Gap beyond Nottingham for Liverpool-Norwich services (specifically 1L12)

[eastdyke]

Unless GBR changes things, the politics of sharing crews between operators would be complicated. Both are on different rates of pay. Nothing is easy to change. The last thing anyone wants to do is split the service.

When I am on PBO and there is no train, I could find a few.

And surely GBR 'changing things' is part of the raison d'etre?

 

[dk1]

When I am on PBO and there is no train, I could find a few.

And surely GBR 'changing things' is part of the raison d'etre?

It’s not going to be easy. I see no changes on the immediate horizon.

 

[yorksrob]

Have experienced this gap recently.

EMR and their paymasters in Whitehall need to get their fingers out of their arses and get it reinstated pronto.

 

[1D54]

I had the misfortune to be on the 14:51 LIV - NRW yesterday boarding at MAN,service was operated with a single 158 unit (799) and the scenes were chaotic. TM refused to let train leave until some passengers agreed to alight as he described the train as 'dangerously overcrowded'

A few got off but not enough to satisfy him and he announced that the situation would be looked at again at Stockport and if more people didn't leave the train then it would be cancelled.. There must have been a hell of a queue of services trying to get into P13 so i suspect this is the reason for leaving only 25 down.

Common sense prevailed (for some of us at least) with the announcement that service would now not be calling at Sheffield so many got off at Stockport for a TPE service.

I fully realise that safety of passengers is paramount but surely EMR must have expected this on a Saturday afternoon and done something to aquire another unit from wherever..

To compound my day the service i took out of Nottingham back south was cancelled as there was no TM!! Not my best day out on the trains.

 

[LowLevel]

I had the misfortune to be on the 14:51 LIV - NRW yesterday boarding at MAN,service was operated with a single 158 unit (799) and the scenes were chaotic. TM refused to let train leave until some passengers agreed to alight as he described the train as 'dangerously overcrowded'

A few got off but not enough to satisfy him and he announced that the situation would be looked at again at Stockport and if more people didn't leave the train then it would be cancelled.. There must have been a hell of a queue of services trying to get into P13 so i suspect this is the reason for leaving only 25 down.

Common sense prevailed (for some of us at least) with the announcement that service would now not be calling at Sheffield so many got off at Stockport for a TPE service.

I fully realise that safety of passengers is paramount but surely EMR must have expected this on a Saturday afternoon and done something to aquire another unit from wherever..

To compound my day the service i took out of Nottingham back south was cancelled as there was no TM!! Not my best day out on the trains.

It was horrendous on the way to Liverpool as well leaving literally hundreds of passengers behind en route and it was the driver who refused to depart Man Picc.

 

[dk1]

I had the misfortune to be on the 14:51 LIV - NRW yesterday boarding at MAN,service was operated with a single 158 unit (799) and the scenes were chaotic. TM refused to let train leave until some passengers agreed to alight as he described the train as 'dangerously overcrowded'


I fully realise that safety of passengers is paramount but surely EMR must have expected this on a Saturday afternoon and done something to aquire another unit from wherever..

Two EMR 158s are out of service due to collision damage (trees) so the fleet is pretty stretched. Short of cancelling something else there is little that can be done.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Two EMR 158s are out of service due to collision damage (trees) so the fleet is pretty stretched. Short of cancelling something else there is little that can be done.

Seems to me the government want to negotiate an order for 200 755s to start replacement, that sort of quantity could get a good deal.

 

[dk1]

Seems to me the government want to negotiate an order for 200 755s to start replacement, that sort of quantity could get a good deal.

You can’t go wrong with Stadler and particularly a variant of the 755 but not sure I can see that happening.

 

[1D54]

I was under the impression that 170s were taking over this route. I have seen them on it but certainly none yesterday

 

[dk1]

I was under the impression that 170s were taking over this route. I have seen them on it but certainly none yesterday

A few more on the route from December but the 158s are being refreshed for indefinite future use.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

A few more on the route from December but the 158s are being refreshed for indefinite future use.

It's a bit moving the deck chairs on the Titanic as adding more 170s would improve capacity here but reduce it elsewhere

 

[43055]

I was under the impression that 170s were taking over this route. I have seen them on it but certainly none yesterday

170s are still the mainstay of the other regional routes with 158s mostly on the Liverpool - Norwich along with a couple of 170s including a 6 car on the 0951 from Liverpool.

