Lack of train crew on Great Northern?

[Bikeman78]

SE (as another example) still AIUI pay a booking on fee of £45 and flat rate, which is pathetic, and hasn’t changed for years.

Despite the unattractive overtime offer, they don't seem to struggle with shortage of crew. Unless it slips under the radar.

 

[J-2739]

There’s also a recurring theme of only four carriages instead of eight on the Kings Lynn - Kings Cross services. Not great during commuting hours particularly coupled with cancelled trains.
The last couple of months do seem to be worse than before. I’m now late for work more often than on time. Frankly the commute is miserable.

Four carriages on that route actually happens? That's a very scary thought.

 

[43066]

Despite the unattractive overtime offer, they don't seem to struggle with shortage of crew. Unless it slips under the radar.

True. I think they’re more naturally over crewed due to the intensity of the operation, plus lots of cross coverage between metro depots all located close together.

 

[dk1]

SE (as another example) still AIUI pay a booking on fee of £45 and flat rate, which is pathetic, and hasn’t changed for years.

Sorry if I’m confusing things as we all call things slightly differing names but is that the same as an availability payment for overtime? At my TOC we get this if making ourselves available for a Rest Day Worked or additional Sunday should we get used. It started at at £50 a few years ago but has gradually risen to the current £66 per shift with inflation/pay deals.

 

[43066]

Sorry if I’m confusing things as we all call things slightly differing names but is that the same as an availability payment for overtime? At my TOC we get this if making ourselves available for a Rest Day Worked or additional Sunday should we get used. It started at at £50 a few years ago but has gradually risen to the current £66 per shift with inflation/pay deals.

It sounds the same mate - booking on fee was only payable if you were given a job, not just for being available - but sounds like yours works the same way.

It may have changed at SE, but I seem to remember someone confirming on here that it was still £45 quite recently.

 

[Magdalen Road]

Four carriages on that route actually happens? That's a very scary thought.

Yes, plus sometimes the previous train has been cancelled. So you get 16 carriages‘ worth of passengers in 4.
And if you’re really unlucky, extra stops are added southbound after Cambridge due to the Cambridge - London stoppers having an issue. Honestly it really is miserable commuting on that line. Although today’s trains were on time and a complete set!

 

[Qwerty133]

Traincrew holiday rostering is very strict. Only a set amount are available for each period. It’s not a free for all.

Odd days are treated in a similar way with a maximum number guaranteed each day with any after that reliant on cover being available.

It isn’t any drivers fault that any given TOC is short of staff that therefore lead to cancellations.

But the truth is that rather than a fixed X number people being allowed off per week it would make more sense to allow different amounts of leave during different weeks (with at least some leave being allocated by the TOC to ensure leave is maximised during periods that it causes the least disruption) depending on various factors that impact both how many staff are likely to be required on a given week and the number of people likely to be available for overtime (so for instance much less leave should be available during the school summer holidays but more leave should be enforced during winter term time weeks where there is often a waiting list for overtime).

 

[43066]

But the truth is that rather than a fixed X number people being allowed off per week it would make more sense to allow different amounts of leave during different weeks (with at least some leave being allocated by the TOC to ensure leave is maximised during periods that it causes the least disruption) depending on various factors that impact both how many staff are likely to be required on a given week and the number of people likely to be available for overtime (so for instance much less leave should be available during the school summer holidays but more leave should be enforced during winter term time weeks where there is often a waiting list for overtime).

Well, no. The timetable doesn’t vary throughout the year, so neither should the number of staff needed to man it.

It’s already difficult for traincrew to get leave when they need it, as opposed to when they’re allocated it, so there’s no way forcing more leave during unpopular periods would be acceptable to the unions. It already happens naturally to some extent, in any case, due to the first come first served nature of the leave; it’ll be far easier to get a day off at short notice in November than it will be in August.

 

[dk1]

But the truth is that rather than a fixed X number people being allowed off per week it would make more sense to allow different amounts of leave during different weeks (with at least some leave being allocated by the TOC to ensure leave is maximised during periods that it causes the least disruption) depending on various factors that impact both how many staff are likely to be required on a given week and the number of people likely to be available for overtime (so for instance much less leave should be available during the school summer holidays but more leave should be enforced during winter term time weeks where there is often a waiting list for overtime).

