• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

The Labour Party under Andy Burnham

takno

Verified Rep - Traksy
Joined
9 Jul 2016
Messages
6,592
Thanks, valid points. I certainly remember the situation outlined in your second paragraph - the name Dame Shirley Porter springs up in my memory, but I'm not sure whether this was the same scandal.

Don't forget that, in the 'Shires, there are small towns which have many social problems, they're not just limited to the conurbations. Receive less media coverage because each one affects fewer people.

It does seem that the majority of councils going 'bust' are in the 'shire' counties, though.
Shirley Porter was Westminster. The two councils with the dodgiest setups were Westminster and Wandsworth.

I don't discount the issues of smaller towns and cities, being from one myself. In practice I think the key problem in local councils is that we're so far beyond what's "fair" and at a point where no council can afford to provide the vital services, let alone do a lot of the things like trading standards which are less visible but have a huge impact on people's lives.

In terms of bankruptcies, you've got councils like Croydon and Birmingham as well as shires. Some of them have resulted from the poor investment decisions they were encouraged by government to make, some directly by the overwhelming cost of services. Then there are ones like Birmingham where there are troubling signs that the government induced a crisis to force a sell off of important public assets, either for political reasons or worse, and very much to the long term detriment of residents.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Acfb

Member
Joined
12 Aug 2018
Messages
616
Shirley Porter was Westminster. The two councils with the dodgiest setups were Westminster and Wandsworth.

I don't discount the issues of smaller towns and cities, being from one myself. In practice I think the key problem in local councils is that we're so far beyond what's "fair" and at a point where no council can afford to provide the vital services, let alone do a lot of the things like trading standards which are less visible but have a huge impact on people's lives.

In terms of bankruptcies, you've got councils like Croydon and Birmingham as well as shires. Some of them have resulted from the poor investment decisions they were encouraged by government to make, some directly by the overwhelming cost of services. Then there are ones like Birmingham where there are troubling signs that the government induced a crisis to force a sell off of important public assets, either for political reasons or worse, and very much to the long term detriment of residents.
I don't think it's a strictly partisan thing. That said I would argue the worst examples are ones like Woking and Thurrock where they were engaged in explicitly dodgy business practices.
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
31,100
Location
Redcar
My understanding (and I am open to correction) is that a council decides upon its expenditure and then calculates how much each property tax payer, banded, needs to pay to cover this..

I pay a much higher P.T. than someone with the same valuation band in London (and Buckingham Palace!); but if all the properties there had the bands increased - perhaps with new higher bands introduced - a specific house would still receive the same property tax bill after the re-evaluation as before (obviously assuming that the London increases were in proportion to each other) because it's the same amount of money that has to be raised. Banding sets out the proportion of the cost, not an absolute figure.
You of course assume that bands would be shifted by a considerable margin rather than just revaluing the properties themselves and then allocating them to their new bands. An easy way to raise quite a lot of revenue would be to just fiddle with the bands slightly. In Middlesbrough there's a huge number of properties that are currently Band A (to the point it's unusual to see anything above Band A!) that on their current valuation would be Band D or even E. In Middlesbrough Band A attracts an annual charge of £1,579.30 whilst Band E is £2,895.39.

Now I don't actually think that any Government could get away with doing it that way. If you revalued you'd have to do something with the band as well. I could well see that Band A would end up encompassing properties which are currently in Bands A - D for instance. But I think it's unwise to assume that the Bands themselves would move lock step with the wider revaluation of properties themselves.

I'm not sure how many people have actually looked at what the bands but for interest here they are (for England, they're close but slightly different in Wales whilst quite a lot different in Scotland. In Northern Ireland they're still using Rates rather than Council Tax!):

Property valuation as of 1 April 1991 and corresponding Council Tax band
Valuation BandProperty valuation on 1 April 1991Proportion of Band D
AUp to and including £40,0006/9ths
B£40,001 to £52,0007/9ths
C£52,001 to £68,0008/9ths
D£68,001 to £88,0009/9ths
E£88,001 to £120,00011/9ths
F£120,001 to £ 160,00013/9ths
G£160,001 to £320,000
15/9ths
HMore than £320,00018/9ths
(Via my local council: https://www.redcar-cleveland.gov.uk/council-tax/council-tax-bands)

People may like to compare what band their property is currently in versus where it would be if revalued without the bands being changed!

