Introduction of European Entry-Exit Scheme (EES)

[Chester1]

They could just continue to stamp out for the first 6 months.

It will be interesting to find what the phased introduction will look like. Maybe it's being considered.

 

[kkong]

I think he means what happens with 90 day calculation because he could appear to EES has having been in schengen for an unknown period of time. I would guess that if you first use EES on exiting Schengen then it won't flag you has having potentially overstayed.

It would seem obvious that if you are already inside Schengen when EES comes into force, then when you reach the exit border crossing, the officer will read the date of entry from your passport stamp and enter that into EES as well.

This seems a very simple solution which will have been allowed for in the EES design.

Or am I missing some other concern?

And just to clear up any confusion (the OP mentioned entering / leaving "the EU"). The EES applies to the Schengen area, not the EU.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Oct 2024 ==

They could just continue to stamp out for the first 6 months.

Please see my post #84.

It is explicitly stated that passports will not be stamped.

 

[alholmes]

It would seem obvious that if you are already inside Schengen when EES comes into force, then when you reach the exit border crossing, the officer will read the date of entry from your passport stamp and enter that into EES as well.

I hope not - that would just be another cause of delay. I enter and exit Schengen every month, and I struggle to find some of the stamps in my passport. I’d wager it’ll just be recorded as an initial exit on EES with no attempt to verify how long the stay was for.

Realistically, how often has a passport control officer attempted to work out how many days has someone been in Schengen in the last six months? In my experience at the various airports I’ve entered it’s never been attempted.

 

[MrJeeves]

Realistically, how often has a passport control officer attempted to work out how many days has someone been in Schengen in the last six months? In my experience at the various airports I’ve entered it’s never been attempted.

My dad has had it happen on entry to Denmark many times, but amusingly they suggested downloading an app to "track" it yourself and have always been happy with being shown whatever number of days that app says instead of flicking through the passport...

Not rife for abuse at all!

 

[kkong]

I hope not - that would just be another cause of delay.

It would only happen once per person, ever.

And the people who are

1. subject to the EES
2. already inside Schengen when the EES comes into operation

will be a very small subset of all passengers crossing the border.

 

[MrJeeves]

It is only going to happen once per person, ever.

...and a very small group of people that it affects, too!

 

[alholmes]

My dad has had it happen on entry to Denmark many times, but amusingly they suggested downloading an app to "track" it yourself and have always been happy with being shown whatever number of days that app says instead of flicking through the passport...

Not rife for abuse at all!

It’s a step up from my excel spreadsheet which records my days.

Ironically, when I travelled to Denmark a couple of years ago I was asked for purpose of visit and number of days I was staying - don’t think I’d ever been asked those questions in Europe before. I just said that the purpose was to go to a wedding, which was perfectly true. Decided not to say that it was my own wedding as I thought that may result in more questions, though thinking about it now it might have just been congratulations. He still didn’t go through the pages of my passport trying to count my previous Schengen visits.

 

[zero]

Well I hope the delays are because they are ensuring it works perfectly for all travellers at all ports of entry from the date of implementation.

 

[The exile]

I hope not - that would just be another cause of delay. I enter and exit Schengen every month, and I struggle to find some of the stamps in my passport. I’d wager it’ll just be recorded as an initial exit on EES with no attempt to verify how long the stay was for.

Realistically, how often has a passport control officer attempted to work out how many days has someone been in Schengen in the last six months? In my experience at the various airports I’ve entered it’s never been attempted.

I’ve had to explain to both German and Czech border control why an entry into Italy is apparently accompanied by no exit stamp. (The corresponding stamp is 2 or 3 pages on, in the bottom left corner - so exactly where their thumb is - and so faint that only the date can be read, not the country or point of departure). Fortunately a June 2023 event is now less likely to attract immediate interest.

 

[Doppelganger]

Fortunately a June 2023 event is now less likely to attract immediate interest.

It's well out side the 180 day horizon, so this shouldn't interest them at all.

 

[MrJeeves]

I decided to email the EU.

Thank you for contacting the Europe Direct Contact Centre.

It is important to note that while the Entry/Exit System (EES) is expected to become operational in the second half of 2024, there currently is no official start date.

Should you enter the countries using the EES before it becomes operational and leave after, then your passport will not be stamped on exit. Instead, the border guard will create a new file for you in the EES that will note the day you entered (based on the entry stamp you received) and your date of exit.