But then you could end up with too many staff off at other times and why should they be penalised at taking time off with their children during school holidays? On most routes the timetable is exactly the same. The holiday roster works fine as it is at my TOC.

 

[whoosh]

It varies by TOC. Where I am rest day work is paid at time and a half (150%), which is fairly lucrative on a long shift. Others less generous. GN I believe pay a generous uplift for Sundays, but much less so on other days of the week (flat time or a small book on fee @whoosh may be able to confirm), hence many will feel it isn’t worth it.

GN / Thameslink is a 15% enhancement to hours worked + a £50 fee for the day, for Rest Day Work. Minimum payment is 8 hours.

But the truth is that rather than a fixed X number people being allowed off per week it would make more sense to allow different amounts of leave during different weeks (with at least some leave being allocated by the TOC to ensure leave is maximised during periods that it causes the least disruption) depending on various factors that impact both how many staff are likely to be required on a given week and the number of people likely to be available for overtime (so for instance much less leave should be available during the school summer holidays but more leave should be enforced during winter term time weeks where there is often a waiting list for overtime).

The vast majority of our annual leave is dictated to us.

 

[12LDA28C]

I'm assuming that TOC overtime is a similar 50% uplift and pensions are a similar 8%.

Now if TOCs aren't paying time-and-a-half for overtime, and offer 50% of the base salary in pensions, that's different. Seems a crazy deal to me.

If instead it's a scheduling problem and they have enough hours each year worked without overtime, then they need to fix the scheduling. Other industries that are far more important manage this.

Some TOCs only pay overtime and RDW at standard hourly rate, it varies greatly by employer.

 

[riceuten]

I don’t follow this point. A lot of industries rely on overtime and suffer from staff shortages. Their “importance” is a value judgment, and has nothing to do with it.

Except, in this case, the staff shortages are a "value judgement" by the TOC unwilling to resource sufficient drivers to provide a public service

 

[Bald Rick]

Except, in this case, the staff shortages are a "value judgement" by the TOC unwilling to resource sufficient drivers to provide a public service

It’s much more complex than that. Many TOCs, including those seeing high levels of cancellations, now have more drivers than they have ever had.

 

[43066]

I don’t follow this point. A lot of industries rely on overtime and suffer from staff shortages. Their “importance” is a value judgment, and has nothing to do with it.

Except, in this case, the staff shortages are a "value judgement" by the TOC unwilling to resource sufficient drivers to provide a public service

I was referring there to the odd statement in the post I quoted that “more important industries manage it.” It sounded like a lead into the tedious suggestion often seen on here (and only seen on here!) that the railway is unimportant, or to pointless comparisons with other industries.

It’s much more complex than that. Many TOCs, including those seeing high levels of cancellations, now have more drivers than they have ever had.

Not sure what that really tells us when they’ve probably had too few drivers since BR days or earlier. More than they’ve ever had doesn’t necessarily mean enough!

I can remember reading about Thameslink driver shortages back in the mid noughties, so it’s hardly a new issue. Plus the other known issues: a rapidly ageing workforce, higher sickness (reflecting the national trend since Covid), fewer doing overtime now due to the back pay etc.

 

[SWT_USER]

It’s much more complex than that. Many TOCs, including those seeing high levels of cancellations, now have more drivers than they have ever had.

I guess people don't often see much beyond their local TOC but that is completely at odds with my experience of SWR, who are running fewer services with shorter trains but still don't have enough staff.

Do GN have issues with drivers leaving for more money at LNER or Greater Anglia?

 

[43066]

Do GN have issues with drivers leaving for more money at LNER or Greater Anglia?

GN pay more than GA who are about the lowest these days, along with SE.

 

[dk1]

GN pay more than GA who are about the lowest these days, along with SE.

Exactly and why GAs training schools are always kept busy

 

[Bald Rick]

Not sure what that really tells us when they’ve probably had too few drivers since BR days or earlier. More than they’ve ever had doesn’t necessarily mean enough!

