Doncaster Sheffield Airport to reopen?

[pug1]

A bidder for the airport has been found according to City of Doncaster website. Yet more public money being spent to allow the people of Yorkshire to boost the economies of Mediterranean countries!

The FBC doesn’t really elaborate on how they plan to make it a success;

https://governance.southyorkshire-ca.gov.uk/documents/s17139/11.%20South%20Yorkshire%20Airport%20City%20Full%20Business%20Case.pdf

What is clear is that, in order to get an ‘operator’ to bite, they are having to shoulder the risk until confidence can be instilled to attract private investment. So they’re having to take more of a controlling role than they would have liked. This is going to cost lots, although they appear confident that the project will remain on budget.

Also of note is the terms of lease, the passenger and freight throughput has to meet certain levels. It’s not clear whether these are figures determined by Peel, or whether the premise of the business case is a growth model based on passenger throughput and tonnage that must be met to reach financial viability.

With a history of poor passenger support when big names made commitments to the airport, that highlights a fundamental lack of sufficient demand for the airport. With that in mind, and knowing how failed airline attempts lead to a lack of confidence in the market (each time an airline pulls out because of lack of demand, it makes the job of attracting a replacement exponentially more tricky, compounded further each time it happens), the airport management will have to work incredibly hard to attract and retain all business that starts up at the airport. This would need to include airlines that are currently entrenched at nearby airports - there are not that many to go around!

I feel that not only is this news premature - they are asking for £3m to ‘complete the commercial and legal negotiations’ I.e. the operator hadn’t yet signed on the dotted line, and there will as yet be no commercial agreement with any airlines. The local airports will now have sufficient forewarning to double down on the negotiations that are currently ongoing, including easyjet and Loganair at LBA, applying even more pressure.

This is a crazy waste of public money and is far too high risk for a local authority whose finances are already squeezed.

 

[BrianW]

The FBC doesn’t really elaborate on how they plan to make it a success;

https://governance.southyorkshire-ca.gov.uk/documents/s17139/11.%20South%20Yorkshire%20Airport%20City%20Full%20Business%20Case.pdf

What is clear is that, in order to get an ‘operator’ to bite, they are having to shoulder the risk until confidence can be instilled to attract private investment. So they’re having to take more of a controlling role than they would have liked. This is going to cost lots, although they appear confident that the project will remain on budget.

Also of note is the terms of lease, the passenger and freight throughput has to meet certain levels. It’s not clear whether these are figures determined by Peel, or whether the premise of the business case is a growth model based on passenger throughput and tonnage that must be met to reach financial viability.

With a history of poor passenger support when big names made commitments to the airport, that highlights a fundamental lack of sufficient demand for the airport. With that in mind, and knowing how failed airline attempts lead to a lack of confidence in the market (each time an airline pulls out because of lack of demand, it makes the job of attracting a replacement exponentially more tricky, compounded further each time it happens), the airport management will have to work incredibly hard to attract and retain all business that starts up at the airport. This would need to include airlines that are currently entrenched at nearby airports - there are not that many to go around!

I feel that not only is this news premature - they are asking for £3m to ‘complete the commercial and legal negotiations’ I.e. the operator hadn’t yet signed on the dotted line, and there will as yet be no commercial agreement with any airlines. The local airports will now have sufficient forewarning to double down on the negotiations that are currently ongoing, including easyjet and Loganair at LBA, applying even more pressure.

This is a crazy waste of public money and is far too high risk for a local authority whose finances are already squeezed.

Is it the case that the electors of Doncaster prefer £3 million be spent on this rather than on the poor and/or sick and infirm? Vanity. Is it a subsidy/bribe to the environmentally damaging airline industry? Will it inhibit folk from driving to some other airport to export their hard earned cash on a well-deserved holiday in the sun of some distant place desperate for the income in order to fight existential climate change. One could despair.

 

[Killingworth]

The FBC doesn’t really elaborate on how they plan to make it a success;

https://governance.southyorkshire-ca.gov.uk/documents/s17139/11.%20South%20Yorkshire%20Airport%20City%20Full%20Business%20Case.pdf

What is clear is that, in order to get an ‘operator’ to bite, they are having to shoulder the risk until confidence can be instilled to attract private investment. So they’re having to take more of a controlling role than they would have liked. This is going to cost lots, although they appear confident that the project will remain on budget.

Also of note is the terms of lease, the passenger and freight throughput has to meet certain levels. It’s not clear whether these are figures determined by Peel, or whether the premise of the business case is a growth model based on passenger throughput and tonnage that must be met to reach financial viability.

With a history of poor passenger support when big names made commitments to the airport, that highlights a fundamental lack of sufficient demand for the airport. With that in mind, and knowing how failed airline attempts lead to a lack of confidence in the market (each time an airline pulls out because of lack of demand, it makes the job of attracting a replacement exponentially more tricky, compounded further each time it happens), the airport management will have to work incredibly hard to attract and retain all business that starts up at the airport. This would need to include airlines that are currently entrenched at nearby airports - there are not that many to go around!