 

[Chester1]

That seems a very sensible solution.

 

[Howardh]

I think he means what happens with 90 day calculation because he could appear to EES has having been in schengen for an unknown period of time. I would guess that if you first use EES on exiting Schengen then it won't flag you has having potentially overstayed.

If you have already been in Schengen for the full 90 days and the 180 isn't up - and somehow you find yourself diverted to Malaga en route to Gibraltar (assuming Gib doesn't join Schengen) then in theory the Spanish have every right to deny you passage to Gibraltar via Malaga, and you would have to return back to the UK. Whether or not you would be considered to be committing a Schengen border offence by trying to enter Spain when you have no other option is another matter!

But wouldn't the simplest solution be, in the event of a diversions, all pax are given a 24-hr emergency visa which expires the minute you leave Schengen? There are emergency visas on humanitarian grounds (eg death of a family member) I understand, so an emergency travel visa isn't particularly special?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Nov 2024 ==

Realistically, how often has a passport control officer attempted to work out how many days has someone been in Schengen in the last six months? In my experience at the various airports I’ve entered it’s never been attempted.

In my trips - never! Good luck to any official trying to work out my entry/exit days, my pages are over half-filled and the entry/exit stamps are all over the place (mainly thanks to Malaga who just stamp randomly) and what happens if you genuinely (or deliberately) lose your passport with all those stamps on, is there an electronic record of you entering/leaving?? Or is that a way round the 90-day rule??!

 

[ainsworth74]

Realistically, how often has a passport control officer attempted to work out how many days has someone been in Schengen in the last six months? In my experience at the various airports I’ve entered it’s never been attempted.

I've had it done to me on a cursory basis when leaving. I was flying out of Riga and they were flipping through the pages pausing and I mistakenly thought they were looking for my entry stamp. I'd arrived in Warsaw not Riga so thought they might have got confused that they couldn't find a Riga entry stamp (I had that once in Nuremburg airport the border guard asked me where I arrived as they couldn't find an entry stamp for Nuremburg, and when I said Prague asked why I was flying back from Nuremburg, out of curiosity I think mostly!). When I mentioned that they said "That's fine, but I'm just checking your stamps to see how long you've been in the EU". But it was cursory, they clearly weren't doing any serious maths beyond eyeballing the stamps and quickly concluding I was way under the limit.

Ironically, when I travelled to Denmark a couple of years ago I was asked for purpose of visit and number of days I was staying - don’t think I’d ever been asked those questions in Europe before. I just said that the purpose was to go to a wedding, which was perfectly true

Perhaps a Nordic thing? I got asked in Helsinki the purpose of my stay ("Tourism"), how long I was staying ("Just a long weekend, flying back on Monday"), and where I was going ("One night in Helsinki, then to Tallin for a few days").

 

[Howardh]

Perhaps a Nordic thing? I got asked in Helsinki the purpose of my stay ("Tourism"), how long I was staying ("Just a long weekend, flying back on Monday"), and where I was going ("One night in Helsinki, then to Tallin for a few days").

I can't ever recall being asked where I was going/staying etc; but if you have to provide that information in future it will mess up (a) day trips and (b) youth hostelling/camping where - as was my case when younger - you would simply fly or ferry out and really have no idea where your first night would be. Once I left the UK and had no idea where I was going, and ended up mu first night in a YH in Wiltz, Luxembourg!

But I can't see the EU denying us a day trip if we can't provide details of an overnight stay - they would be shooting themselves in both feet financially BUT the same must apply to us when they come here for a day trip at the shops/football/castles etc.

Makes me wonder why, despite Brexit, we couldn't immediately come to a bi-lateral understanding r/e tourism between the two. But look at who was in charge and what happened...

 

[Chester1]

I can't ever recall being asked where I was going/staying etc; but if you have to provide that information in future it will mess up (a) day trips and (b) youth hostelling/camping where - as was my case when younger - you would simply fly or ferry out and really have no idea where your first night would be. Once I left the UK and had no idea where I was going, and ended up mu first night in a YH in Wiltz, Luxembourg!

But I can't see the EU denying us a day trip if we can't provide details of an overnight stay - they would be shooting themselves in both feet financially BUT the same must apply to us when they come here for a day trip at the shops/football/castles etc.

