A hypothetical alternative railway grouping scenario with nationwide competition

[PTR 444]

The implementation of the Big Four railway companies (SR, GWR, LMS, LNER) in 1923 was done on a geographical basis, meaning they were effectively monopolies apart from where they bordered each other.

I’m wondering if a hypothetical alternative could have been created to facilitate more nationwide competition? An easy option could have been to merge SR with LMS and GWR with LNER to create a “Big Two” and theoretically enable the entire length of the country to be travelled using just one company’s infrastructure. I’m wondering though with some more complex tinkering, whether it would have been possible for two (or more) private companies to have their own railway infrastructure reaching every major city and port in the UK.

 

[Magdalia]

The implementation of the Big Four railway companies (SR, GWR, LMS, LNER) in 1923 was done on a geographical basis, meaning they were effectively monopolies apart from where they bordered each other.

The premise is questionable. There were various "penetrating lines", most notably the Great Central Railway, which was part of the LNER. Many Midland and Northern cities had some LMS/LNER competition for passenger traffic to/from London.

GWR with LNER to create a “Big Two” and theoretically enable the entire length of the country to be travelled using just one company’s infrastructure.

The GWR and LNER did this with freight traffic routed via Woodford Halse and Banbury, without touching the LMS.

In your part of the world, you might also like to look at the Somerset and Dorset Joint Line.

 

[6Gman]

The implementation of the Big Four railway companies (SR, GWR, LMS, LNER) in 1923 was done on a geographical basis, meaning they were effectively monopolies apart from where they bordered each other.

I’m wondering if a hypothetical alternative could have been created to facilitate more nationwide competition? An easy option could have been to merge SR with LMS and GWR with LNER to create a “Big Two” and theoretically enable the entire length of the country to be travelled using just one company’s infrastructure. I’m wondering though with some more complex tinkering, whether it would have been possible for two (or more) private companies to have their own railway infrastructure reaching every major city and port in the UK.

"Every" major city and port - only by huge duplication, but ...

Birmingham, Wolverhampton, Chester, Manchester, Nottingham, Sheffield, Leicester, Exeter, Glasgow, Edinburgh (and no doubt others) had two different companies linking them to London.

 

[Irascible]

Plymouth too - which was a bigger deal when there was a decent sized Navy. Bristol, South Wales.

Alternate alternate - GWR & LNWR ( which included the L&Y by then ), Midland & GCR and argue amongst yourselves for other midlands area companies, and the SR & LNER stay mostly the same. The LNER still doesn't make any money!

 

[Sad Sprinter]

This is a similar thread I started: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...en-merged-into-the-gwr-after-grouping.255884/ In short, I proposed:

GWR/GCR merger
LSWR/Midland merger
LBSCR/SECR/Metropolitan merger
LNWR stays the same
LNER sans Great Central

 

[The exile]

Even in the 1920s and 1930s, there would have been precious few long distance passenger flows large enough to make competition really viable (as opposed to piggy-backing on intermediate flows where there was none (and which Beeching forgot). Except for the Southern, the raisin d’etre of the railways was to move stuff rather than people.

 

[PTR 444]

This is a similar thread I started: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...en-merged-into-the-gwr-after-grouping.255884/ In short, I proposed:

GWR/GCR merger
LSWR/Midland merger
LBSCR/SECR/Metropolitan merger
LNWR stays the same
LNER sans Great Central

In such a scenario, would it have made sense to split the SECR again to provide competition between the port of Dover and the rest of England? If either one of the SER or Chatham Railway was merged with the Metropolitan, then it ought to be combined with the Great Central at the other end. The other (along with LBSCR) could be combined with the Midland with a through route via what is now Thameslink.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

In such a scenario, would it have made sense to split the SECR again to provide competition between the port of Dover and the rest of England? If either one of the SER or Chatham Railway was merged with the Metropolitan, then it ought to be combined with the Great Central at the other end. The other (along with LBSCR) could be combined with the Midland with a through route via what is now Thameslink.

Sorry just saw this! I think that splitting the SECR again wouldn’t have worked well due to the economics of scale the two routes enjoyed from the merger. An SECR/Metro/GCR merger makes sense on paper but as I recall reading the Metro wasn’t interested in merging with the Great Central. Certainly an LSWR/Midland merger would have been interesting and would have created a single thread of metal from Padstow to Glasgow

 

[Class450/4DES]

Sorry just saw this! I think that splitting the SECR again wouldn’t have worked well due to the economics of scale the two routes enjoyed from the merger. An SECR/Metro/GCR merger makes sense on paper but as I recall reading the Metro wasn’t interested in merging with the Great Central. Certainly an LSWR/Midland merger would have been interesting and would have created a single thread of metal from Padstow to Glasgow

I wonder how it would effect the electrification. As it could mean the MML was 3rd rail instead of OHLE or vice versa. How could this effect BR's regions and franchising? London Midland out Waterloo instead of Euston? SWT/EMT as one identity? I also wonder if the S&DJR could of stayed as well.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I wonder how it would effect the electrification. As it could mean the MML was 3rd rail instead of OHLE or vice versa. How could this effect BR's regions and franchising? London Midland out Waterloo instead of Euston? SWT/EMT as one identity? I also wonder if the S&DJR could of stayed as well.

My best guess is that the Midland would stay unnelectrified. Maybe they might consider electrifying GOBLIN but it'll never be done. Without the Southern Railway, the LBSCR would probably still be overhead!

 

[Class450/4DES]

My best guess is that the Midland would stay unnelectrified. Maybe they might consider electrifying GOBLIN but it'll never be done. Without the Southern Railway, the LBSCR would probably still be overhead!

I see. Would the LSWR lines connect to the modern day Thameslink line into St Pancras?

 

[Sad Sprinter]

I see. Would the LSWR lines connect to the modern day Thameslink line into St Pancras?

Its doubtful, the LSWR could access the Midland via the LCDR and the Snow Hill tunnel, or the Dudding Hill line to Kew Bridge

 

[Class450/4DES]

Its doubtful, the LSWR could access the Midland via the LCDR and the Snow Hill tunnel, or the Dudding Hill line to Kew Bridge

Alright.