I don't discount the issues of smaller towns and cities, being from one myself. In practice I think the key problem in local councils is that we're so far beyond what's "fair" and at a point where no council can afford to provide the vital services, let alone do a lot of the things like trading standards which are less visible but have a huge impact on people's lives.

Quite. The reality is that the entire structure and funding formula for Local Government is completely broken. To a great extent Local Government has become a commissioner (and/or provider though it varies) of social care services (adult and childrens) that happens to have bin collections, pothole maintenance and homelessness prevention tagged on. The later (homelessness prevention) is itself a great driver of the bankruptcy that is facing Local Government with the cost of temporary accommodation rising to £2.2bn last financial year:

Local authorities in England are spending a record £2.29bn a year on providing emergency temporary accommodation to homeless households, according to new provisional government figures released today (Thursday 29th August).

The figures also show:

  • Councils spent £2.29bn on temporary accommodation from April 2023 to March 2024.
  • The amount spent on temporary accommodation has increased by 29% from £1.77bn the previous year.
  • Half of this total spend (£1.34bn) was on nightly paid accommodation and bed and breakfasts – the least suitable form of temporary accommodation. The amount spent on this form of accommodation has increased by 55% on the previous year.
These figures come as data released earlier this month showed that a record 117,450 households were being forced to live in temporary accommodation as of March 2024, a 12% increase on the previous year.

In reality Local Government requires fundamental reform both structurally and financially. On the structure it's bonkers that we have such a patchwork where some areas have a unitary authority, others have parish councils under a unitary authority some even have parish councils, district councils and then a county council on top. Plus some now have combined authorities which sit on top of the existing melange of authorities with their own powers. Then of course you have the Police and Crime Commissioners sat as another level (sometimes subsumed into the Combined Authority but not always), as well as the territorial police and fire services which don't always match the local authority structures (we have a Cleveland Police and a Cleveland Fire Brigade, we've not had a Cleveland County since the mid-1990s...).

Then there's the financial constraints that they now operate under as well. Whilst officially they have Council Tax to raise the money they need to deliver their services in reality this is a fiction. The actual ability to raise Council Tax is tightly proscribed meaning that there's little they can do to use it as a mechanism to increase revenue leaving them wholly reliant on Central Government to actually make the books balance. Meanwhile the things they they have a statutory duty to provide they have precious little influence over how much these cost (How can one council resolve the housing crisis which is driven the costs of temporary accommodation? Or accommodate the increasingly elderly population that requires more social care?) so just have to absorb, somehow, these costs. Plus when the Government does decide to provide them additional help it's always in the form, these days, of "pots" of funding that they have to compete Hunger Games style for wasting even more time and money on bidding for funding which they may not even get in the end anyway.

That's before we even get into, going back to structure, the horrific democratic deficit that exists within Local Government as unless your local elections lines up with a general election no one actually votes, and that the councillors that are elected are basically doing it part time as most allowances are not much at all (at my council the basic payment is £10k with the leader getting an extra £22k, £32k to be the democratic leader of an organisation with a budget of around £125m).

The whole of Local Government is in catastrophic need of reform, it should also be very urgent because of course for many people their main interaction with the state is via Local Government.
 

Merle Haggard

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2019
Messages
3,936
Location
Northampton
You of course assume that bands would be shifted by a considerable margin rather than just revaluing the properties themselves and then allocating them to their new bands. An easy way to raise quite a lot of revenue would be to just fiddle with the bands slightly. In Middlesbrough there's a huge number of properties that are currently Band A (to the point it's unusual to see anything above Band A!) that on their current valuation would be Band D or even E. In Middlesbrough Band A attracts an annual charge of £1,579.30 whilst Band E is £2,895.39.


I didn't, actually; by allocating the current value of property to the current band values, and having a lot more bands at the top to produce a fairer increase of tax in proportion to increases in value was what I implied.