Makes me wonder why, despite Brexit, we couldn't immediately come to a bi-lateral understanding r/e tourism between the two. But look at who was in charge and what happened...

I doubt the position on visitors will change. Their appears to be a popular assumption that the EU will be more amenable to Labour government because they are not ideologically hostile. It will probably make a bit of a difference but not much. The false hope shows a lot of British Europhiles don't fully understand the EU either. The EUs legalise and strictness both internally and externally is a feature not a bug. It's necessary for a union of 27 members to function.

Our culture is a bit different. There was a brilliant anecdote on RTE (Irish BBC) podcast Brexit Republic that summarises the culture clash. Soon after the referendum a Irish diplomat met with a senior member of the European Commission and raised concerns about the common travel area. The EU Official suggested a working party be setup to go through the treaty and to identify the problems. He was incredulous when he was informed there was no CTA treaty, just a series of unwritten gentleman's agreements that sort of aligned bits of law and policy. The idea of a common travel area lasting for a century without being underpinned in international law was shocking. Any fixes to border problems with ESS have to fit in with the rest of EU law and policy (no "cherry picking").

 

[ainsworth74]

Our culture is a bit different. There was a brilliant anecdote on RTE (Irish BBC) podcast Brexit Republic that summarises the culture clash. Soon after the referendum a Irish diplomat met with a senior member of the European Commission and raised concerns about the common travel area. The EU Official suggested a working party be setup to go through the treaty and to identify the problems. He was incredulous when he was informed there was no CTA treaty, just a series of unwritten gentleman's agreements that sort of aligned bits of law and policy. The idea of a common travel area lasting for a century without being underpinned in international law was shocking. Any fixes to border problems with ESS have to fit in with the rest of EU law and policy (no "cherry picking").

It's not completely unwritten as we did sign a memorandum of understanding in May 2019 which did enumerate the rights and privileges we enjoy under the CTA. But that was, I believe, the first time anyone had really written them down almost a hundred years after it became a thing and certainly isn't the same as a formal treaty! Lot easier to fiddle (or ignore) a memo than a proper international agreement. But I can see how even that would be a massive culture clash to the EU way of doing things

 

[Chester1]

It's not completely unwritten as we did sign a memorandum of understanding in May 2019 which did enumerate the rights and privileges we enjoy under the CTA. But that was, I believe, the first time anyone had really written them down almost a hundred years after it became a thing and certainly isn't the same as a formal treaty! Lot easier to fiddle (or ignore) a memo than a proper international agreement. But I can see how even that would be a massive culture clash to the EU way of doing things

The meeting apparently happened a few days or weeks after the referendum therefore before the memorandum of understanding. If I remember correctly, it is only 4 pages long! Its a post card compared with EU law. The EUs ability to do single topic side deals with non member states is very limited.

I would like to see a deal were UK citizens are subject to EES but not ETIAS and we carve out the equivalent parts from UK ETA for EU citizens. I think its unlikely despite the political and economic sense because it would be special treatment of one "third country".

 

[ainsworth74]

The meeting apparently happened a few days or weeks after the referendum therefore before the memorandum of understanding. If I remember correctly, it is only 4 pages long! Its a post card compared with EU law. The EUs ability to do single topic side deals with non member states is very limited.

Ah fair doos! In that case it would be totally accurate to say it was all down to gentleman's agreements. You're quite right as well it is only four pages and in reality the "meat" (i.e. the rights granted) only cover a page the rest is preamble and a bit on oversight!

Memorandum of Understanding between the UK and Ireland on the CTA

The UK and Irish governments signed a Memorandum of Understanding reaffirming their commitment to the Common Travel Area.

www.gov.uk

Shame that not all deals can be so short and simple

I would like to see a deal were UK citizens are subject to EES but not ETIAS and we carve out the equivalent parts from UK ETA for EU citizens. I think its unlikely despite the political and economic sense because it would be special treatment of one "third country".

Agreed that wouldn't be a terrible compromise in the current situation but unlikely.

 

[zero]

But I can't see the EU denying us a day trip if we can't provide details of an overnight stay - they would be shooting themselves in both feet financially BUT the same must apply to us when they come here for a day trip at the shops/football/castles etc.

The UK doesn't want to have enough border agents to question all visitors, hence allowing the majority of people to use e-gates without reciprocity.

Canadians and Americans are exempt from each others' ETA schemes even though the the balance of power is similarly asymmetrical to UK/EU, so in theory it's possible but I don't really see it being a priority for the Labour govt?