I can remember reading about Thameslink driver shortages back in the mid noughties, so it’s hardly a new issue. Plus the other known issues: a rapidly ageing workforce, higher sickness (reflecting the national trend since Covid), fewer doing overtime now due to the back pay etc.

Very broadly, the assumptions about absence rates, retirement dates, and the willingness to work overtime / rest days etc. which have held for decades, have all changed quite suddenly; much more suddenly than training can accommodate.

I guess people don't often see much beyond their local TOC but that is completely at odds with my experience of SWR, who are running fewer services with shorter trains but still don't have enough staff.

They have enough staff. What they don’t have is enough staff availability; it’s a crucial difference. They also have a massive training programme in hand for the 701s.

And shirter trains makes no difference on the resource requirement.

 

[riceuten]

It’s much more complex than that. Many TOCs, including those seeing high levels of cancellations, now have more drivers than they have ever had.

Which presumably explains why they no longer have cancellations.

Oh, hang on…

 

[43066]

Very broadly, the assumptions about absence rates, retirement dates, and the willingness to work overtime / rest days etc. which have held for decades, have all changed quite suddenly; much more suddenly than training can accommodate.

Have they held for decades? As I say, I remember Thameslink regularly suffering severe shortages twenty plus years ago. That was long before I joined the railway, but I remember the newspaper headlines, so it must have been fairly bad to register with me!

The big difference recently has probably been the fallout from Covid and the issues I mentioned above - is there any evidence the changes on the railway are different to the wider workforce?

What do you think is causing the ongoing issues?

 

[Bald Rick]

As I say, I remember Thameslink regularly suffering severe shortages twenty plus years ago. That was long before I joined the railway, but I remember the newspaper headlines, so it must have been fairly bad to register with me!

That was a Rest Day ban.

is there any evidence the changes on the railway are different to the wider workforce?

Yes, there seems to be, for certain grades in certain locations. That needs investigation.

What do you think is causing the ongoing issues?

I’ve summarised it above - higher rates of absence, earlier retirements, and less willingness to work extra shifts / overtime is much of it. And in my personal view the latter two are in part a result of the salary levels compared to history for drivers, with fewer people needing to work extra hours, or work right up to (or beyond ) pension date to achieve a standard of living they are content with.

There’s also a lot in terms and conditions / local agreements but let‘s not go into that here, especially as they haven’t really changed much in the last few years for obvious reasons.

 

[43066]

That was a Rest Day ban.

Really? It seemed to go on for a long time. It was also a sign that the TOC still weren’t employing enough crew to run the service!

Yes, there seems to be, for certain grades in certain locations. That needs investigation.

Is there evidence of that in public? I’m aware that this has been the case in the workforce in general.

I’ve summarised it above - higher rates of absence, earlier retirements, and less willingness to work extra shifts / overtime is much of it. And in my personal view the latter two are in part a result of the salary levels compared to history for drivers, with fewer people needing to work extra hours, or work right up to (or beyond ) pension date to achieve a standard of living they are content with.

But the points I’ve made also explain current higher rates of absence, potentially, in line with what we are seeing elsewhere.

I’m not convinced the “drivers’ salaries has risen” argument explains it; for one thing, you’ve yourself mentioned the current metrics have worked for years, yet drivers’ pay hasn’t gone up overnight. It’s gradually increased over the last few decades. Indeed most drivers are paid less in real terms now than in 2018/19, when there were none of these issues.

For another, house prices, mortgage increases, cost of living recently etc. have outstripped even driver earnings increases by a healthy margin. Yes there’s a cohort who’ve paid their mortgages off and can retire early, but there’s also an increasingly significant number with young families who are finding things challenging.

I personally suspect the following: a lack of goodwill following the recent dispute, and vilification of the grade and industry; worse passenger behaviour encountered at work, and (for those who can afford it) a realisation that life is better spent not at work - even if that means less money.

There’s also a lot in terms and conditions / local agreements but let‘s not go into that here, especially as they haven’t really changed much in the last few years for obvious reasons.

