Court paperwork issued. Help, I’m scared!

[momo18]

Hi all, first time poster
Usually travel Northern fine no issue. However on Mon 19th August travelled from Sowerby Bridge to Heben Bridge. I wanted to get the 13.02 train but this train wouldn’t show on the machine, only the 13.22 so I thought ah I’ll get it on the train like I normally do. Myself, hubby and baby were travelling.

The conductor didn’t end up coming round so getting off at hebden naively approached the ticket inspectors with my phone out asking to pay as needed a return ticket anyway. Immediately was treated in a provoking and aggressive manner accusing us of being criminals for fare dodging. Wouldn’t offer any help or advice. Ashamed to say it upset me and I swore at him a couple of times.

Hubby was asked for his details to report that the machine wasn’t offering the correct train to travel on. Weeks later we both get letters from northern. Hubby is offered to pay ticket price but mine is asking for a statement. Genuinely anxious about the whole thing I sent a statement back to them (that was end of September) and have chased them and had an email to say that I’m being issued with court paperwork for the language used towards the staff member. I said bull**** I think and **** you as I walked past. Not my finest hour and I immediately went back to apologise but he had his back turned (now wondering if that’s because he was wearing body cam and he didn’t want to record me?)

I did put a complaint in the night of Monday 19th which doesn’t appear to have had any effect. Except that I had a helpful customer service man who told me how to use the machine.

Re: the court paperwork. I’m so scared of this. I don’t know what it means or if I’m going to get a criminal record. I’ve not slept for the last 2 nights. I haven’t received the paperwork yet but I was hoping I could settle out of court but it doesn’t seem like it.

So worried!
Thanks all

 

[Snow1964]

Difficult to know if you are being taken to court over a ticketing offence, or because of verbal assault. From what you say it is not clear what you are being charged with.

How you respond will rather depend on that, and might need to wait for a letter, (if you upload it please redact all references, dates, names etc)

In meantime, perhaps you can explain what You mean when you say your train wouldn't show on a machine, was this a ticket machine at the station. If not was it an app (which one). Had the time already passed (even if train was late), some are programmed not to show after scheduled departure because rules state must buy online tickets before boarding, not when already on train.

 

[momo18]

Difficult to know if you are being taken to court over a ticketing offence, or because of verbal assault. From what you say it is not clear what you are being charged with

They said in the email due to language used towards staff member they’re sending court paperwork out

I got there about 10 mins before train due to leave. We tried to buy 2 any time day returns from the ticket machine and it was making me select an outbound train to be able to continue with the purchase. The train I wanted to travel on wasn’t showing as an option to select, only the 13.22 which we wouldn’t be travelling on and I actually thought if I bought that one then that’s wrong so I’ll probably get a slap on the wrist!

I don’t think they’re bothered re: the ticket issue, they appear to be chasing me for the language I used.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Re: the court paperwork. I’m so scared of this. I don’t know what it means or if I’m going to get a criminal record. I’ve not slept for the last 2 nights. I haven’t received the paperwork yet but I was hoping I could settle out of court but it doesn’t seem like it.

It’s worth thinking about the worst that could happen:
- the court could fine you, along with various other costs, and
- you would have a ‘criminal record’ which you would have to tell organisations who needed to know (employers, insurance companies, mortgage companies - that sort of thing) for a few years*

And that’s it. That’s obviously not brilliant, but you won’t be going to prison. As long as you find the money to pay the fine etc., the main punishment will be the embarrassment.

*For regular contributors - I am not sure what charge might be used for offensive language, or what that would do to a conviction becoming spent. Hence my vagueness here.

 

[momo18]

It’s worth thinking about the worst that could happen:
- the court could fine you, along with various other costs, and
- you would have a ‘criminal record’ which you would have to tell organisations who needed to know (employers, insurance companies, mortgage companies - that sort of thing) for a few years*

And that’s it. That’s obviously not brilliant, but you won’t be going to prison. As long as you find the money to pay the fine etc., the main punishment will be the embarrassment.

