return of Boat Trains

[popeter45]

so looking at the southampton area on google maps to check distance from the main station to one of the cruise terminals for an upcomming cruise and realised not only to a few of the terminals still habe tracks next to them/near but the QE2 terminal still has its platform (albiet barriered off)
considering the number of people who embark/disambark at a time could these boat to London Termini trains be added again?, would need a Bi-mode but could be done with a 80x/flirt kind of unit with a dedicated luggage van to either waterloo or paddington (for better heathrow connections)

stable the trains in Southampton overnight and run to London in the morning then back to Southampton after, with late departures of some ships could fit 2-3 round trips in assuming 1:30-1:45hr single trip time

 

[Llanigraham]

Would there really be enough passengers to fill a train? You presume that they are all coming from London, when they could be coming from all over the UK.

 

[popeter45]

Would there really be enough passengers to fill a train? You presume that they are all coming from London, when they could be coming from all over the UK.

an example is Queen Anne, standard sized ship at the moment can fit 3,000 passengers on board at maximum capacity, a 5 car class 800 is 326 seats so about 10%, 3 trips is 30% which is a decent approximation of how many would be comming from or transfering via London, and thats not including using 1-1.5 carriage for Luggage, if stopping at Reading along the way can catch the Chilterns/ South Welsh Market too

could also have one set do a Longer York-Leeds-Manchester-Birmingham-Bristol-Southampton route but would be too tight to do on one Diagram i suspect

 

[TheGrew]

The bigger ships are certainly big enough but as above the problem is where are these people coming from? Many cruise lines offer coach transfers which I gather are popular with older people.

 

[Llanigraham]

an example is Queen Anne, standard sized ship at the moment can fit 3,000 passengers on board at maximum capacity, a 5 car class 800 is 326 seats so about 10%, 3 trips is 30% which is a decent approximation of how many would be comming from or transfering via London, and thats not including using 1-1.5 carriage for Luggage, if stopping at Reading along the way can catch the Chilterns/ South Welsh Market too

could also have one set do a Longer York-Leeds-Manchester-Birmingham-Bristol-Southampton route but would be too tight to do on one Diagram i suspect

Why would anyone from South Wales go all the way to London to get a boat in Southampton?
And one of our friends going on a cruise from that area had a personal door to door car provided for them by the cruise company.

 

[6Gman]

The bigger ships are certainly big enough but as above the problem is where are these people coming from? Many cruise lines offer coach transfers which I gather are popular with older people.

Also, what are these units going to be doing on days when there are no arrivals/ departures to service?

 

[12LDA28C]

Would there really be enough passengers to fill a train? You presume that they are all coming from London, when they could be coming from all over the UK.

No. This is why the Cruise Saver Express train that ran in the 2010s from Scotland to Southampton quickly became financially unviable.

 

[popeter45]

Also, what are these units going to be doing on days when there are no arrivals/ departures to service?

days without ships are very few and far between these days so not too much of an issue to have 1-2 days a month of no work

No. This is why the Cruise Saver Express train that ran in the 2010s from Scotland to Southampton quickly became financially unviable.

from what i can tell that was more a theamed first class only excursion train for cuanard only instead of a economy of scale standard service regardless of who's in port that day

 

[TheGrew]

The trouble, if you look at the port schedule for Southampton, is that it isn't even as if all ships come in on the same day with them spread around the week (berths and cruise terminal capacity quickly become the limiting factors).
Next year I am cruising from Southampton and will be driving down from Manchester as the economics of getting my family of 4 with two young children down by train is unattractive, without even considering the cases we need to travel with.
I have previously traveled down to Southampton Solo for a different cruise and did take the train and honestly, the walk from Southampton Central to the Horizon, Mayflower & City Cruise Terminals isn't too bad. The Ocean Cruise terminal is a bit further but can also be reached at least in part by taking the shuttle bus connecting the station and the Red Funnel terminal and walking from there. The QE2 terminal is the biggest pain of them to get to but even that is only a short taxi ride.