But those agreements also aren’t recent - exactly as you say - so they also can’t account for the change.

 

[bramling]

It’s much more complex than that. Many TOCs, including those seeing high levels of cancellations, now have more drivers than they have ever had.

So what’s going on? Are we saying that there are, on paper, sufficient drivers, but for whatever reason this isn’t translating into productive work?

I’d make half a guess that this is at least partly explained by the whole malaise that started during Covid. A lot seems to trace back to that Covid response having been allowed to drift for way too long, with an “end point” never having been declared even to this day.

 

[Bald Rick]

but drivers pay hasn’t gone up overnight.

It has, very recently, as your bank account no doubt testifies! (unless youve already spent it )

Indeed most drivers are paid less in real terms now than in 2018/19, when there were none of these issues.

There were these issues in 2018/19, in spades. But, another factor is that tax thresholds haven’t risen since then, particularly the £100k one…

Yes there’s a cohort who’ve paid their mortgages off etc.

Indeed there is, and as you say in an earlier post - the ageing workforce means this is a larger proportion than it was even a few years ago.

But those agreements also aren’t recent - exactly as you say - so they also can’t account for the change.

Not directly (with a couple of recent exceptions), but the agreements make it more difficult to cover services in a tight resource situation than otherwise.

 

[43066]

It has, very revently, as yiur bank account testifies! (unless youve already spent it )

Ha - I’ve just booked onto the new UK orient express .

More seriously - backpay will be a factor for a while - but fewer people were doing overtime even before the dispute was settled, and even outside of RDW bans - I distinctly remember us discussing it!

There were these issues in 2018/19, in spades. But, another favtor is that tax thresholds haven’t risen since then, particualrly the £100k one…

Indeed there is, and as you say in an earlier post - the ageing workforce means this is a larger proportion than it was even a few years ago.

Agree with both of these - albeit I’d suggest there are guys in their thirties and forties potentially hungrier for overtime than any previous generation, who will increasingly offset the older group.

Not directly (witha coulle of recent exceptions), but the agreements make it more difficukt to cover services in a tight resource situation than otherwise.

Well yes, that’s the whole point of agreements! We don’t want our work life balance (what little of it train drivers retain) shredded just because the TOCs’ assumptions haven’t worked and they can’t cover the work. The solution is to employ enough of us, or incentivise people properly to come in for overtime. Pay £1-2k per shift and I guarantee you will get takers - no different to other industries (the NHS for one).

 

[bramling]

Ha - I’ve just booked onto the new UK orient express .

More seriously - backpay will be a factor for a while - but fewer people were doing overtime even before the dispute was settled, and even outside of RDW bans - I distinctly remember us discussing it!





Agree with both of these - albeit I’d suggest there are guys in their thirties and forties potentially hungrier for overtime than any previous generation, who will increasingly offset the older group.

If we look at my place, which contains a similar cross-section, there’s a sharp divide. The younger end of the spectrum are literally overtime sharks, whilst older generally don’t touch it with a barge pole. As ever I seem to be the exception in that I’ve never touched it.

What we then seem to see is many of the older ones now have rather poor attendance, which naturally results in increased amounts of OT being available. I can’t help but make the observation that the ones with the aforementioned poor attendance also very much correlate with those who seemed to get Covid rather more often than everyone else, and always seemed to get it at Christmas / Easter / half term (etc). There’s also some OT from vacancies either not being filled at all, or seeming to take a long time to be filled.

Whilst the younger ones are hungry for OT, there comes a point where burn-out happens and they physically can’t do the levels of OT on top of their normal hours, so guess what they blow out of their normal shifts, and come in for the OT ones.

Meanwhile anyone else is also hacked off at being caught in the crossfire of all this, so doesn’t go out of their way to be helpful.

So what we get is all these factors combining to give perennially poor coverage.

Sound familiar to anyone?

 

[43066]

If we look at my place, which contains a similar cross-section, there’s a sharp divide. The younger end of the spectrum are literally overtime sharks, whilst older generally don’t touch it with a barge pole. As ever I seem to be the exception in that I’ve never touched it.