*For regular contributors - I am not sure what charge might be used for offensive language, or what that would do to a conviction becoming spent. Hence my vagueness here.

Thank you! I definitely am catastrophising. Does anyone ever go to court and not get a criminal record? Is it the same severity as say assault for example if the police are involved?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Does anyone ever go to court and not get a criminal record?

Assuming that you plead guilty or are found guilty, then you are a convicted criminal and it's on the court record - and until the offence is 'spent' if people ask about it ( 'do you have any criminal convictions?') then your honest answer would be 'yes'. But this isn't quite the same question as 'would it show up on a DBS check?' where the answer is 'probably not'.

As you say, you may be catastrophising. While obviously given the choice it's better not to have to go to court, it's not the end of the world either. It's something which is embarrassing rather than disastrous.

 

[momo18]

Assuming that you plead guilty or are found guilty, then you are a convicted criminal and it's on the court record - and until the offence is 'spent' if people ask about it ( 'do you have any criminal convictions?') then your honest answer would be 'yes'. But this isn't quite the same question as 'would it show up on a DBS check?' where the answer is 'probably not'.

As you say, you may be catastrophising. While obviously given the choice it's better not to have to go to court, it's not the end of the world either. It's something which is embarrassing rather than disastrous.

Am I best waiting for the paperwork before contacting Northern again hoping they might offer an out of court settlement? I just don’t know if it’ll be too late by the time the paperwork comes for that to be an option anymore!
The DBS is the thing I’m worried about tbh, the fine I’ll just pay someway

 

[AlterEgo]

Am I best waiting for the paperwork before contacting Northern again hoping they might offer an out of court settlement? I just don’t know if it’ll be too late by the time the paperwork comes for that to be an option anymore!
The DBS is the thing I’m worried about tbh, the fine I’ll just pay someway

You need to wait for the paperwork to find out what the charge is. It’s unlikely they will offer to settle out of court if they consider you have abused their staff, though, which is why they have decided to treat you differently in the first instance.

 

[Haywain]

*For regular contributors - I am not sure what charge might be used for offensive language,

They may not choose to charge for that, but use the behaviour as their reason for charging for the ticketing offence.

 

[momo18]

They may not choose to charge for that, but use the behaviour as their reason for charging for the ticketing offence.

They said in their email that “Due to the language used towards the officer, I can confirm the matter has been passed to our Prosecutions team who will be in touch with Court paperwork” so I don’t actually know what they are accusing me of. I guess I’ll wait and see what comes with the paperwork. Everyone is being so helpful on here it’s really appreciated

 

[Cantab26]

*For regular contributors - I am not sure what charge might be used for offensive language, or what that would do to a conviction becoming spent. Hence my vagueness here.

Section 4A or 5 of the Public Order Act 1986. The main difference is that the former is potentially imprisonable for up to six months.

Potentially also Byelaw 6.

But this isn't quite the same question as 'would it show up on a DBS check?' where the answer is 'probably not'.

The section 4A offence is imprisonable which means that it would almost certainly be recorded on PNC.

I would not expect a TOC to prosecute either of these public order offences though. They are more likely to prosecute the byelaw offence(s) and raise the abusive language as an aggravating factor.

 

[momo18]

Section 4A or 5 of the Public Order Act 1986. The main difference is that the former is potentially imprisonable for up to six months.

Potentially also Byelaw 6.

The section 4A offence is imprisonable which means that it would almost certainly be recorded on PNC.

I would not expect a TOC to prosecute either of these public order offences though. They are more likely to prosecute the byelaw offence(s) and raise the abusive language as an aggravating factor.

Am I likely to know what I’m being taken to court for once the paperwork comes through? I have no idea never had to do anything like this before!

 

[Cantab26]

Am I likely to know what I’m being taken to court for once the paperwork comes through? I have no idea never had to do anything like this before!