I feel that not only is this news premature - they are asking for £3m to ‘complete the commercial and legal negotiations’ I.e. the operator hadn’t yet signed on the dotted line, and there will as yet be no commercial agreement with any airlines. The local airports will now have sufficient forewarning to double down on the negotiations that are currently ongoing, including easyjet and Loganair at LBA, applying even more pressure.

This is a crazy waste of public money and is far too high risk for a local authority whose finances are already squeezed.

Would love to disagree, but from where we are now Option 2 seems inevitable, ultimately leading to Option 3.

Every time I see this thread ignite I'm reminded of attending a big press promotional event at the airport. Very swish and all afternoon we saw only one aircraft move on the airfield.

On another day some friends and I did a long walk in the area of the airport. It seemed very busy. Aircraft landing and taking off at frequent intervals. Then we twigged. it was the same aircraft doing circuits and bumps. No passenger through puts for the airport but easy landing fees.

On a couple of occasions I dropped in to see how it was going. Deserted.

I know friends who swear it was brilliant for them for their on time flights with no airport delays. But think of all the subsidies already expended. How much more is to go down a black hole with minimal chance of break even being achieved?

 

[pug1]

Would love to disagree, but from where we are now Option 2 seems inevitable, ultimately leading to Option 3.

Every time I see this thread ignite I'm reminded of attending a big press promotional event at the airport. Very swish and all afternoon we saw only one aircraft move on the airfield.

On another day some friends and I did a long walk in the area of the airport. It seemed very busy. Aircraft landing and taking off at frequent intervals. Then we twigged. it was the same aircraft doing circuits and bumps. No passenger through puts for the airport but easy landing fees.

On a couple of occasions I dropped in to see how it was going. Deserted.

I know friends who swear it was brilliant for them for their on time flights with no airport delays. But think of all the subsidies already expended. How much more is to go down a black hole with minimal chance of break even being achieved?

Yes and I know one of the airlines that occasionally used it for training paid next to nothing to do so, even then they often chose somewhere else to do the circuits (base training to be pedantic), so actually those movements probably contributed very little to the bottom line.

I’m sure that anyone who lives in Lincolnshire/East Yorkshire and Doncaster would love for it to reopen, but anyone who lives more than 30 minutes to the South and West are very much within the catchment area of more successful ( until now) airports, and they tend to win out on price and choice - the more flights the more flexibility and the more likely you are to find a good deal. But in order to offer choice a large market has to exist in the first instance.

East Yorkshire, Lincolnshire and Doncaster can be adequately served by Humberside. An airport that is now back in profit and could be anyone’s for a cool £10m!! Has the niche business required of an airport as a baseline guarantee useage, and a market of potentially 2million within an hours drive. Bring DSA back and it’s ultimately attempting to serve the same market, will need to attract business away from competitors and ultimately still has a smaller direct market than EMA LBA and MAN.

It’s nothing more than a very expensive vanity project that is being pushed through on the basis of hyper inflated jobs/GVA projections that are highly unlikely to be attained.

I just hope someone sees sense and/or the SAU pull them up on a few things, because if they are intending to steal business from LBA and EMA, subsidy rules may preclude it to an extent!

 

[mpthomson]

Is it the case that the electors of Doncaster prefer £3 million be spent on this rather than on the poor and/or sick and infirm? Vanity. Is it a subsidy/bribe to the environmentally damaging airline industry? Will it inhibit folk from driving to some other airport to export their hard earned cash on a well-deserved holiday in the sun of some distant place desperate for the income in order to fight existential climate change. One could despair.

It's an elected Mayor issue unfortunately. It doesnt matter what party that the Mayor is from. They want to have a project to hang their hat on with an eye on re-election. Teesside Airport (still losing millions of pounds of council taxpayers' money every year) is the other example of this, though the local elected Mayor is a Tory.

It has exactly the same issues thet DSA does in terms of no catchment population not adequately covered by other airports meaning that airlines aren't interested in it enough to make it financially viable.

 

[Iskra]

Would love to disagree, but from where we are now Option 2 seems inevitable, ultimately leading to Option 3.

Every time I see this thread ignite I'm reminded of attending a big press promotional event at the airport. Very swish and all afternoon we saw only one aircraft move on the airfield.

On another day some friends and I did a long walk in the area of the airport. It seemed very busy. Aircraft landing and taking off at frequent intervals. Then we twigged. it was the same aircraft doing circuits and bumps. No passenger through puts for the airport but easy landing fees.

On a couple of occasions I dropped in to see how it was going. Deserted.

I know friends who swear it was brilliant for them for their on time flights with no airport delays. But think of all the subsidies already expended. How much more is to go down a black hole with minimal chance of break even being achieved?

