Court paperwork issued. Help, I’m scared!

[momo18]

As they wrote to you on 13 and 30 September asking for comments, is there another response you sent?

Or as they both say they are an initial contact letter, did you perhaps ignore one?

It may be helpful if you can give dates for the correspondence in images where dates aren't visible.


In your complaint you wrote,

"As the member of staff was just intent on completing a report rather than trying to resolve the situation I proceeded to buy a ticket... from the machine at Hebden Bridge...but this still wasn’t acceptable. We were growing increasingly more frustrated & upset at how we were being treated. I admit I did swear a few times out of upset & frustration"

Are you saying that you swore just after he refused to accept that the ticket you'd just bought solved the problem?

It isn't clear why you wrote "this still wasn’t acceptable", given that he had already made clear buying another ticket from him wasn't acceptable.


Are you sure he heard your apology clearly enough?

In the complaint you wrote,

"I...went back to apologise after reflection"

which doesn't sound immediate.


"There was a lady with a little boy who was also travelling on our train, who as a witness, feels the same way and was reduced to tears outside the station following similar treatment she received."

Do you mean the lady is contactable and prepared to be a witness for you?


What you can do now is draft two things:

"Why I thought I could buy on the train (despite notices at stations saying I couldn't?)"

and

"Why I swore".

No there was no other letter. It took a while for the letter to come so I responded within a couple of days of that initial letter and got a confirmation email straight away. I then got another letter saying they hadn’t received anything so I can only assume it’s a cross over while my original was being processed in the delay.

I swore while I was at the machine buying a ticket then as I walked off. In my head I was buying a ticket for the same train that I could have bought originally at my departing station so I couldn’t see a difference. I know now obviously that there is one and having spoke with customer service I know I can select a train and then travel on a different one if I select an anytime day return.

The apology wasn’t in seconds but I was outside talking to my husband as I was getting upset for maybe a minute or 2 max then went back in. He definitely heard me try to apologise but didn’t accept it. I can’t do anything about that now.

The lady isn’t sure that she wants to be involved. She was dealing with a different inspector who reduced her to tears. She hasn’t received anything from northern so I think she’s worried about getting involved and there being any repercussions for her, which I totally understand.

Is there merit in responding to the latest email then with a letter covering those two areas? And a sincere apology? Is it not too late?
Losing sleep and not eating from the worry over this

 

[some bloke]

It isn't too late to keep trying. If persistent emails don't work, you can go to the court building early, ask staff where the prosecutor is and try again in person.

Please put a draft on here for comment.

On the plus side, you can be more polite and apologetic than you've been so far. The tone of your chasing emails may have been seen as a bit demanding or brusque.

I swore while I was at the machine buying a ticket then as I walked off. In my head I was buying a ticket for the same train that I could have bought originally at my departing station so I couldn’t see a difference.

My point was that he'd already made clear that buying from him wasn't an acceptable solution. So it doesn't seem reasonable for you to expect him to think buying from a machine was.

 

[momo18]

It isn't too late to keep trying. If persistent emails don't work, you can go to the court building early, ask staff where the prosecutor is and try again in person.

Please put drafts on here for comment.

On the plus side, you can be more polite and apologetic than you've been so far. The tone of your chasing emails may have been seen as a bit demanding or brusque.


My point was that he'd already made clear that buying from him wasn't an acceptable solution. So it doesn't seem reasonable for you to expect him to think buying from a machine was.

Yes it is possible that my chasing emails haven’t been interpreted as I had intended. I’ve been really anxious to sort it and it has possibly come across the wrong way. Problem with emails I guess isn’t it! It’s been hanging over me for a couple of months and I was hoping it had all been resolved by now.

I accept your last point. I suppose in my upset I wasn’t thinking straight and my reasoning was off. Heat of the moment and all. Thanks for your advice so far.

Is it worth me responding to the last email they sent me about court papers being sent out?

 

[TheJester]

When in a hole stop digging.

The tone of your emails have possibly not helped your situation.