The papers should specify the relevant legislation by reference to the section creating the offence.

For example: “contrary to Railway Byelaw 6”, or as the case may be.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Section 4A or 5 of the Public Order Act 1986. The main difference is that the former is potentially imprisonable for up to six months.

Potentially also Byelaw 6.

The section 4A offence is imprisonable which means that it would almost certainly be recorded on PNC.

I would not expect a TOC to prosecute either of these public order offences though. They are more likely to prosecute the byelaw offence(s) and raise the abusive language as an aggravating factor.

Just to put the OPs mind at rest, unless she has a history with the courts, there is no way she would go to prison for a first S4 POA offence. In fact, a Conditional Discharge is a more likely disposal.

 

[momo18]

I’m also now worried that if I was recorded on webcam that they conveniently wouldn’t have recorded my apology given that I had left the station and gone back in. My word against theirs isn’t it

 

[AlterEgo]

I’m also now worried that if I was recorded on webcam that they conveniently wouldn’t have recorded my apology given that I had left the station and gone back in. My word against theirs isn’t it

None of this is likely to be relevant. It’s most likely you will be charged with a Bylaw offence related to the ticketing matter and they aren’t going to make a separate charge for any offensive or abusive behaviour.

 

[Snow1964]

I’m also now worried that if I was recorded on webcam that they conveniently wouldn’t have recorded my apology given that I had left the station and gone back in. My word against theirs isn’t it

It could happen that they present a short bit of webcam footage, and you say where is the next bit where I apologised, or the bit before where they spoke to me.

Magistrates are usually pretty experienced, and over the years have seen it all, so if you ask for the rest of recording and they say didn't keep it, they will likely ask why there is just a snippet. There tends to be two sides to each story and they tend to like to know what happened before to cause any outburst. Also if there is flexibility in scale of fines court rather likes to know if a penalty is proportional to what happened.

However until they charge you, if they do, no point in fretting, because cannot actively do anything against possible unknown.

 

[momo18]

It could happen that they present a short bit of webcam footage, and you say where is the next bit where I apologised, or the bit before where they spoke to me.

Magistrates are usually pretty experienced, and over the years have seen it all, so if you ask for the rest of recording and they say didn't keep it, they will likely ask why there is just a snippet. There tends to be two sides to each story and they tend to like to know what happened before to cause any outburst. Also if there is flexibility in scale of fines court rather likes to know if a penalty is proportional to what happened.

However until they charge you, if they do, no point in fretting, because cannot actively do anything against possible unknown.

Thank you. This makes me feel a little better. Feel like I’m being set up for a big fall with their word vs mine. I have no idea how this all works and tbh I’m petrified about it

 

[Haywain]

It could happen that they present a short bit of webcam footage, and you say where is the next bit where I apologised, or the bit before where they spoke to me.

That could happen, but as the OP would appear to be guilty of the Byelaw offence, if that is what they are charged with, then a guilty plea would be more appropriate and that would prevent further discussion either way. The abusive language is what the train company would appear to be using to justify and back-up their prosecution, but other than probably being mentioned in their witness statement it is not likely to form a significant part of the case. I think it is highly unlikely that any webcam footage will be produced.

 

[KirkstallOne]

You need to wait for the paperwork to find out what the charge is. It’s unlikely they will offer to settle out of court if they consider you have abused their staff, though, which is why they have decided to treat you differently in the first instance.

I personally know a Northern case where they were charged with byelaw 6 (offensive language) and byelaw 18 (no valid ticket). The byelaw 18 charge was dropped, the byelaw 6 charge was settled on the day.

I think Northern may be happy to settle and would advise getting in touch with a fulsome apology and to ask if they would be prepared to settle out of court.

 

[momo18]

That could happen, but as the OP would appear to be guilty of the Byelaw offence, if that is what they are charged with, then a guilty plea would be more appropriate and that would prevent further discussion either way. The abusive language is what the train company would appear to be using to justify and back-up their prosecution, but other than probably being mentioned in their witness statement it is not likely to form a significant part of the case. I think it is highly unlikely that any webcam footage will be produced.