It was undoubtedly a brilliant airport for passenger experience; probably the best in the UK for the two return trips that I used it for with Tui (Sanford & Corfu). However, it was only good due to the lack of footfall really.

As a South Yorkshire resident, Manchester is way more convenient and cost-effective to access and I resent every penny being spent on this project.

 

[BrianW]

It's an elected Mayor issue unfortunately. It doesnt matter what party that the Mayor is from. They want to have a project to hang their hat on with an eye on re-election. Teesside Airport (still losing millions of pounds of council taxpayers' money every year) is the other example of this, though the local elected Mayor is a Tory.

It has exactly the same issues thet DSA does in terms of no catchment population not adequately covered by other airports meaning that airlines aren't interested in it enough to make it financially viable.

It was undoubtedly a brilliant airport for passenger experience; probably the best in the UK for the two return trips that I used it for with Tui (Sanford & Corfu). However, it was only good due to the lack of footfall really.

As a South Yorkshire resident, Manchester is way more convenient and cost-effective to access and I resent every penny being spent on this project.

Who elects the Mayor? Whose money is being spent, and how much? IIUC the 'Full Business case' (!) talks of £105 million- the whole of some 'grant'- whose money is that, and what might it otherwise be spent on?

All vanity- and as the 'report' does acknowledge, holiday flights transferred from elsewhere. IIUC, there are 40 trains a day from Doncaster to Skegness.

 

[mpthomson]

It was undoubtedly a brilliant airport for passenger experience; probably the best in the UK for the two return trips that I used it for with Tui (Sanford & Corfu). However, it was only good due to the lack of footfall really.

As a South Yorkshire resident, Manchester is way more convenient and cost-effective to access and I resent every penny being spent on this project.

Indeed, at the passenger volumes that it needs to be profitable (more than twice as many passengers as its ever had) the terminal experience would be exactly the same as LBA is now.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Nov 2024 ==

Who elects the Mayor? Whose money is being spent, and how much? IIUC the 'Full Business case' (!) talks of £105 million- the whole of some 'grant'- whose money is that, and what might it otherwise be spent on?

All vanity- and as the 'report' does acknowledge, holiday flights transferred from elsewhere. IIUC, there are 40 trains a day from Doncaster to Skegness.

The £105 mn grant is a central Government grant, which means that ultimately it comes from taxpayers. It couldn't be spent on anything locally that isn't a capital investment, ie it couldn't just be spent on existing services.

The ongoing losses a reopened DSA would inevitably have for an undefined period will almost certainly have to be borne by the combined South Yorkshire Authority (so council tax payers locally) out of their normal budget, I can't see any potential operator agreeing to anything else.

 

[pug1]

Who elects the Mayor? Whose money is being spent, and how much? IIUC the 'Full Business case' (!) talks of £105 million- the whole of some 'grant'- whose money is that, and what might it otherwise be spent on?

All vanity- and as the 'report' does acknowledge, holiday flights transferred from elsewhere. IIUC, there are 40 trains a day from Doncaster to Skegness.

That £105m is I think in addition to £6m already spent on the project procurement, legal, consultancy and ‘viability’ assessment. Im not sure if the additional £3m is on top of the £6m or part of, but either way that is £111m to be invested. That leaves only £27m for other projects spread over 30 years.

The FBC gives nothing away, additional documents of course kept outside of the public eye for commercial confidentiality. This is convenient. Read para 1.14 in the FBC, they are likely to have to subsidies the operation for a prolonged period to prove viability before the private sector will take an interest. This operator appointed stuff mirrors exactly what Ben Houchen did at Teesside, when he got Stobart to operate the airport and gifted them 25% of the business. They very quickly reneged on the deal, with the 25% share being handed over to a charitable trust that doesn’t take donations… What a way to avoid scrutiny eh!

I can see the same thing happening here. They attract an operator with some credentials on a basis that the council will pay and subsidise the costs for a period that hasn’t been determined, operator either sees potential and takes on the running, lease and shoulders the financial burden, or they pull out leaving the council to pick up the pieces.

They won’t have any tangible airline agreements in place yet, because no airline will sign up whilst things aren’t set in stone. So it’s a huge risk. Im sure TUI would return in some form but it may not be business as usual, it also won’t pay the bills!

Interestingly para 3.6 - threatening SYMCA that if they don’t progress, CDC will be expecting compensation!

Scandalous and unfortunately the general public, whilst seemingly supportive, are only supportive because they believe the myth that Peel wanted to run it down, and that if they hadn’t DSA would be a major airport like Manchester. For a city the size of Doncaster, with a poor economy, that will never happen.

 

[BrianW]

Pug1- 'poor economy' indeed. Poor people. High deprivation. Low skills. Low education. No university ... they deserve better.

IIUC the FBC states clearly that financial support for the airport will deprive ALL otherwise deserving claims of ANY financial support.

I sense that 'voices of reason' will be voices crying, ignored, in the wilderness.