My basic point is illustrated by your example of Middlesbrough; if a lot of Band A properties were revalued and came into Band D then, to produce the same income for the council, then the tax for band D would reduce - to probably not much above the present Band A, if it produces a re-evaluation of almost all Band A properties to Band D.

My point in italics is based on the present situation where the Council budget is used to calculate the tax in each band, not the other way round. If you do otherwise, i.e. keep the present tax rate for each band, that would drastically increase the tax income for the Council (not saying that's a bad thing) but it then becomes an arbitrary charge, because it's based on Council income requirements at one fixed point of time in the past, in a different situation and can never change, and, more importantly, the tax for the same band would vary from council to council in a similarly arbitrary fashion. That's difficult to overcome, because if every property were re-valued and allocated against a banding that does stop st the present, now comparatively low, level what how would the tax for each band be calculated?

If there was a standard tax across the country for each band that would mean that councils with a lot of high value houses received the windfall of a higher tax income, whereas other councils, with a majority of low band housing, might become insolvent.

The only outcome of re-valuing property to change bands would be to identify streets or areas within a Council which have moved from having a low valuation (by comparison with the whole Council area) when originally surveyed to one having a similarly high one now - or vice-versa. And the gains from increased band values would be equalled by the losses from the reverse.

Quite difficult!
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
31,100
Location
Redcar
I didn't, actually; by allocating the current value of property to the current band values, and having a lot more bands at the top to produce a fairer increase of tax in proportion to increases in value was what I implied.

My basic point is illustrated by your example of Middlesbrough; if a lot of Band A properties were revalued and came into Band D then, to produce the same income for the council, then the tax for band D would reduce - to probably not much above the present Band A, if it produces a re-evaluation of almost all Band A properties to Band D.

My point in italics is based on the present situation where the Council budget is used to calculate the tax in each band, not the other way round.
Yes that's fair on reflection I'd sort of skipped a step there! I blame distraction of colleagues ringing me when I'm on a break from work and breaking my train of thought ;)

Quite difficult!
Absolutely, personally I think Council Tax needs to be chucked in the bin along with a wider reform of Local Government in general!
 

Merle Haggard

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2019
Messages
3,936
Location
Northampton
Yes that's fair on reflection I'd sort of skipped a step there! I blame distraction of colleagues ringing me when I'm on a break from work and breaking my train of thought ;)


Absolutely, personally I think Council Tax needs to be chucked in the bin along with a wider reform of Local Government in general!

Yes, I can see trying to connect local expenditure (and local government) with taxes raised locally is a sound idea, but it's already been overwhelmed by the direct grant from the Government. Bit like National Insurance, which has pretty much lost most of the connection with the original intention. But raising the same amount from other taxes (e.g. income tax) might not be popular for a Government to put it mildly .
 

Cloud Strife

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2014
Messages
2,964
Absolutely, personally I think Council Tax needs to be chucked in the bin along with a wider reform of Local Government in general!

Indeed, the most sensible thing would be to simply introduce a municipal income tax. Having said that, English local government is frankly a complete mess, and it would make sense to rip it all up and start again. England could easily have a two tier system of local governance, where regional authorities would take responsibility for policing, social care, etc, while local councils would look after schools, libraries and so on.
 

londonbridge

Established Member
Joined
30 Jun 2010
Messages
1,885
Two Scottish pensioners have been given permission to bring legal action against the government over the removal of the winter fuel allowance:


Two Scottish pensioners have been given permission to proceed with their legal challenge against the UK and Scottish governments’ decision to cut the winter fuel payment.

The decision by the Court of Session means the challenge, brought by Peter and Florence Fanning, of Coatbridge, North Lanarkshire, will now proceed to a procedural hearing in December ahead of a full “substantive” hearing in January.

The proceedings were raised with the help of the Govan Law Centre against the Scottish Government and the UK Work and Pensions Secretary following the move to end universal entitlement to the payment.

The case’s argument rests on the accusation that both governments failed to adequately consult with those of pension age on the change and did not release an equality impact assessment on the changes.
 

takno

Verified Rep - Traksy
Joined
9 Jul 2016
Messages
6,592
Two Scottish pensioners have been given permission to bring legal action against the government over the removal of the winter fuel allowance:

I suspect that this won't succeed, and if it does succeed it will lead to a modification on the rules over equality assessments.