Looks like the capacity was being concentrated elsewhere yesterday as at least 2 of the 3 Matlock diagrams were 4 car 170s, presumably for the Matlock illuminations.

 

[dk1]

170s are still the mainstay of the other regional routes with 158s mostly on the Liverpool - Norwich along with a couple of 170s including a 6 car on the 0951 from Liverpool.

Looks like the capacity was being concentrated elsewhere yesterday as at least 2 of the 3 Matlock diagrams were 4 car 170s, presumably for the Matlock illuminations.

Some slight changes coming up. Shame the catering trolley can’t pass between 170 units but suppose that’s less important than a seat to some.

 

[LowLevel]

Some slight changes coming up. Shame the catering trolley can’t pass between 170 units but suppose that’s less important than a seat to some.

The main 6 car diagram at 0635 from Nottingham and then 0951 from Liverpool on a weekday is actually booked 2 trollies, one boards at Nottingham in one portion and the other at Sheffield in the other

 

[dk1]

The main 6 car diagram at 0635 from Nottingham and then 0951 from Liverpool on a weekday is actually booked 2 trollies, one boards at Nottingham in one portion and the other at Sheffield in the other

That is music to my ears. Thank you. Hopefully it will continue on that and anymore multi-170 operated services on the route.

 

[Travelmonkey]

I do wonder if the ridding of the 156 units was a mistep, keeping a couple on books to work with the 158s would ease the pain. I know when I was regularly traveling from Warrington the extra unit was appricaited,

 

[LowLevel]

I do wonder if the ridding of the 156 units was a mistep, keeping a couple on books to work with the 158s would ease the pain. I know when I was regularly traveling from Warrington the extra unit was appricaited,

Not really, one of the biggest functional problems is depot capacity to look after a fleet with more vehicles than ever and some infrastructure issues at the depots also reducing capacity.

Tyseley was always designed to be the central area super depot for DMUs and splitting up Central Trains messed that up and whilst Etches Park is a full depot it isn't the biggest maintenance depot going facility wise in the south sheds and some capacity isn't available there at the minute due to work being undertaken. Eastcroft can't do the full range of tasks.

The EMT solution in times of problems of farming certain tasks out to Neville Hill (also a full scale depot) isn't available either.

There's a line of units at Etches Park awaiting parts or depot space/time to sort them out.

 

[yorksrob]

Had a three carriage 170 from Norwich the other day. Was very pleasant. LNWR made a nice job of them.

 

[Travelmonkey]

Had a three carriage 170 from Norwich the other day. Was very pleasant. LNWR made a nice job of them.

It is something of a odd quirk on the ramps of the them units they still say "property of London Midland"

Though I prefer the 15x units I can see why the 170s are coming back in droves, now if only they could do as scotrail and work a 170 to 158 then that would be more flexible,

*photo of boarding ramp placed down with a yellow spray painted notice reading "Property of London Midland" *

 

[yorksrob]

It is something of a odd quirk on the ramps of the them units they still say "property of London Midland"

Though I prefer the 15x units I can see why the 170s are coming back in droves, now if only they could do as scotrail and work a 170 to 158 then that would be more flexible,

*photo of boarding ramp placed down with a yellow spray painted notice reading "Property of London Midland" *

There's nothing like a 4 carriage 158 as a people shifter, however there aren't enough of them to run the whole route, and a 3 carriage is better than two to Norwich.

Are you saying that Scotrail can run 170's and 158's in multiple ?

 

[dk1]

There's nothing like a 4 carriage 158 as a people shifter, however there aren't enough of them to run the whole route, and a 3 carriage is better than two to Norwich.

Are you saying that Scotrail can run 170's and 158's in multiple ?

People shifter yes but the 158s suffer from single end doors which causes extended dwell times at the likes of Piccadilly, Oxford Road and Peterborough.

 

[yorksrob]

People shifter yes but the 158s suffer from single end doors which causes extended dwell times at the likes of Piccadilly, Oxford Road and Peterborough.

That's of course exacerbated when the trains aren't long enough !