 

[momo18]

When in a hole stop digging.

The tone of your emails have possibly not helped your situation.

I agree reading them back. I’ve been in such an anxious state since the letter they’ve definitely not come across as intended

 

[some bloke]

Is it worth me responding to the last email they sent me about court papers being sent out?

Yes - please put a draft on here for people to comment.

 

[momo18]

I’m not sure if this is ok or not, any suggestions warmly welcomed. I don’t know if I need to disclose that I have diagnosed stress and anxiety which possibly explains my level of anxiety post event.

Hello,

Many thanks for the email confirmation. I had been extremely anxious since the initial receipt of the letter from yourselves that I hadn’t heard anything.

I would be grateful if this email could be passed onto the prosecution team please if possible.

I would also like to take this opportunity again to reiterate that I accept I did not have a ticket at the time of travel and have since received very helpful information from one of your customer service advisors (Leonard) to ensure that I have the correct ticket for travel in future and how to navigate the machine should I experience the same difficulty. I was anxious from the beginning that I couldn’t buy ticket for the correct train and incorrectly assumed that I would be able to buy from the conductor as I had previously. I have now also registered on the Northern Rail app to ensure that this genuine mistake doesn’t occur again in the future.

As I mentioned in my initial correspondence after the incident, I returned and apologised to the staff member in question, but also want to take the chance to sincerely apologise in writing to the staff member for my use of bad language on the day. I was upset and reacted inappropriately. It was disrespectful and I completely agree that no one should be disrespected, abused or threatened whilst at work, work should be a safe space for anyone. I also appreciate the work that all train staff conduct on a daily basis to keep us commuters safe and check that everyone has the right tickets to travel on. I appreciate how much fare dodging costs train operators every day so the job is invaluable. For my words, I am truly sorry. I can guarantee that I have learnt a hard lesson from this and this will never happen again in the future.

I have been cooperative with the investigation at every stage and am anxious and willing to seek a resolution if Northern would graciously consider offering a settlement.

Yours sincerely

 

[AlterEgo]

I’m not sure if this is ok or not, any suggestions warmly welcomed. I don’t know if I need to disclose that I have diagnosed stress and anxiety which possibly explains my level of anxiety post event.

Hello,

Many thanks for the email confirmation.

I have been extremely anxious since the initial receipt of the letter from yourselves that I hadn’t heard anything.

I would also like to take this opportunity again to reiterate that I accept I did not have a ticket at the time of travel and have since received very helpful information from one of your customer service advisors to ensure that I have the correct ticket for travel in future and how to navigate the machine should I experience the same difficulty.

As I mentioned in my initial correspondence after the incident, I returned and apologised to the staff member in question, but also want to take the chance to sincerely apologise to Northern for the use of my language on the day. I was upset and reacted badly. I am disappointed in my reaction and behaviour, it wasn’t acceptable and I will endeavour to ensure this doesn’t happen again.

I have been cooperative with the investigation at every stage and am anxious and willing to seek a resolution if Northern would graciously consider offering a settlement.

Yours sincerely

That's alright, but you need to expand on the abusive language bit.

It isn't Northern that needs an apology; it's the member of staff. You should mention something about how appreciate this will affect people in their workplace and the effect on the staff member involved. You need to close with something stronger than what in practice amounts to "I will try to ensure I don't say f**k you to front line staff". You should state in unequivocal terms you will not do it again.

 

[momo18]

That's alright, but you need to expand on the abusive language bit.

It isn't Northern that needs an apology; it's the member of staff. You should mention something about how appreciate this will affect people in their workplace and the effect on the staff member involved. You need to close with something stronger than what in practice amounts to "I will try to ensure I don't say f**k you to front line staff". You should state in unequivocal terms you will not do it again.

Yep of course. I’m going to try have a good sleep and start fresh in the morning so will edit! Thanks for everyone’s help honestly so far!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Nov 2024 ==

That's alright, but you need to expand on the abusive language bit.