The change was subject to a full parliamentary vote. Arguing that it isn't legal because a previous bill created some awkward paperwork stage which leaves the courts creating law in opposition to parliament isn't going to sit well with the supreme court
 

Broucek

Member
Joined
13 Aug 2020
Messages
942
Location
UK
I suspect that this won't succeed, and if it does succeed it will lead to a modification on the rules over equality assessments.

The change was subject to a full parliamentary vote. Arguing that it isn't legal because a previous bill created some awkward paperwork stage which leaves the courts creating law in opposition to parliament isn't going to sit well with the supreme court
Right. Regardless of what one things of this policy, the will of Parliament is clear and previous governments can't bind their successors
 

brad465

Veteran Member
Joined
11 Aug 2010
Messages
11,484
Location
Taunton or Kent
The bus fare cap is being raised to £3 in the budget:


The bus fares cap in England will be raised to £3 in the upcoming Budget, Prime Minister Sir Keir Starmer has announced.

It is an increase on the current limit of £2 which was introduced under the previous Conservative government.

While I do think the £2 cap was never going to be sustainable, I think a jump to £3 is a bit much at once and think £2.50 would have made more sense. However at least this means the cap is continuing as a policy, as this will still be more affordable than a number of pre-cap journeys.
 

Yew

Established Member
Joined
12 Mar 2011
Messages
7,239
Location
UK
I think I would have preferred a tiered system, perhaps with bands at 2, 3 and £5? Broadly corresponding to "in the city", "from the outskirts/nearby towns" and "from the next city over".
 

Mag_seven

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
1 Sep 2014
Messages
11,996
Location
here to eternity
For discussion on the bus fares cap changes please use this thread:
 

Kite159

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Jan 2014
Messages
22,794
Location
West of Andover
I see minimum wage is due to raise to £12.21 (from £11,44) for 21+ with the 18-20 rate increasing to £10 from £8.60. Along with the rumoured talk about higher employer national insurance costs I can see some places not employing as many people, or when someone leaves either not replacing them (making the remaining staff work harder) or getting replaced with someone on fewer hours [i.e. if leaver was on 30 hours a week, replacement comes in on 25 hours a week and is expected to do the same sort of work).
 

takno

Verified Rep - Traksy
Joined
9 Jul 2016
Messages
6,592
I see minimum wage is due to raise to £12.21 (from £11,44) for 21+ with the 18-20 rate increasing to £10 from £8.60. Along with the rumoured talk about higher employer national insurance costs I can see some places not employing as many people, or when someone leaves either not replacing them (making the remaining staff work harder) or getting replaced with someone on fewer hours [i.e. if leaver was on 30 hours a week, replacement comes in on 25 hours a week and is expected to do the same sort of work).
It's possible, but most of the people threatening to do this are already working their staff as hard as they can anyway.

I expect to see a range of hospitality venues and marginal retail claiming this is the last straw. In practice though we're a few years on from COVID, and if their customers haven't come back yet it's probably time for them to face facts. The retail and hospitality industries aren't being helped by zombie venues hanging on, spreading the customers and revenue across more rents and more overheads.
 

Donny Dave

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2005
Messages
5,394
Location
Doncaster
OK, that budget has left me confused to the actual state of the countries finances. Yes there has been tax rises totalling £40billion, but the spending announcements have exceeded this by quite some margin.

How bad are the finances really, and with that amount of spending, where is the so called black hole?
 

brad465

Veteran Member
Joined
11 Aug 2010
Messages
11,484
Location
Taunton or Kent
OK, that budget has left me confused to the actual state of the countries finances. Yes there has been tax rises totalling £40billion, but the spending announcements have exceeded this by quite some margin.

