Southern Railway Van C (and other SR 4-wheel vans)

[alexl92]

Hi,
just wondered if anyone could educate me about the usage and role of the Southern 4-wheel Passenger Brake C vans.

From what I can tell, this is effectively a PMV with a guards compartment fitted. Presumably this means it can perform the role of a brake van, and I’m sure I’ve read in the past they were generally used in passenger formations, but I’m not sure what the advantage of using all of these over the brake compartment in a normal bogie coach would be. kind of formations did they generally get used in?

Also, I think the SR had a few types of 4-wheel parcel/luggage van - Parkside make 2 or 3 variants - what were these and what were they used for? And did they generally feature in mixed freight, passenger rakes or just rakes of parcel vans?

Thanks!

 

[Gloster]

A quick look at Southern Railway Passenger Vans (Gould, Oakwood, 1992) confirms my understanding that they were primarily intended for use in parcels, milk, news and similar trains. They could appear in passenger workings, but not so often due to their lack of gangways. From around they 1969 became pure (although filthy) parcels vans: I can remember loading one in 1978 or 1979 that still had the guards compartment, although that was unusable. They basically provided the guards accommodation for trains of NPCCS (Non-Passenger Carrying Coaching Stock).

The main types of SR-built four-wheel vans were CCT, that had end doors, and PMV, that had no end doors; there were also three specials for the Night Ferry. They could appear in all types of trains: parcels, milk, news, etc, passenger workings (several were fitted to work with push-pull sets), or in general goods trains.

CCT - Covered Carriage Truck, PMV - Parcels & Miscellaneous Van.

 

[30907]

A quick look at Southern Railway Passenger Vans (Gould, Oakwood, 1992) confirms my understanding that they were primarily intended for use in parcels, milk, news and similar trains. They could appear in passenger workings, but not so often due to their lack of gangways. From around they 1969 became pure (although filthy) parcels vans: I can remember loading one in 1978 or 1979 that still had the guards compartment, although that was unusable. They basically provided the guards accommodation for trains of NPCCS (Non-Passenger Carrying Coaching Stock).

The main types of SR-built four-wheel vans were CCT, that had end doors, and PMV, that had no end doors; there were also three specials for the Night Ferry. They could appear in all types of trains: parcels, milk, news, etc, passenger workings (several were fitted to work with push-pull sets), or in general goods trains.

CCT - Covered Carriage Truck, PMV - Parcels & Miscellaneous Van.

For info: Van C was BY under BR; Van B (bogie) would be BG and a 6-wheeler BZ - not sure the SR had any!

Sorry, BG would have a Gangway (corridor connection) unlike a B (still a Van B in a SR Carriage Workings of 1960!).

 

[alexl92]

A quick look at Southern Railway Passenger Vans (Gould, Oakwood, 1992) confirms my understanding that they were primarily intended for use in parcels, milk, news and similar trains. They could appear in passenger workings, but not so often due to their lack of gangways. From around they 1969 became pure (although filthy) parcels vans: I can remember loading one in 1978 or 1979 that still had the guards compartment, although that was unusable. They basically provided the guards accommodation for trains of NPCCS (Non-Passenger Carrying Coaching Stock).

The main types of SR-built four-wheel vans were CCT, that had end doors, and PMV, that had no end doors; there were also three specials for the Night Ferry. They could appear in all types of trains: parcels, milk, news, etc, passenger workings (several were fitted to work with push-pull sets), or in general goods trains.

CCT - Covered Carriage Truck, PMV - Parcels & Miscellaneous Van.

Thank you. So would a Van C stand in for a Brake Van on parcels and Milk traffic in effect?

For info: Van C was BY under BR; Van B (bogie) would be BG and a 6-wheeler BZ - not sure the SR had any!

Ah - I have seen the BY designation used before! Makes sense.

 

[Gloster]

Thank you. So would a Van C stand in for a Brake Van on parcels and Milk traffic in effect?

It would depend on the workings. A parcels or similar train which didn‘t include any passenger coaches would normally include a four-wheel or bogie van, but might even have a normal goods brake van on occasions. Goods brake vans were most likely to appear on workings of milk tanks where the parcel type ones’ floor space was not needed, although if milk cans were carried, there would have to be a parcels-type van.

It is a complicated story, but the aim was to get the best utilisation possible. There is no point in having a Van C wandering about on a diagram that has absolutely no need for van floor space at any time, but there can be occasions where having only part of a diagram requiring the van’s floor space brings an overall reduction in the number of duties needed.

 

[30907]

Thank you. So would a Van C stand in for a Brake Van on parcels and Milk traffic in effect?

Yes, potentially.

I've had a skim of the 1960 Carriage Workings for the SW (West of Basingstoke only).

BYs (Vans C) are relatively rare but at least half are on workings where there is no other brake vehicle, and there is even a reference to a Stove BY in a freight - which would have been important to a guard if the van couldn't be heated from the engine
Vans B, by contrast, seem much more common.

PS internet sources say that Stove vans had an orange panel and were not allowed off the SR - given the way ordinary CCT/GUVs could be found anywhere between Wick and Penzance that's understandable!

 

[Gloster]

According to Gould (see above) the stove fitted vans 400-419 were not to work off the Southern. He says they had the lower part of the guards door and the top six planks of the end section painted orange.

He includes a diagram from 1960 that had vans 400 and 401 working in early morning freights from Exeter and Plymouth. I suspect that this was for the distribution of regional newspapers and, possibly, mail.

 

[30907]

He includes a diagram from 1960 that had vans 400 and 401 working in early morning freights from Exeter and Plymouth. I suspect that this was for the distribution of regional newspapers and, possibly, mail.

One of each, in fact! The down working connected with the WR Postal, the Up was News ex Plymouth.

 

[Gloster]

The new book on milk traffic (Milk on the Rails, Matthew Pinto, Wild Swan) fell through my letter box today and it does mention that the SR often used Van C on these trains. However, a run through the photos suggests that they were most likely to appear on feeder workings that ran only or primarily for milk traffic.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Hi,
just wondered if anyone could educate me about the usage and role of the Southern 4-wheel Passenger Brake C vans.

A couple of pages from the 1963 Waterloo Carriage Working Notice, not a full picture obviously, but only a small number of BY (C) vans listed. One on the 1.15 am departure (MX days) bound for Weymouth (Newspapers), and three on the 4.10 am departure (MX again), one for Camberley and two for Hounslow. If I can find any more of interest from my limited collection of CWN's I will return!

 

[4COR]

According to Gould (see above) the stove fitted vans 400-419 were not to work off the Southern. He says they had the lower part of the guards door and the top six planks of the end section painted orange.

I believe in BR days, the orange panels and door became yellow (though I do recall seeing somewhere about a blue livery version with orange panels). Here's a shot of one on Flickr - note they sometimes escaped the SR, this one is at Tebay(!).

https://flic.kr/p/bro5jy

 

[bishdunster]

The BY at Swanage also had a heavy steel safe fitted !

 

[Gloster]

The BY at Swanage also had a heavy steel safe fitted !

Safe fitted vans 10-14 were built in 1941.

 

[4COR]

Safe fitted vans 10-14 were built in 1941.

And had red door/corners. Numbers in white in the corners.