It isn't Northern that needs an apology; it's the member of staff. You should mention something about how appreciate this will affect people in their workplace and the effect on the staff member involved. You need to close with something stronger than what in practice amounts to "I will try to ensure I don't say f**k you to front line staff". You should state in unequivocal terms you will not do it again.

Good morning! Edited after a slightly better nights sleep

 

[AlterEgo]

That looks fine, but I would email the prosecutions team directly instead of asking uninterested customer relations staff to do it for you ; use drpu@northernrailway.co.uk

 

[momo18]

That looks fine, but I would email the prosecutions team directly instead of asking uninterested customer relations staff to do it for you ; use drpu@northernrailway.co.uk

Perfect, thank you! I was just going to reply to the last email I received from them when they said about sending court paperwork. That’s the same email as the one you mentioned. Thank you so much for your advice, genuinely.

 

[MotCO]

I have now also registered on the Northern Rail app to ensure that this genuine mistake doesn’t occur again in the future.

I've not used the Northern app, but I don't understand how registering or the app helps ensure you don't make the same mistake again. Maybe this needs expanding upon?

 

[momo18]

I've not used the Northern app, but I don't understand how registering or the app helps ensure you don't make the same mistake again. Maybe this needs expanding upon?

As I will endeavour to buy well ahead of time to ensure the train I want is available to buy for. Should I pop that in too?
I’ve never had an issue in the 15 years I’ve lived here doing it at the station when I’ve got there until this day

 

[MotCO]

As I will endeavour to buy well ahead of time to ensure the train I want is available to buy for. Should I pop that in too?
I’ve never had an issue in the 15 years I’ve lived here doing it at the station when I’ve got there until this day

You may want to say something like, " Now I've registered for the app, I can now buy tickets more easily in advance so that I can be sure of having the correct ticket before I board a train".

 

[momo18]

You may want to say something like, " Now I've registered for the app, I can now buy tickets more easily in advance so that I can be sure of having the correct ticket before I board a train".

Yes great suggestion, thank you!

I have now also registered on the Northern Rail app so I can purchase tickets more easily in advance in assurance that I have the correct ticket before boarding a train and ensure that this genuine mistake doesn’t occur again in the future.

@MotCO I also had a Quick Look at some of your comments on other threads and saw some good examples of offering to pay costs etc (see attached screenshot) is something like this also worth tagging on the end?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

This isn't relevant to the court case, but the Anytime Day Return you can buy at Sowerby Bridge ATM, or on an app, at £4.50 is valid on any train, so it doesn't matter which one you choose.
Buying that would have saved all the complications at Hebden Bridge.

 

[momo18]

This isn't relevant to the court case, but the Anytime Day Return you can buy at Sowerby Bridge ATM, or on an app, at £4.50 is valid on any train, so it doesn't matter which one you choose.
Buying that would have saved all the complications at Hebden Bridge.

That is what I was trying to select and the machine wouldn’t let me proceed without selecting an outbound train and mine wasn’t showing so I thought I would be doing the wrong thing picking a train I wouldn’t be travelling on. I now know after speaking to their advisors that exactly what you said is the case so I will be doing that going forward
Thank you for the information. I wouldn’t have known this prior to this incident. I’m kicking myself every day for not just selecting it anyway

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Nov 2024 ==


****************************

Updated draft response to Northern below…. Keen to get this sent off to them now
Thanks to everyone for their input and advice. Hopefully this incorporates feedback that everyone has given!

Hello,

Many thanks for the email confirmation. I have been extremely anxious since the initial receipt of the letter from yourselves that I hadn’t heard anything.

I would also like to take this opportunity again to reiterate that I accept I did not have a ticket at the time of travel and have since received very helpful information from one of your customer service advisors (Leonard) to ensure that I have the correct ticket for travel in future and how to navigate the machine should I experience the same difficulty. I was anxious from the beginning that I couldn’t buy ticket for the correct train and incorrectly assumed that I would be able to buy from the conductor as I had previously. I have now also registered on the Northern Rail app so I can purchase tickets more easily in advance in assurance that I have the correct ticket before boarding a train and ensure that this genuine mistake doesn’t occur again in the future.

