxed as there was little chance of someone making it through to the West German border illegally.

Of course any East German crossing the inner German “frontier” to the West wasn’t making an illegal “border” crossing from a West German pov - simply moving from one bit of Germany to another. “Welcome, friend, here’s your DM100” (or whatever the sum was at the time concerned). Presumably there would be some kind of debriefing to ensure they weren’t Stasi.

 

[Krokodil]

I was reading in a German newspaper that as a consequence of the controls, the police have been able to locate a handful of (domestic) criminals on the run, unpaid fines, and other miscreants,

I remember one case where a simple ticket check ended up with BTP lifting a wanted armed robber, who had travelled through quite a lot of non-Schengen borders between Romania and the UK, via Ireland. You'd think that if you were wanted that you'd keep your head down and pay your fare, but criminal types aren't very bright.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Of course any East German crossing the inner German “frontier” to the West wasn’t making an illegal “border” crossing from a West German pov - simply moving from one bit of Germany to another. “Welcome, friend, here’s your DM100” (or whatever the sum was at the time concerned). Presumably there would be some kind of debriefing to ensure they weren’t Stasi.

Yes, they were taken to one of three refugee transit centres first for processing, for instance in West Berlin - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marienfelde_refugee_transit_camp. It was quite common for them to be debriefed by West German intelligence, particularly before the Wall went up, as they were sometimes sent back into East Berlin/East Germany as spies. Afterwards, they tended to be debriefed to try and gain an insight into what was happening in East Germany, as the West's intelligence capabilities were incredibly low.

The Stasi generally didn't need to move like this, as they were able to move into West Berlin quite freely and without the knowledge of the West German intelligence services. They even had a special door in Friedrichstrasse station to avoid the DDR entry/exit controls which led straight into the 'Western' platforms, and it was mostly impossible for West Berlin/West Germany to observe this. Or they could just cross into West Berlin, as the West Berlin police didn't systematically control the border in Berlin, although some West Berlin police/customs checkpoints did exist, such as here:

From what I understand, West Germany and West Berlin didn't systematically impose border controls on travellers between the two on trains and planes, as East Germany generally didn't permit anyone to leave East Germany without them having either visas or a visa-free passport to enter the West.

 

[StephenHunter]

Also, attempting to leave the GDR without permission was a criminal offence; most people got caught even before the first barrier.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

I crossed from W to E Berlin on several occasions on a 'day visa' in the DDR era via the Friedrichstrasse station. One annoying feature was that you had to change a certain sum of DMs for Ostmarks on a 1:1 basis. Coming back in the evening foreign nationals had their own queue which was progressed pretty swiftly. The queue for returning West Germans was usually pretty long and slow, however, with lots of tearful goodbyes from East German relatives.

 

[Capybara]

Well, I literally crossed the Schengen border today, walking across from Germany into Luxembourg. No sign of anyone checking anyone in either direction.

 

[StephenHunter]

Coming back in the evening foreign nationals had their own queue which was progressed pretty swiftly. The queue for returning West Germans was usually pretty long and slow, however, with lots of tearful goodbyes from East German relatives.

That's now a memorial museum called the Palace of Tears.

 

[nwales58]

That's now a memorial museum called the Palace of Tears.

Commonly called the Tränenpalast in DDR days too. The daily Forex requirement meant my family had large numbers of Eterna and Supraphon records.

But we're well off the subject of Edit: Schengen now.

 

[riceuten]

I crossed from W to E Berlin on several occasions on a 'day visa' in the DDR era via the Friedrichstrasse station. One annoying feature was that you had to change a certain sum of DMs for Ostmarks on a 1:1 basis.

25 marks minimum, which was almost impossible to spend. A meal in a restaurant cost around 4 marks. A beer 50 pfennigs.

Coming back in the evening foreign nationals had their own queue which was progressed pretty swiftly. The queue for returning West Germans was usually pretty long and slow, however, with lots of tearful goodbyes from East German relatives.

It was really hard for West Berliners to visit, which perhaps made it worse.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Nov 2024 ==

Well, I literally crossed the Schengen border today, walking across from Germany into Luxembourg. No sign of anyone checking anyone in either direction.

I did mention this above - it’s really easy to find alternative crossing points, and I imagine refugees and people traffickers will be fully acquainted as to where the ‘alternative crossings’ are situated - I know lots of them. From Lux to Trier there is an hourly bus, and more buses from the bus station and airport to different towns in Germany. Remich and Echternach both sit directly on the border - couple of minutes walk away, I cannot imagine the police will staff all of these crossings

 

[Cloud Strife]

It was really hard for West Berliners to visit, which perhaps made it worse.

No, not really. It was only difficult between 1961 and 1971, but after that, they could visit pretty much freely as long as they exchanged money each time. Contrary to what is commonly believed about East Germany, it was quite easy to visit compared to the USSR. The only issue for tourists was the mandatory currency exchange and the high price of accommodation, but other than that, it wasn't a problem. Even the border processes were strict, but the use of the Stasi as passport control officers meant that everything was done correctly and without corruption, unlike on other borders where corruption was widespread.

Of course, you had to abide by whatever rules were in place, such as returning by midnight on day trips. But there is plenty of evidence to suggest that the Stasi officers at passport control didn't bother tourists who had stayed a bit too late. I've read one account of some American tourists who had simply stayed drinking in East Berlin until the early hours, and when they returned to GuST Friedrichstrasse (Checkpoint Charlie), they were simply reminded of the requirement to return back by midnight. In all my research on the topic, I've only found examples of people getting into trouble if they really overstayed their day visa, and even then, the standard was to fine people and nothing more.

Likewise, if you visited on a day trip and decided to stay, East Germany made it very easy to get a visa extension in East Berlin.

I visited the old DDR border crossing in Marienborn this summer and went to the museum, and they said that the Stasi officers didn't play games, and that they were simply trained to be very thorough. For instance, passports were collected and taken to an interior building for inspection, and while they were inspected thoroughly, it wasn't the case that travellers were harassed if everything was in order. Even East Germans with the correct exit visa would be treated in exactly the same way.

I cannot imagine the police will staff all of these crossings

They simply won't and aren't. I've been across the Polish-German border in multiple places over the last few months, and they aren't even bothering to control the Old Town Bridge in Zgorzelec/Gorlitz which has a huge amount of people crossing daily. The motorway and the road crossing are controlled, but from what I've observed, they're mostly checking vans and trucks for people inside, nothing more.

 

[Fragezeichnen]

I did mention this above - it’s really easy to find alternative crossing points, and I imagine refugees and people traffickers will be fully acquainted as to where the ‘alternative crossings’ are situated - I know lots of them. From Lux to Trier there is an hourly bus, and more buses from the bus station and airport to different towns in Germany. Remich and Echternach both sit directly on the border - couple of minutes walk away, I cannot imagine the police will staff all of these crossings

The police presence at the Luxembourg border detects on average one illegal traveller per day. Probably not great value for money.

As you say anyone with a brain cell could find a way around it. This made me laugh:

Large Canvas poster mounted in a trailer parked in a field next to a road

Translated text:
Do you want to travel to Austria illegally?
Use a different border crossing. There they (almost) never check anyone!