Oh I am 100% guilty of it if we’re looking at it black & white. I don’t dispute that. I put details in my complaint and subsequent response to NR re: trying to buy a ticket and my willingness to pay but fact is I didn’t have a ticket when asked for one. I naively approached the ticket inspectors asking to buy one. I also didn’t get a promise to pay as I thought they were when you only had cash and therefore couldn’t pay at the machine. I was also made aware that I shouldn’t be buying tickets from the conductor (which I have done regularly) as their job is to purely to check tickets. I did ask why they had ticket machines in some correspondence with an advisor!? ‍♀️

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Nov 2024 ==

I personally know a Northern case where they were charged with byelaw 6 (offensive language) and byelaw 18 (no valid ticket). The byelaw 18 charge was dropped, the byelaw 6 charge was settled on the day.

I think Northern may be happy to settle and would advise getting in touch with a fulsome apology and to ask if they would be prepared to settle out of court.

Do you think I should wait until I receive some paperwork?
I’ve been completely cooperative thus far (maybe too much and got myself in more of a mess!)
I have in previous correspondence said I was extremely anxious to come to a resolution but they still seem to be ploughing ahead anyway.
If anyone could suggest a way that I could word a request to settle out of court I’d be super grateful!

 

[Haywain]

I have in previous correspondence said I was extremely anxious to come to a resolution but they still seem to be ploughing ahead anyway.

If you can post what you sent, and the response you received, we may be able to advise on appropriate wording for another attempt.

 

[some bloke]

Immediately was treated in a provoking and aggressive manner accusing us of being criminals for fare dodging.

If you can describe that more thoroughly on here (bearing in mind that memory tends to deceive us more than we expect) it may be relevant.

I did put a complaint in the night of Monday 19th which doesn’t appear to have had any effect.

What you wrote in the complaint may also be worth posting on here in case there's anything of significance.

The DBS is the thing I’m worried about tbh

Who is going to think particularly badly of you for thinking you could get on the train without a ticket, then swearing at a guard who you say had provoked you?

 

[momo18]

If you can post what you sent, and the response you received, we may be able to advise on appropriate wording for another attempt.

My initial complaint

To whom it may concern,

I am lodging a formal complaint to highlight the appalling standard of customer service we experienced at Hebden Bridge station.

The manner can only be described as bullying, aggressive & totally unacceptable. We requested the name of the member of staff involved but he would only give his badge number - 106175.

My husband, myself & baby son travelled from Sowerby Bridge to Hebden Bridge for a day out. Wanted to travel on the 13.22 train today (19/8/24) & went to obtain an Anytime Day Return ticket from the machine. The machine didn’t show the train we wanted to travel on & would only provide us with a ticket if we selected a specific outbound train i.e. the 14.02, which we weren’t travelling on. I therefore didn’t continue with the transaction as this wouldn’t have been for the correct journey & assumed as on previous occasions, I would be able to purchase a ticket on the train from the conductor. However on this occasion, the conductor didn’t come through the train so I planned on purchasing a ticket at Hebden Bridge.

On leaving the train however, we were met with an aggressively mannered staff member who, despite our explanation of the situation, stated something about fare evasion. We made it very clear we had no intentions of fare evasion but he wasn't interested in the explanation & made us feel like criminals for something we had no control over. He informed us that it isn’t the conductor's job to check tickets, yet this is usual practice! We were refused any help or advice on purchasing the ticket & the staff member just kept repeating that we had travelled without a ticket. He started demanding personal details which he said was for a ‘report’ but wouldn’t explain fully what the personal details were being collected for (surely a breach of Data Protection?). He originally mentioned the report was to do with fare evasion but when questioned further changed tact & stated it was to report that the machine wasn’t working (which we didn’t say). Again we asked why personal details would be required which he didn’t answer. We were made to feel very intimidated & it was very upsetting. We have no idea what the report is going to be used for or what happens next.