How bad are the finances really, and with that amount of spending, where is the so called black hole?
I would wait a day or so before coming to any firm conclusions, including answering this, simply because digesting everything properly will take time (the devil is in the detail).
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
23,342
How bad are the finances really, and with that amount of spending, where is the so called black hole?
The black hole is in this year's expenditure. The debt the country has means that the finances over the longer term are dire. The problem is generating new income, which is why they talk of the need for growth, as everything has been sold off so isn't in our hands.

Key problems are the enormous scale of imported goods we consume, and the fact that many people work for overseas companies, both of which are a drain on the income we have the ability to earn, plus the productivity issues where we can't scale much of our services based production up.
 

Donny Dave

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2005
Messages
5,394
Location
Doncaster
All the hidden details will be in the supplementary papers included in Hansard, however, 1 thing of interest worth noting is that there are no changes to pensions (yet).
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
20,326
How does any of this absolve those calling for an increase to fuel duties of the responsibility to think through the consequences of what they are calling for and care about the harm their proposal would cause?
Every government policy inevitably harms some group or other.

That's the hard part about running a country!
This budget cold bloodedly harms some groups to benefit others, as esentially all budgets do.
 

Dent

Established Member
Joined
4 Feb 2015
Messages
1,200
Every government policy inevitably harms some group or other.

That's the hard part about running a country!
This budget cold bloodedly harms some groups to benefit others, as esentially all budgets do.
Again, how does this absolve those calling for an increase in fuel duty of their responsibility to think through the harm their proposal would cause to the whole of society?
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
23,342
Again, how does this absolve those calling for an increase in fuel duty of their responsibility to think through the harm their proposal would cause to the whole of society?
Now would have been a perfect opportunity to introduce some upward movement in fuel duty, as fuel prices have reduced markedly over the last few months from their peak. Instead, the decision has been pushed to another time.

Is a penny on fuel tax imposed by the government somehow different to a penny imposed by retailers or elsewhere in the supply chain?
 

SuspectUsual

Established Member
Joined
11 Jul 2018
Messages
6,775
Again, how does this absolve those calling for an increase in fuel duty of their responsibility to think through the harm their proposal would cause to the whole of society?

Could you outline how you believe the Government could have raised £40bn a year without causing any harm to the whole of society?
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
28,669
Location
Nottingham
OK, that budget has left me confused to the actual state of the countries finances. Yes there has been tax rises totalling £40billion, but the spending announcements have exceeded this by quite some margin.
Some of the spending (such as HS2 to Euston) will be classified as investment. It's legitimate to borrow money to pay for this and the rules have been changed to increase the scope to do so. As long as it's a wise investment it will generate enough economic activity and extra taxes to pay off the loan.

That's different from day to day spending which doesn't generate any return but is necessary to keep the country running. Unless exceptional circumstances apply this should be funded from taxes.
 

Dent

Established Member
Joined
4 Feb 2015
Messages
1,200
Could you outline how you believe the Government could have raised £40bn a year without causing any harm to the whole of society?
It is not my responsibility to create a budget for the entire country, and that is going far beyond pointing out to those calling for something that what they are calling for would have harmful consequences.
 

Mark J

Member
Joined
12 May 2018
Messages
657
Via IanVisits on Twitter, railcards are going up to £35 and rail fares increasing by 4.6% in March.
You are joking! This is seriously taking the mickey now.

I would want to see some kind of relaxation on the minimum spend, for any increase.

Railcards going up.
Rail fares up (twice in a year in some areas).
Bus fares going up.
 

Harpo

Established Member
Joined
21 Aug 2024
Messages
3,869
Location
Newport
I’m pleased to see that so many things bled out to uselessness over the last 14 years can start to recover. NHS, schools, roads, social housing, shop crime policing and more have some scope to recover. It was also good to hear that excessive Covid profiteering will be clawed back to help too, hopefully with suitable corruption charges.

The Mailgraph Express will hate the budget but they were always going to just because it’s Labour. They’ll just carry on looking for new dirt on Labour.
 

A S Leib

Established Member
Joined
9 Sep 2018
Messages
3,340
You are joking!

I would want to see some kind of relaxation on the minimum spend, for any increase.
If it's any consolation, although I don't think it is much of one, regulated fares increasing by 4.6% means fares which were previously ~£11.50 will be over the normal limit.
 

Top