Best to be hoped for perhaps a subsequent Audit report condemning behaviours, to also be ignored some way after the event.

 

[thejuggler]

The Mayor has decided this will happen come what may, cognitive dissonace is now coming into play. She in too deep not do it, regardless of all the evidence about why its a bad idea.

Better to look at all the flat land as an asset and use it for something productive. Ed Miliband is an MP for the Doncaster area, if he can't convince the Mayor and major players this is an ideal site for a sustainable energy production, battery storage, data centres etc he's in the wrong job.

 

[pug1]

Pug1- 'poor economy' indeed. Poor people. High deprivation. Low skills. Low education. No university ... they deserve better.

IIUC the FBC states clearly that financial support for the airport will deprive ALL otherwise deserving claims of ANY financial support.

I sense that 'voices of reason' will be voices crying, ignored, in the wilderness.

Best to be hoped for perhaps a subsequent Audit report condemning behaviours, to also be ignored some way after the event.

Yes and this is being sold on the economic generation an airport apparently brings. This is rubbish, airports can be economic facilitators yes, I look at Humberside and the work that goes on there regarding the support in offshore oil and gas and wind farms, with the KLM service being used by people in that and the shipping industry. But the GVA and economic stimulus of an airport that has only ever served the outbound holiday market? Well it might provide some jobs, many won’t be particularly well paid. I noticed one opponent to the closure that the News outlets used during the closure was a small hotel in bawtry that rented rooms to TUI crew. Clearly those crew used the hotel because they didn’t want to live in the area! In fact it was the least popular airport to be based at in the TUI network as told to me by TUI recently. So the higher paid jobs weren’t being taken by locals on the whole.

They are using the airport as an anchor for the development of a new town. Dan Fell of Doncaster Chamber is claiming that the airport will have two train stations, presumably resurrecting the ECML rerouting along with planting a station on the Lincoln-Doncaster line.

Are these people actually crazy? All they have to do is look at the multi modal studies that have been completed to see that these projects are a non starter until ten airport reaches a critical mass of 10mppa, that is the size of Birmingham, Glasgow or Bristol airports. Yes, those major cities, Doncaster? Nowhere near.

It’s strange that this time around the other regional airports in the area have remained quiet as yet. LBA apparently remain skeptical but are probably doubling down on their airline relationships as we speak. I wonder whether the SAU will have some words of warning, but in the case of Cardiff airport, seems they don’t care too much about public subsidy if loss leading airport enterprises.

 

[mpthomson]

The Mayor has decided this will happen come what may, cognitive dissonace is now coming into play. She in too deep not do it, regardless of all the evidence about why its a bad idea.

Better to look at all the flat land as an asset and use it for something productive. Ed Miliband is an MP for the Doncaster area, if he can't convince the Mayor and major players this is an ideal site for a sustainable energy production, battery storage, data centres etc he's in the wrong job.

The irony is that far more jobs and economic development would be gained by just turning it over to industrial use, as Peel wanted to do. As an idea in terms of jobs DSA employed slightly over 700 people. An Amazon fulfilment warehouse employs roughly 2500, and that would need only a relatively small part of the site.

 

[pug1]

The irony is that far more jobs and economic development would be gained by just turning it over to industrial use, as Peel wanted to do. As an idea in terms of jobs DSA employed slightly over 700 people. An Amazon fulfilment warehouse employs roughly 2500, and that would need only a relatively small part of the site.

Yes, they ignore that though because they are arguing that having global connections on their doorstep will unlock economic growth due international connectivity. I take issue with this on two fronts;

Firstly the time savings for most people in South Yorkshire will be minimal given the North-South and East-West connectivity to other airports. If international connectivity is key to economic growth then why not invest the money into improving connections to MAN which already has well established links to Europe and the World?

Secondly there has to be a latent market for business flights in the first instance. They would struggle to attract airlines on a build it and they’ll eventually come ethos. How long are they to operate a route at significant loss before the economic situation in South Yorkshire improves to enable the route to become profitable? Airlines and airports run at high fixed costs, airline seats are highly perishable products, once the flight takes off you aren’t reclaiming costs by selling the seat in the bargain bucket! An empty seat is lost revenue and probably even lost money!

Another point to note is that trends show a marked decline in business travel overall. This is probably due to increasing use of technology such as Teams where people no longer need to meet in person. So where an airport failed to plug into that market in better times, how will it do any better now?

This trend reduction is also reflected in pure air freight which is trending towards belly hold cargo in passenger aircraft. So if they are building it on the premise that there will be an increase in freighter usage, not only is it next door to the largest pure freight airport in the U.K., but it’s also trying to claim a piece of a market that is also diminishing!

Mention is also made of the synergies between the rail Freugh and shipping cargo from the Humber Ports. This seems like a mindless link to make, because bulk freight such as this will only ever be transported by rail and sea as it’s simply not possible or economical to do so by air!