As the member of staff was just intent on completing a report rather than trying to resolve the situation I proceeded to buy a ticket for an anytime return from the machine at Hebden Bridge (£9 in total), which we needed to get back home anyway, but this still wasn’t acceptable. We were growing increasingly more frustrated & upset at how we were being treated. I admit I did swear a few times out of upset & frustration & went back to apologise after reflection & again asked for advice on what we should do if this occurred again but I was again refused any advice or help.

Having looked at the physical ticket I purchased there is no mention of any train time printed on it & I am still confused as to how I can buy from the machine at the originating station if it does not show the train you want to travel on. No one would explain it at Hebden Bridge as they were fixated on the 'report'.

We have done this journey numerous times & never had an issue previously. There was a lady with a little boy who was also travelling on our train, who as a witness, feels the same way and was reduced to tears outside the station following similar treatment she received. We are all incredibly upset over this treatment & felt there was no other option but to make Northern aware of this. This has made my husband & I extremely reluctant to travel & use this provider again based on how we have been treated & made to feel. I also feel compelled to lodge this complaint so other people don’t experience the same treatment.

We are both hardworking parents who brought their little boy out for the day, we pay everything we need to & don’t have an issue with paying the ticket fare (which we actually did when able to do so). We work hard to allow us to have special days out like today should have been.

Response to northern rails letter and the responding email after chasing are in the pictures.

I thought the initial letter was regarding the ticket evasion but seems not?

 

[AlterEgo]

Have you at any point in corresponding with them apologised for saying f**k you to the staff? It’s baffling you raised a complaint in light of this.

 

[some bloke]

It's best if you post on here the rest of the correspondence both to and from you.

 

[momo18]

Have you at any point in corresponding with them apologised for saying f**k you to the staff? It’s baffling you raised a complaint in light of this.

It looks like I only did that in the initial complaint where I mentioned that I apologised directly to said staff member. I was so fixated on responding re: the ticket information back to northern and referenced the complaint however that was probably a massive oversight on my part. The complaint was sent the night that it happened so I probably should have apologised to the company as well?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Nov 2024 ==

It's best if you post on here the rest of the correspondence both to and from you.

Do you mean the official letter I received?

 

[some bloke]

Do you mean the official letter I received?

Yes, and the chasing email or whatever you sent - everything.

 

[momo18]

Yes, and the chasing email or whatever you sent - everything.

 

[some bloke]

As they wrote to you on 13 and 30 September asking for comments, is there another response you sent?

Or as they both say they are an initial contact letter, did you perhaps ignore one?

It may be helpful if you can give dates for the correspondence in images where dates aren't visible.


In your complaint you wrote,

"As the member of staff was just intent on completing a report rather than trying to resolve the situation I proceeded to buy a ticket... from the machine at Hebden Bridge...but this still wasn’t acceptable. We were growing increasingly more frustrated & upset at how we were being treated. I admit I did swear a few times out of upset & frustration"

Are you saying that you swore just after he refused to accept that the ticket you'd just bought solved the problem?

It isn't clear why you wrote "this still wasn’t acceptable", given that he had already made clear buying another ticket from him wasn't acceptable.

I immediately went back to apologise but he had his back turned (now wondering if that’s because he was wearing body cam and he didn’t want to record me?)

Are you sure he heard your apology clearly enough?

In the complaint you wrote,

"I...went back to apologise after reflection"

which doesn't sound immediate.


"There was a lady with a little boy who was also travelling on our train, who as a witness, feels the same way and was reduced to tears outside the station following similar treatment she received."

Do you mean the lady is contactable and prepared to be a witness for you?


What you can do now is draft two things:

"Why I thought I could buy on the train (despite notices at stations saying I couldn't?)"

and

"Why I swore".