What we then seem to see is many of the older ones now have rather poor attendance, which naturally results in increased amounts of OT being available. I can’t help but make the observation that the ones with the aforementioned poor attendance also very much correlate with those who seemed to get Covid rather more often than everyone else, and always seemed to get it at Christmas / Easter / half term (etc). There’s also some OT from vacancies either not being filled at all, or seeming to take a long time to be filled.

Whilst the younger ones are hungry for OT, there comes a point where burn-out happens and they physically can’t do the levels of OT on top of their normal hours, so guess what they blow out of their normal shifts, and come in for the OT ones.

Meanwhile anyone else is also hacked off at being caught in the crossfire of all this, so doesn’t go out of their way to be helpful.

So what we get is all these factors combining to give perennially poor coverage.

Sound familiar to anyone?

A very accurate summary, I’d say.

Also there's a need to consider the nature of the job. To take a typical example of someone who is older, overweight-to-obese as many in the industry are, and suffers back issues: they will likely need to be signed off driving for a period - potentially several months - because they’re incapable of getting into and out of the cab and performing the duties required, including climbing down onto the ballast if necessary. If that same person did an office job they wouldn’t show up in the stats because they could struggle in, work from home etc.

Equally, due to the safety critical nature of the role, if someone is put onto a new medication, occupational heath will want them to have a period off track before signing them off as safe to drive.

Hence minor ailments can have a more significant effect on traincrew absence than they might in other industries.

 

[bramling]

A very accurate summary, I’d say.

Also there's a need to consider the nature of the job. To take a typical example of someone who is older, overweight-to-obese as many in the industry are, and suffers back issues: they will likely need to be signed off driving for a period because they’re incapable of getting into and out of the cab and performing the duties required, including climbing down onto the ballast if necessary. If that same person did an office job they wouldn’t show up in the stats because they could struggle in, work from home etc.

Equally, due to the safety critical nature of the role, if someone is put onto a new medication, occupational heath will want them to have a period off track before signing them off as safe to drive.

Hence minor ailments can have a more significant effect on traincrew absence than they might in other industries.

Ah yes I can think of examples of all this too. And what better way to put on a ton of weight than sitting at home shielding and stuffing the face with jelly babies, or slurping beer whilst self-isolating with so-called Covid.

I wonder if we’re also reaching the point where a certain generation who have never really looked after their health particularly well are now all getting to the point where they are starting to suffer consequences from all this. So perhaps some of this would have happened even without Covid, albeit that has probably turbocharged things.

 

[Magdalia]

What we then seem to see is many of the older ones now have rather poor attendance

To take a typical example of someone who is older, overweight-to-obese as many in the industry are, and suffers back issues: they will likely need to be signed off driving for a period - potentially several months - because they’re incapable of getting into and out of the cab and performing the duties required, including climbing down onto the ballast if necessary. If that same person did an office job they wouldn’t show up in the stats because they could struggle in, work from home etc.

An important factor is much longer NHS waiting lists, with people off work waiting for the NHS to treat them.

Although driving trains involves a lot of sitting down, it also involves a lot of walking. A driver changing ends on 12 car trains 4 times per shift will be walking 1km before adding in the walks at start and end of shift. Anyone overweight and with dodgy knees or hips is going to struggle with that.

The younger end of the spectrum are literally overtime sharks, whilst older generally don’t touch it with a barge pole.

Another aspect not mentioned is that, while the older generation if drivers is overwhelmingly men, the younger generation of drivers include a lot more women. There may be some "overtime sharks" in the younger generation, but there are possibly fewer of them now than the younger generation of, say, 20 years ago?

 

[dk1]

An important factor is much longer NHS waiting lists, with people off work waiting for the NHS to treat them.

Although driving trains involves a lot of sitting down, it also involves a lot of walking. A driver changing ends on 12 car trains 4 times per shift will be walking 1km before adding in the walks at start and end of shift. Anyone overweight and with dodgy knees or hips is going to struggle with that.

Add to that climbing up/down and walking on ballast. The latter is something that gets asked on every work medical now.