So rather than this being an anchor point and catalyst for growth in Feb economy and jobs, it becomes an unnecessary cost and use of land that could be turned over for far better uses which would contribute more jobs, more investment and probably in a far more sustainable way.

Regards sustainability, note the bit in the FBC where they suggest that the removal of airfield critical buildings would contribute to emissions anyway so it cancels out the benefit of not having aircraft flying in and out! Defies logic to me, am I missing something?

 

[westv]

I see from wiki that passenger numbers from 2016 to 2019 were around 1.2m to 1.4 a year.
I'm curious to know what sort of numbers would be needed to turn a profit - or is that a question that doesn't have an easy answer?

 

[mpthomson]

I see from wiki that passenger numbers from 2016 to 2019 were around 1.2m to 1.4 a year.
I'm curious to know what sort of numbers would be needed to turn a profit - or is that a question that doesn't have an easy answer?

At least double that from all sensible forecasts. As an idea last year LBA made a modest profit of just over £6mn on around 4.5mn passengers.

 

[pug1]

I see from wiki that passenger numbers from 2016 to 2019 were around 1.2m to 1.4 a year.
I'm curious to know what sort of numbers would be needed to turn a profit - or is that a question that doesn't have an easy answer?

What mpthomson said is pretty accurate. Peel said breakeven was around 2.5mppa but that was based on their model of incentivising and subsidising airlines providing they add enough seats to regain revenue from ancillaries. As we don’t know anything of substance yet we can’t judge what operating model will be adopted. CDC have a growth projection of 2mppa within 10 years so I’m not sure how they have concluded that. If it’s like Teesside it’s predicated on airline(s) basing aircraft at the airport.

Just to give you an idea of how many based aircraft would be necessary to generate 2mppa - before Wizz UK dropped their base, the initial plans for 2 based aircraft would, with the inclusion of the 4 based by TUI, have put 1.8m seats on sale for the year. This also takes into account the non based Wizzair ops and the TUI 787 routes that also weren’t based at DSA. Of course leisure traffic is heavily seasonal so typically there will be more flights in summer than winter.

What the airport would need to reach those targets is at least two major airlines to commit to a heavy presence at DSA. So for instance it would be entirely possible to reach 2mppa if TUI carried on as normal, easyjet opened a 3 aircraft base and Wizzair returned as before. Not only that but it would happen much quicker than ten years.

The problem is as before though, that although TUI did well by focussing their efforts on one Yorkshire airport, no other airline was prepared to replicate that. Jet2 very entrenched at LBA and EMA, easyJet didn’t seen too keen after failing to sell enough seats every time they tried to set up routes from there, and other airlines turning up with short lived bases or routes and pulling out again.

I am sure that CDC have gone to market to gauge appetite, they may even have some encouraging support in that sense, but Peel had this exact same support from industry when they were pursuing it back in 2003/4 and in the event it never really materialised. It’s easy for airlines to lend their support but it’s another thing getting them on board and signing up, something which just isn’t possible at the moment because there is no airport opco yet!

So they’re repeating the same strategy that failed before yet expecting a different result. I can’t emphasise enough just how risky this is and how foolish they are about to be with millions of tax payers £s that will divert and preclude funding for other projects that will probably be more deserving! That’s why I cannot support this at all.

 

[mpthomson]

What mpthomson said is pretty accurate. Peel said breakeven was around 2.5mppa but that was based on their model of incentivising and subsidising airlines providing they add enough seats to regain revenue from ancillaries. As we don’t know anything of substance yet we can’t judge what operating model will be adopted. CDC have a growth projection of 2mppa within 10 years so I’m not sure how they have concluded that. If it’s like Teesside it’s predicated on airline(s) basing aircraft at the airport.

Just to give you an idea of how many based aircraft would be necessary to generate 2mppa - before Wizz UK dropped their base, the initial plans for 2 based aircraft would, with the inclusion of the 4 based by TUI, have put 1.8m seats on sale for the year. This also takes into account the non based Wizzair ops and the TUI 787 routes that also weren’t based at DSA. Of course leisure traffic is heavily seasonal so typically there will be more flights in summer than winter.

What the airport would need to reach those targets is at least two major airlines to commit to a heavy presence at DSA. So for instance it would be entirely possible to reach 2mppa if TUI carried on as normal, easyjet opened a 3 aircraft base and Wizzair returned as before. Not only that but it would happen much quicker than ten years.

The problem is as before though, that although TUI did well by focussing their efforts on one Yorkshire airport, no other airline was prepared to replicate that. Jet2 very entrenched at LBA and EMA, easyJet didn’t seen too keen after failing to sell enough seats every time they tried to set up routes from there, and other airlines turning up with short lived bases or routes and pulling out again.

I am sure that CDC have gone to market to gauge appetite, they may even have some encouraging support in that sense, but Peel had this exact same support from industry when they were pursuing it back in 2003/4 and in the event it never really materialised. It’s easy for airlines to lend their support but it’s another thing getting them on board and signing up, something which just isn’t possible at the moment because there is no airport opco yet!