The EU likes formal written rules. Generalising, the culture clash is that the UK likes to comply with rules whereas some EU countries selectively comply with what they want to and don't really suffer for it.

 

[Chester1]

The UK doesn't want to have enough border agents to question all visitors, hence allowing the majority of people to use e-gates without reciprocity.

Canadians and Americans are exempt from each others' ETA schemes even though the the balance of power is similarly asymmetrical to UK/EU, so in theory it's possible but I don't really see it being a priority for the Labour govt?

The EU likes formal written rules. Generalising, the culture clash is that the UK likes to comply with rules whereas some EU countries selectively comply with what they want to and don't really suffer for it.

The EU is different to the US. The US doesn't have to keep a distinction between members and third countries because its states are not sovereign. I think the new government would like to have Brits exempted from ETIAS and change 90 out 180 day rule to 180 out of 360. They would both be demonstrations to voters that they can get practical benefits from working with but outside of the EU.

The Canada - US relationship is more asymmetric than UK - EU. The economic gap is about twice as large and the Americans are a net security provider to the Canadians but the UK is a net security provider to the EU (or more accurately its members). There are deals to be done but the main limitation is what the EU can offer to a third country rather than what the EU wants from the UK. I think that's why Labour has continued to refuse to discuss a youth mobility agreement. They know the EU can't offer much in return on mobility and travel because we are a third country.

 

[zero]

I think the new government would like to have Brits exempted from ETIAS and change 90 out 180 day rule to 180 out of 360. They would both be demonstrations to voters that they can get practical benefits from working with but outside of the EU.

I would like that too but is there any evidence it is being actively discussed?

Potential exemption from ETIAS has been mentioned on various forums/social media but nowhere "official" from what I can find.

 

[Howardh]

I would like that too but is there any evidence it is being actively discussed?

Potential exemption from ETIAS has been mentioned on various forums/social media but nowhere "official" from what I can find.

Think it's more a case of places like Portugal wanting to have our pensioners staying there the whole winter, especially those that don't have enough income for a full visa but plenty enough to live on and boost their economy?

 

[Chester1]

I would like that too but is there any evidence it is being actively discussed?

Potential exemption from ETIAS has been mentioned on various forums/social media but nowhere "official" from what I can find.

Unfortunately not and I think it's because Labour knows that the EU can't really budge on these issues so it's largely trying to avoid anything on travel mobility.

Think it's more a case of places like Portugal wanting to have our pensioners staying there the whole winter, especially those that don't have enough income for a full visa but plenty enough to live on and boost their economy?

There are options to do this without changing the 90/180 rule. There are national visas in most popular EU countries for longer stays (without right to work). There is more administration involved post brexit but countries generally welcome foreiegn pensioners spending their pensions. Even for full time residency Portugal has a very low income requirement for pensioners (more or less our state pension). Spain is the only EU country that has deliberately priced out all but affluent pensioners because they have to many live there already. A Brit with a state pension and a very modest private pension can get visas in many warm countries in Europe.

 

[johncrossley]

There are options to do this without changing the 90/180 rule. There are national visas in most popular EU countries for longer stays (without right to work). There is more administration involved post brexit but countries generally welcome foreiegn pensioners spending their pensions. Even for full time residency Portugal has a very low income requirement for pensioners (more or less our state pension). Spain is the only EU country that has deliberately priced out all but affluent pensioners because they have to many live there already. A Brit with a state pension and a very modest private pension can get visas in many warm countries in Europe.

Aren't they required to have private health insurance? Pensioners with pre-existing health conditions will find that prohibitively expensive, if they can get covered at all.

 

[Chester1]

Aren't they required to have private health insurance? Pensioners with pre-existing health conditions will find that prohibitively expensive, if they can get covered at all.

Visits continue to be covered by the reciprocal health care agreement. Rights of residents vary between countries. People are still retiring to the med both part and full time.

 

[signed]

being the spouse of an EU citizen doesn't grant you visa free travel in Schengen

It does, Schengen is pretty much irrelevant, it's much more painful procedurally though.

If the EU/EEA/Switzerland spouse exercises their freedom of movement right to a country of which they aren't a citizen, it extends to 3rd country spouse and unmarried under-21 childrens.