As I mentioned in my initial correspondence after the incident, I returned and apologised to the staff member in question, but also want to take the chance to sincerely apologise in writing to the staff member for my use of bad language on the day. I was upset and reacted inappropriately. It was disrespectful and I completely agree that no one should be disrespected, abused or threatened whilst at work, work should be a safe space for anyone. I also appreciate the work that all train staff conduct on a daily basis to keep us commuters safe and check that everyone has the right tickets to travel on. I appreciate how much fare dodging costs train operators every day so the job is invaluable. For my words, I am truly sorry. I can guarantee that I have learnt a hard lesson from this and this will never happen again in the future.

I have been cooperative with the investigation at every stage and am anxious and willing to seek a resolution if Northern would graciously consider offering a settlement. I would be happy to pay any settlements including any accrued administration costs as soon as possible.

Yours faithfully

 

[MotCO]

Possibly better to address it "Dear Sir" - by being more formal it looks as though you are taking this matter seriously.

Also include the Ref no in the heading.

 

[momo18]

Possibly better to address it "Dear Sir" - by being more formal it looks as though you are taking this matter seriously.

Also include the Ref no in the heading.

Ok Perfect, thanks! Dear Sir or Madam perhaps?
Include the ref number in the subject title of the email or at the beginning of the email?

 

[MotCO]

Ok Perfect, thanks! Dear Sir or Madam perhaps?
Include the ref number in the subject title of the email or at the beginning of the email?

Yes, Sir / Madam.

I would put the ref just under the Dear Sir/Madam.

i.e.

Dear Sir/Madam

Ref: xxxxxxxx

Many thanks ....

 

[momo18]

Yes, Sir / Madam.

I would put the ref just under the Dear Sir/Madam.

i.e.

Dear Sir/Madam

Ref: xxxxxxxx

Many thanks ....

Great, thanks for your advice! Will get this sent off in the morning and keep everything crossed. Hopefully they’ve not already sent the court paperwork off!

Submitted this morning folks! Thanks for everyone’s help. I feel immediately sick and anxious again now I’ve had had correspondence with them again. Honestly so scared about this whole process, so alien to me! I’ll update if I get anything back otherwise when the paperwork arrives and hope if that’s the case I can still appeal to them to settle out of court.

 

[momo18]

As of yet, no response from drpu at northern or summons landed on my mat…

 

[momo18]

Well Merry Christmas to me!!! Court paperwork has landed on my doormat this afternoon. Good job I hadn’t left for Xmas yet…
Speaking to a solicitor tonight hopefully and deal with it after Xmas.
I particularly like the part where they said they’ve sent multiple letters and no responses then a sentence later says multiple responses received and the incorrect/ omitted facts in the guards statement!
Merry Christmas everyone! X

 

[KirkstallOne]

Well Merry Christmas to me!!! Court paperwork has landed on my doormat this afternoon. Good job I hadn’t left for Xmas yet…
Speaking to a solicitor tonight hopefully and deal with it after Xmas.
I particularly like the part where they said they’ve sent multiple letters and no responses then a sentence later says multiple responses received and the incorrect/ omitted facts in the guards statement!
Merry Christmas everyone! X

I am sure the solicitor will give good advice but I would just say that Northern are generally open to settling on the day in court if it gets that far. I think the prosecutors must find it quite hard to actually tell someone in person, we are prosecuting you regardless of your apologies. Of course yours may be in the bucket of ‘serious abuse of staff’ which obviously they are going to be less inclined to settle but from your description it seems a bit of a storm in a teacup. Good luck and do let us know the final outcome.