So they’re repeating the same strategy that failed before yet expecting a different result. I can’t emphasise enough just how risky this is and how foolish they are about to be with millions of tax payers £s that will divert and preclude funding for other projects that will probably be more deserving! That’s why I cannot support this at all.

Wish there was a like button…

As a comparison Teesside managed a whole 225000 passengers last year. From their own numbers, which they’re trumpeting as a massive increase, they’ll be at 232500 this year, although to be entirely fair to it there is a reasonably sized maintenance/ painting facility that has opened there (Flying Colours).

 

[pug1]

Wish there was a like button…

As a comparison Teesside managed a whole 225000 passengers last year. From their own numbers, which they’re trumpeting as a massive increase, they’ll be at 232500 this year, although to be entirely fair to it there is a reasonably sized maintenance/ painting facility that has opened there (Flying Colours).

To put it into perspective at its peak value Teesside was handling just over 900,000 passengers per year. However that was short lived as BMIBaby pulled out because…… Not enough passengers used the services! FlyGlobespan did a short stint there with a based 737 but they went to the wall shortly afterwards too.

If you look at the passenger figures at DSA pre Covid, you can actually see those figures fluctuated quite significantly. When the airport was purchased by Vantage (an expert international airport owner/operator) the passenger figures dropped to around 800,000 before being taken back over by Peel again in 2013 and who managed to get some immoderate increases to a peak of 1.4mppa.

The problem throughout has been attracting airlines and the airlines attracting enough passengers. When the passengers don’t support the airlines pull out leaving other airlines to not invest because they have seen what’s happened before. Even then Peel did a good job of attracting new airlines but the same thing kept happening and that’s why they were forced to close. This is the thing people refuse to believe, but it’s clear as day and like I keep saying it’s a fundamental problem that the airport suffers from and will continue to suffer from.

 

[sheff1]

As a South Yorkshire resident, Manchester is way more convenient and cost-effective to access

As another SY resident I used to fly from Manchester frequently, but the experience became more and more depressing, so nearly all my flights over the last few years have been from Heathrow or Gatwick.

Doncaster was a brilliant airport to fly from, but that was primarily due to the low passengers numbers so I wasn’t surprised when it closed.

 

[pug1]

As another SY resident I used to fly from Manchester frequently, but the experience became more and more depressing, so nearly all my flights over the last few years have been from Heathrow or Gatwick.

Doncaster was a brilliant airport to fly from, but that was primarily due to the low passengers numbers so I wasn’t surprised when it closed.

Manchester T2 is a far more pleasant experience than in the past. As they expand that and will eventually demolish T1 I highly recommend you trying it again.

 

[Nym]

Manchester T2 is a far more pleasant experience than in the past. As they expand that and will eventually demolish T1 I highly recommend you trying it again.

Given the deliberate actions of security that seem to try and make it as stressful an experience as possible, I would disagree that MAN has improved.

Combine that with this country's regional airport insistence on driving you all through World Duty Free, undersized security areas and just piss poor planning for moving around mobility impaired passengers with assistance, just pushes me into the car and/or to Heathrow.
If MAG want MAN T2 to truly 'be different' they have a long way to go, although where I am, if it's not from my local airport then it's around the same distance to get to LHR as it is to MAN so that is a bit of an influence, especially since LHR flights are around the same pricing as MAN, as is the parking etc.


Sorry...
LHR - London Heathrow
MAN - Manchester
MAG - Manchester Airports Group (Manchester, Stanstead, East Midlands)

On the topic of Doncaster, unless it can attract Air France-KLM or Lufthansa Group airlines (or their partners such as Eastern Airways from Humberside to Amsterdam), I won't be able to take it seriously as somewhere to be used. Yet another "Cattle Shuffle" for Ryanair, TUI and Jet2 to ferry as much as possible off to 'sunny' destinations at minimum price wouldn't attract me to it. (I do exist within the catchment area).
I also very much struggle to see a business case that is based on abstracting revenue from East Midlands and Leeds Bradford, nor the 'improving the attractiveness of Doncaster' to international investment or making better connections for better local economy, it would only be direct airport employment that would be of any benefit to those of Doncaster, Sheffield, Rotherham etc. Businesses don't fly on Jet2 or TUI airways to the UK, and indeed having been involved in getting technical resource to and from South Yorkshire, (from Northern Germany), they drove, as indeed I generally do when I need to visit Northern Germany for work if I can't hop onto a KLM or Lufthansa flight locally, by the time I've driven to Heathrow, checked in and gotten through to the gate, I'd be entering Belgium if I was driving.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Yet another "Cattle Shuffle" for Ryanair, TUI and Jet2 to ferry as much as possible off to 'sunny' destinations at minimum price wouldn't attract me to it. (I do exist within the catchment area).