If the non-EU spouse doesn't hold a visa but is travelling together with the EU spouse and has positive proof of relationship (a marriage certificate would usually be the wanted proof), a visa will be issued on the spot and they will be allowed in. Note that it's probably a very obscure and quite risky to tempt it (border guards can do anything and make that a living hell), but in case of an emergency it's probably a way to try


The Schengen Borders Code :

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2016/399/oj

5. By way of derogation from paragraph 1:

(b)

third-country nationals who fulfil the conditions laid down in paragraph 1, except for that laid down in point (b), and who present themselves at the border may be authorised to enter the territory of the Member States, if a visa is issued at the border in accordance with Articles 35 and 36 of Regulation (EC) No 810/2009 of the European Parliament and of the Council (26).

The Border Guards Handbook (¶2.8) reiterates (emphasis mine)

https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/system/files/2022-11/Practical%20handbook%20for%20border%20guards_en.pdf

However, if a person enjoying the right of free movement under Union law does not
have the necessary travel documents or, if required, the necessary visas, the Schengen
State concerned must, before turning him/her back, give such person every reasonable
opportunity to obtain the necessary documents or have them brought to him/her within a
reasonable period of time or corroborate or prove by other means that he/she is covered
by the right of free movement under Union law.

 

[mad_rich]

Perhaps a Nordic thing? I got asked in Helsinki the purpose of my stay ("Tourism"), how long I was staying ("Just a long weekend, flying back on Monday"), and where I was going ("One night in Helsinki, then to Tallin for a few days").

Yeah, I had the same questions at Helsinki airport, including showing proof of my hotel. I was a little worried, since I didn't have firm plans for where I was going and how long I was staying, nor did I have a return ticket! But he seemed happy enough when I said I would probably work my way back to Brussels and get the Eurostar.

I also had similar questions in Zurich. Proof of hotel required.

And, just yesterday, a thorough examination of my passport and stamps flying out of Krakow.

My Excel spreadsheet is a thing of beauty!, and shows me what date each trip is wiped off the slate.

 

[Chester1]

It does, Schengen is pretty much irrelevant, it's much more painful procedurally though.

If the EU/EEA/Switzerland spouse exercises their freedom of movement right to a country of which they aren't a citizen, it extends to 3rd country spouse and unmarried under-21 childrens.

If the non-EU spouse doesn't hold a visa but is travelling together with the EU spouse and has positive proof of relationship (a marriage certificate would usually be the wanted proof), a visa will be issued on the spot and they will be allowed in. Note that it's probably a very obscure and quite risky to tempt it (border guards can do anything and make that a living hell), but in case of an emergency it's probably a way to try


The Schengen Borders Code :

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2016/399/oj

The Border Guards Handbook (¶2.8) reiterates (emphasis mine)

https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/system/files/2022-11/Practical%20handbook%20for%20border%20guards_en.pdf

That's not visa free travel for spouses of EU citizens. It's a visa on arrival. That is more convenient but it's not automatic entry rights.

I would like to see that tested by someone with no Euros or accommodation in Spain. Only very well informed EU citizens would be carrying their marriage certificate on a trip to Gibraltar too. That regulation appears to be visa on arrival for pre planned trips by spouses of EU citizens, transferring their visa from pre travel to arrival.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Nov 2024 ==

With recent incidents all weather affected Gibraltar flights may well be diverted to Portugal or Morocco making the passport of passengers irrelevant. Recent banning of British Citizens from getting off plane in Malaga can't be repeated. If they are then the airports suggested earlier in the thread will be used. Faro is already allowed but it's rarely used because it means passengers being stuck there until weather conditions in Gibraltar change (its 8 hours by coach). It's not commercially or politically viable to have most passengers and the plane returned to the UK.

 

[Belperpete]

I had an interesting experience at Schiphol recently. With a four hour wait for my connecting flight, I decided to exit airside in order to do some shopping on the landward side. Of course, that meant I had to go back through security when I had finished. My combined (two flight) boarding pass issued at Stuttgart airport worked the scanner at Schiphol okay, and no problems with the bag search. But then I was presented with a choice: turn left for these gates, or right for those. I had no idea which gate my flight would be leaving from, so eanie meanie I picked one and walked through. Looking behind me, I discovered that I had just bypassed passport control! I decided that this was probably not a good idea, so back tracked, chose the other option and got my passport stamped. But it did seem remarkably easy to avoid it.