 

[momo18]

I am sure the solicitor will give good advice but I would just say that Northern are generally open to settling on the day in court if it gets that far. I think the prosecutors must find it quite hard to actually tell someone in person, we are prosecuting you regardless of your apologies. Of course yours may be in the bucket of ‘serious abuse of staff’ which obviously they are going to be less inclined to settle but from your description it seems a bit of a storm in a teacup. Good luck and do let us know the final outcome.

I would tend to agree tbh. I hear worse at work every day, not that it excuses me losing my calm and telling him to eff off. Forgot to mention in his statement that I apologised to him on the day but hey ho! All things to tell the solicitor/ magistrate!
Thanks for your nice words, trying not to let the scrooges spoil my Xmas. To be dealt with in the new year! Merry Christmas to you all! X

 

[BazingaTribe]

I would tend to agree tbh. I hear worse at work every day, not that it excuses me losing my calm and telling him to eff off. Forgot to mention in his statement that I apologised to him on the day but hey ho! All things to tell the solicitor/ magistrate!
Thanks for your nice words, trying not to let the scrooges spoil my Xmas. To be dealt with in the new year! Merry Christmas to you all! X

I think you need to remember that hearing bad language at work in banter between colleagues isn't the same as hearing it from customers. Having been on the receiving end of abuse from service users as a former receptionist in the health service (where I couldn't do anything other than follow the chain of command in the office where I worked and often wished I had a magic wand to help people who were dissatisfied with the options available) it's very, very different to the odd four letter word you hear when working with maintenance guys! You do generally grow a thick skin -- on my last shift on reception before promotion I had to deal with travellers camping in our car park and when I did a few shifts as a favour for my colleague after promotion, there was a caller who just needed a listening ear but got increasingly frustrated when I couldn't actually do anything for her, much as I wished I could.

Empathy goes a long way. You don't have to not be disgusted or disappointed at the situation -- that's ok. My internet was out for three weeks after someone dug up a bunch of cables and I was still on the old telephone cables which required a bigger fix. I was really upset and it was incredibly stressful to deal with. The internet company paid for an alternative service while they sorted everything out. But expressing that dissatisfaction has to be done reasonably carefully -- I didn't swear at the customer service rep and if I had I would expect to have been cut off; most people in our line of work have permission from their management to end calls like that.

I think to really get the best outcome, you need to go into this sincerely wishing to apologise. Sincerity in apologies comes from actually understanding you did something wrong and understanding how the other person feels, and while your letter expresses understanding of this situation reasonably well, it's really important that, when dealing with them in person, you get into the headspace where you did something wrong here and thus ended up having to instruct a solicitor and go to court about it.

I fear that if you take this mental state into any further discussion with Northern you might end up in a bad way. That's not good for anyone involved, least of all you.

 

[momo18]

I work in Healthcare and the comment re: hearing things at work was from service users. Sorry to hear you’ve also been on the receiving end of some abuse, really not pleasant is it.

Re: apology, he definitely heard me. He turned his back on me afterwards.

Thank you for your advice re: dealing with them in person, it’s definitely been taken on board. I just want it all to be over, disappointed I’m spending my Xmas worrying about it (whether I think I am or not!)
Have a lovely Xmas x

 

[BazingaTribe]

I work in Healthcare and the comment re: hearing things at work was from service users. Sorry to hear you’ve also been on the receiving end of some abuse, really not pleasant is it.

Re: apology, he definitely heard me. He turned his back on me afterwards.

Thank you for your advice re: dealing with them in person, it’s definitely been taken on board. I just want it all to be over, disappointed I’m spending my Xmas worrying about it (whether I think I am or not!)
Have a lovely Xmas x

No, that legitimately sucks. I'm sorry. The comfort I took from my experiences was that most people will have been sick at some point and in pain and not thinking straight, but it doesn't often make it any easier to deal with. I hope management also have your back -- mine certainly did and it makes a huge difference.

And happy Christmas . Just about to make my own journey this morning and psyching myself up! I hope you can get this sorted. It's very frustrating but the people here are amazing and have got many good results for people in similar situations. Just go in with a cooperative mind, dig deep and I hope it will get sorted.