Perhaps the future should involve all 158's and 170's being reformed into 3 carriage sets with six on the Liverpool side and three towards Norwich !

 

[RailWonderer]

A few more on the route from December but the 158s are being refreshed for indefinite future use.

Crazy and shortsighted. They're 35 years old, their replacements should already be in the bidding phase by now or within the next year unless cascades elsewhere are being planned. The 158s are comfortable, reliable and have capacity but they are getting very old now.

Are you saying that Scotrail can run 170's and 158's in multiple ?

Yes they do regularly although I can't find any diagrams today.

 

[LowLevel]

ScotRail 158s were retrofitted with the class 170 passenger information system/public address etc so they can work their units in multiple.

EMR 158s and 170s have two incompatible systems, so they can only work together with the front unit in use and the rear unit locked out. Odd things can happen when you couple them too like buzzers or hustle alarms randomly sounding.

 

[yorksrob]

Crazy and shortsighted. They're 35 years old, their replacements should already be in the bidding phase by now or within the next year unless cascades elsewhere are being planned. The 158s are comfortable, reliable and have capacity but they are getting very old now.

Yes they do regularly although I can't find any diagrams today.

That's interesting to know.

I imagine 3 carriage 170's throughout, strengthened by a 158 between Nottingham and Liverpool would be a good capacity match.

 

[Travelmonkey]

Speaking with a guard a few weeks ago when a 158 was out on the North Staffs line he said he preferred the 170s although that's a bit anecdotal I'm hoping with a refurbishment the 170s fit in better. At the moment it's a mismatch of their former operators interiors with a purple outside. Really we need a new DMU fleet across the regional network, at least it isn't as bad as TFW with their 2 coach 150s & single 153s on the longer runs, but still far from ideal,

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Speaking with a guard a few weeks ago when a 158 was out on the North Staffs line he said he preferred the 170s although that's a bit anecdotal I'm hoping with a refurbishment the 170s fit in better. At the moment it's a mismatch of their former operators interiors with a purple outside. Really we need a new DMU fleet across the regional network, at least it isn't as bad as TFW with their 2 coach 150s & single 153s on the longer runs, but still far from ideal,

That was my point further up with the stadlers.. a bit in jest knowing that there's not much money around.

 

[Class 170101]

I totally agree. The entire route needs to be retained even though the Nottingham to Norwich section would operate much better under the control of Greater Anglia.

I disagree, what would Nottingham do? Just Nottingham to Norwich? Boring and a pain to keep drivers and guards and more likely would move on regularly (ie a retention problem). I think it would be better if EMR and GA Norwich depots were merged and a link created at Norwich for EMR instead with perhaps a route added at the Anglia end (to Cambridge but perhaps also others)

 

[dk1]

I disagree, what would Nottingham do? Just Nottingham to Norwich? Boring and a pain to keep drivers and guards and more likely would move on regularly (ie a retention problem). I think it would be better if EMR and GA Norwich depots were merged and a link created at Norwich for EMR instead with perhaps a route added at the Anglia end (to Cambridge but perhaps also others)

I wasn’t intending for Nottingham to remain as a GA depot but if it did it would not really be any different to what Norwich EMR drivers do now. They just have an odd Leicester local attached to some diagrams but that’s only the Syston North Jcn to Leicester itself as extra as sign both routes to Peterborough. We could allow them the odd Yarmouth for extra interest.

I was envisaging the three links at Norwich that sign the Breckland route to Cambridge signing Ely-Nottingham. Would be almost a repeat of the early 1990s when Peterborough Regional Railway depot closed and Cambridge drivers concentrated on the Birmingham route and Norwich learnt Peterborough-Nottingham.

All hypothetical of course.

 

[RailWonderer]

That's interesting to know.

Bingo. Looks like the morning Inverness - Edinburgh normally runs as a 5 car 158-170 and it ran yesterday.

Realtime Trains | 1050 Inverness to Edinburgh | 29/10/2024

Real-time train running information for 1050 departure from Inverness to Edinburgh on 29/10/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

When they were new, all 170s were meant to be backwards compatible with Sprinters, but as said by people working on the railway, software upgrades over the years have made some incompatible, but Scotrail has had both for two decades now so has probably upgraded them together.