Why would Jet2 move to DSA? LBA is their home, and they have a big presence there as well as Manchester. As do Ryanair for that matter. I can only see TUI moving to DSA.

 

[pug1]

Given the deliberate actions of security that seem to try and make it as stressful an experience as possible, I would disagree that MAN has improved.

Combine that with this country's regional airport insistence on driving you all through World Duty Free, undersized security areas and just piss poor planning for moving around mobility impaired passengers with assistance, just pushes me into the car and/or to Heathrow.
If MAG want MAN T2 to truly 'be different' they have a long way to go, although where I am, if it's not from my local airport then it's around the same distance to get to LHR as it is to MAN so that is a bit of an influence, especially since LHR flights are around the same pricing as MAN, as is the parking etc.


Sorry...
LHR - London Heathrow
MAN - Manchester
MAG - Manchester Airports Group (Manchester, Stanstead, East Midlands)

On the topic of Doncaster, unless it can attract Air France-KLM or Lufthansa Group airlines (or their partners such as Eastern Airways from Humberside to Amsterdam), I won't be able to take it seriously as somewhere to be used. Yet another "Cattle Shuffle" for Ryanair, TUI and Jet2 to ferry as much as possible off to 'sunny' destinations at minimum price wouldn't attract me to it. (I do exist within the catchment area).
I also very much struggle to see a business case that is based on abstracting revenue from East Midlands and Leeds Bradford, nor the 'improving the attractiveness of Doncaster' to international investment or making better connections for better local economy, it would only be direct airport employment that would be of any benefit to those of Doncaster, Sheffield, Rotherham etc. Businesses don't fly on Jet2 or TUI airways to the UK, and indeed having been involved in getting technical resource to and from South Yorkshire, (from Northern Germany), they drove, as indeed I generally do when I need to visit Northern Germany for work if I can't hop onto a KLM or Lufthansa flight locally, by the time I've driven to Heathrow, checked in and gotten through to the gate, I'd be entering Belgium if I was driving.

Shame you have had poor experiences at MAN, I must admit I haven’t used it much as a paying passenger recently and tend to pass through for work purposes, but I’ve seen a drastic improvement since they started the investment program, it isn’t finished yet though.

Agree regards Doncaster. They are hopeful of a hub connection. Lufthansa are unlikely because they don’t fly into airports that are below 5 million passengers per year generally, unless there is a specific market that they can exploit. KLM (Eastern) have been running the link for 50 years, Eastern are based at Humberside and as such will have reasons to stay at Humberside. I’m not sure if Doncaster Council have factored this potential drawback into their plans?

I personally hope they’re scrutinised, at the moment they have only appointed yes men to complete feasibility and viability studies, for such vast sums of public money - particularly on a proven failure - you would hope this happens before any money is granted.

 

[mpthomson]

Given the deliberate actions of security that seem to try and make it as stressful an experience as possible, I would disagree that MAN has improved.

Combine that with this country's regional airport insistence on driving you all through World Duty Free, undersized security areas and just piss poor planning for moving around mobility impaired passengers with assistance, just pushes me into the car and/or to Heathrow.
If MAG want MAN T2 to truly 'be different' they have a long way to go, although where I am, if it's not from my local airport then it's around the same distance to get to LHR as it is to MAN so that is a bit of an influence, especially since LHR flights are around the same pricing as MAN, as is the parking etc.


Sorry...
LHR - London Heathrow
MAN - Manchester
MAG - Manchester Airports Group (Manchester, Stanstead, East Midlands)

On the topic of Doncaster, unless it can attract Air France-KLM or Lufthansa Group airlines (or their partners such as Eastern Airways from Humberside to Amsterdam), I won't be able to take it seriously as somewhere to be used. Yet another "Cattle Shuffle" for Ryanair, TUI and Jet2 to ferry as much as possible off to 'sunny' destinations at minimum price wouldn't attract me to it. (I do exist within the catchment area).
I also very much struggle to see a business case that is based on abstracting revenue from East Midlands and Leeds Bradford, nor the 'improving the attractiveness of Doncaster' to international investment or making better connections for better local economy, it would only be direct airport employment that would be of any benefit to those of Doncaster, Sheffield, Rotherham etc. Businesses don't fly on Jet2 or TUI airways to the UK, and indeed having been involved in getting technical resource to and from South Yorkshire, (from Northern Germany), they drove, as indeed I generally do when I need to visit Northern Germany for work if I can't hop onto a KLM or Lufthansa flight locally, by the time I've driven to Heathrow, checked in and gotten through to the gate, I'd be entering Belgium if I was driving.

And of the 3 listed only TUI have shown the slightest interest. Jet2, who they really need to stand any chance have made it very clear that they have no interest at all.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Nov 2024 ==

Why would Jet2 move to DSA? LBA is their home, and they have a big presence there as well as Manchester. As do Ryanair for that matter. I can only see TUI moving to DSA.