Admittedly I say this as someone who grew up in the Southampton area so know the city rather well but I just don't see the demand.

 

[Indigo Soup]

No. This is why the Cruise Saver Express train that ran in the 2010s from Scotland to Southampton quickly became financially unviable.

My parents are frequent cruisers. They used to fly to the Caribbean on a dedicated charter from a regional airport, and are now having to go to London to catch a scheduled airline because P&O have removed the flight they used.

Notably, this is despite P&O reliably filling the aircraft from the regional airport in question. The economics of dedicated services for cruises, or similar traffic, are really shaky.

It strikes me that if there's a market there, a better way to exploit it is running XC services to Southampton in a way that's attractive to cruise passengers. Which probably means plenty of luggage capacity, an attractive First Class offering, and reasonably brisk timings. All of which is to say, run it like an intercity service.

If an appreciable number of passengers arrive by train in this way, it starts making sense for the cruise operators to consider running shuttles from the station direct to the terminal. Or at least lobby the local authority to put in a pleasant walking route - the distance from the station to the City cruise terminal is comparable to the distance from the entrance to the gate at larger airports!

 

[Dr Hoo]

As a former local BR manager who has worked with ‘boat trains’ at Southampton Docks, can @popeter45 clarify how a dedicated train ‘to the quayside’ would work with multiple sites? E.g. a run to the QE terminal with some passengers and luggage bound for one of the berths further west.
I am also not quite clear how five carriages of seating also works with a ‘luggage van’ in a fixed formation train. Presumably this would be a new build of a small batch of bespoke trains (a bit like Lumo)? Presumably ‘tri-mode’ - third rail, 25kV ac, and diesel or battery.
Would ideally need a relatively dedicated loading platform at Waterloo, Paddington or wherever, suitable/handy for easy road/taxi access, luggage trolleys, assistance buggies and so on.

 

[popeter45]

As a former local BR manager who has worked with ‘boat trains’ at Southampton Docks, can @popeter45 clarify how a dedicated train ‘to the quayside’ would work with multiple sites? E.g. a run to the QE terminal with some passengers and luggage bound for one of the berths further west.
I am also not quite clear how five carriages of seating also works with a ‘luggage van’ in a fixed formation train. Presumably this would be a new build of a small batch of bespoke trains (a bit like Lumo)? Presumably ‘tri-mode’ - third rail, 25kV ac, and diesel or battery.
Would ideally need a relatively dedicated loading platform at Waterloo, Paddington or wherever, suitable/handy for easy road/taxi access, luggage trolleys, assistance buggies and so on.

For 2 boat in running in a pair until a intermediate station would work their

And what I mean by luggage car is use one of the 5 carriages for it akin to the class 460’s with 4 carriages for passengers

And for platforms many work at Paddington such as platform 1 or platform 8

 

[Dr Hoo]

Clarification acknowledged, thanks.

 

[12LDA28C]

For 2 boat in running in a pair until a intermediate station would work their

And what I mean by luggage car is use one of the 5 carriages for it akin to the class 460’s with 4 carriages for passengers

And for platforms many work at Paddington such as platform 1 or platform 8

So where would this stock come from and who would pay for it, especially taking into account it would be serving such a niche market?

 

[HSTEd]

I can't see there is any practical way to serve such dispersed traffic, other than by growing the railway such that it becomes a rounding error.

 

[popeter45]

So where would this stock come from and who would pay for it, especially taking into account it would be serving such a niche market?

short term while testing viability could hire in some unused stock such as the GWR 769's with seats removed from one of the Driving carriages accepting the time loss on the GWML with a longer term idea of dedicated stock such as a 80X order

I can't see there is any practical way to serve such dispersed traffic, other than by growing the railway such that it becomes a rounding error.

thats why the focus was on London, enough people pass thru it already connecting that a dedicated service for the last bit makes more sence than a wide basket collection

 

[30907]

Previous related thread here:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...om-southampton-central-be-appreciated.267870/