They've made it very clear that they have absolutely no interest in DSA. The entire catchment population is already covered by MAN, EMA and LBA so flying from DSA offers nothing they don't already have and just increases costs.

As I've had to explain to many on the various Facebook groups dicussing this, Jet2 (and every other airline) doesnt care about the simplicity or pleasantness of people living near Doncaster's journey to an airport, just that they're prepared to make that journey, which they demonstrably are.

 

[BrianW]

And of the 3 listed only TUI have shown the slightest interest. Jet2, who they really need to stand any chance have made it very clear that they have no interest at all.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Nov 2024 ==


They've made it very clear that they have absolutely no interest in DSA. The entire catchment population is already covered by MAN, EMA and LBA so flying from DSA offers nothing they don't already have and just increases costs.

As I've had to explain to many on the various Facebook groups dicussing this, Jet2 (and every other airline) doesnt care about the simplicity or pleasantness of people living near Doncaster's journey to an airport, just that they're prepared to make that journey, which they demonstrably are.

3 reasons for rejection- location, location, location
No hinterland; too much competition; no real need

 

[pug1]

And of the 3 listed only TUI have shown the slightest interest. Jet2, who they really need to stand any chance have made it very clear that they have no interest at all.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Nov 2024 ==


They've made it very clear that they have absolutely no interest in DSA. The entire catchment population is already covered by MAN, EMA and LBA so flying from DSA offers nothing they don't already have and just increases costs.

As I've had to explain to many on the various Facebook groups dicussing this, Jet2 (and every other airline) doesnt care about the simplicity or pleasantness of people living near Doncaster's journey to an airport, just that they're prepared to make that journey, which they demonstrably are.

The only thing I would caution is that Jet2 haven’t said anything at all about DSA or the plans to reopen it either publicly or otherwise. Now that Phillip Meeson has retired they could change tac on it, because he was the one who infamously stated that they serve airports surrounded by people not fields. I’m not saying they will, and to be honest unless there’s some gaping hole in the market that I’m missing I can’t see why it would be a viable proposition now, but I would caution to say never say never.

Where it will struggle is with attracting a carrier to link it up with the hub network. There’s only Emerald (Aer Lingus) and KLM who tend to do the whole regional hub connectivity thing in the U.K. KLM have subbed out to Eastern who are based at Humberside, and Aer Lingus franchisees tried to link DSA up to DUB on two separate occasions but failed to attract enough passengers to continue. No airline will view DSA any differently to the other airports in the U.K. that are looking for a new hub connection and in many cases it would be bottom of the pecking order.

 

[mpthomson]

The only thing I would caution is that Jet2 haven’t said anything at all about DSA or the plans to reopen it either publicly or otherwise. Now that Phillip Meeson has retired they could change tac on it, because he was the one who infamously stated that they serve airports surrounded by people not fields. I’m not saying they will, and to be honest unless there’s some gaping hole in the market that I’m missing I can’t see why it would be a viable proposition now, but I would caution to say never say never.

Where it will struggle is with attracting a carrier to link it up with the hub network. There’s only Emerald (Aer Lingus) and KLM who tend to do the whole regional hub connectivity thing in the U.K. KLM have subbed out to Eastern who are based at Humberside, and Aer Lingus franchisees tried to link DSA up to DUB on two separate occasions but failed to attract enough passengers to continue. No airline will view DSA any differently to the other airports in the U.K. that are looking for a new hub connection and in many cases it would be bottom of the pecking order.

In addition there's the more recent comments about no further Jet2 expansion once Bournemouth is established, which is more damaging than Meeson's historic (but accurate) comments in reality.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Aer Lingus franchisees tried to link DSA up to DUB on two separate occasions but failed to attract enough passengers to continue.

Emerald also flies out of LBA, meaning that they have the area covered.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I’m not saying they will, and to be honest unless there’s some gaping hole in the market that I’m missing I can’t see why it would be a viable proposition now, but I would caution to say never say never.

I'd never say never either. Teesside should have been bulldozed and turned into houses years ago but it's still plodding on, propped up by a Mayor addicted to shovelling other people's money into his pet projects.

Shovel enough cash at Jet2 or Ryanair and they'll move to DSA in a heartbeat. On a smaller scale the same would apply to Emerald and Eastern and Loganair: chuck them some money and they'll run a ATR42 or ERJ145 to Heathrow or Dublin for you, fresh air and all. The problem will come when the cash runs out.

Without a big bung I don't see Jet2 moving though. They have Newcastle, Leeds, Manchester, and Liverpool (and even Liverpool is closer to the western side of West Yorkshire than DSA is) as bases.

Given the deliberate actions of security that seem to try and make it as stressful an experience as possible, I would disagree that MAN has improved.

Manchester T2 is quite a pleasant experience, even in security, to be fair. The big high ceilings and space to move helps. T1 is still a mixed bag depending on how busy it is. T3 is a sweaty fetid hellhole that's more zoo than airport and I dread every trip through the place.