CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Travellin’man]

Would make the most sense back to manufacturer fix it, it's what you do with other new faulty appliances.

But don't forget there's no rail access to the CAF factory so that would mean splitting the units to send in by Road creating even more problems. That's if there are enough suitable lorries for the 197 rubbish

 

[Envoy]

But don't forget there's no rail access to the CAF factory so that would mean splitting the units to send in by Road creating even more problems. That's if there are enough suitable lorries for the 197 rubbish

This is a ridiculous situation. The tracks alongside the CAF works at Llanwern serve what’s left of the steel works - which appears to have plenty of sidings. You would think - would you not, that some of the steel wagons could be moved to away from the CAF works vicinity to enable faulty 197’s to be parked so that they could be fixed?

Look at this Google Map of the area.

 

[Peter Sarf]

This is a ridiculous situation. The tracks alongside the CAF works at Llanwern serve what’s left of the steel works - which appears to have plenty of sidings. You would think - would you not, that some of the steel wagons could be moved to away from the CAF works vicinity to enable faulty 197’s to be parked so that they could be fixed?

Look at this Google Map of the area.

Yes. It seems odd that 197s are taken by road across South Wales to the Midlands (Donnington iirc). Perhaps a single crane could hoist the coaches from the steel sidings into the CAF factory sidings. It is apparently all over the gas pipe in between that they overlooked when planning the factory.

 

[Lurcheroo]

But there are also the 756s mainly sitting around at Barry that could alleviate things in the South Wales valleys now there is almost enough overhead wiring - that seems imminent ?.

They are due to start in service from November 11th.

 

[Peter Sarf]

They are due to start in service from November 11th.

I think the use of the 756s could make a really big difference to the 197 shortage if there is enough wiring for many of the 756s to get used ?.
It will be the start of electric services in the valleys at last.

 

[Bikeman78]

I think the use of the 756s could make a really big difference to the 197 shortage if there is enough wiring for many of the 756s to get used ?.
It will be the start of electric services in the valleys at last.

It will free up 150s to cover Maesteg and Ebbw Vale diagrams which will alleviate any shortage of 197s.

 

[craigybagel]

It will free up 150s to cover Maesteg and Ebbw Vale diagrams which will alleviate any shortage of 197s.

And/or allow for the release of 231s to those routes as originally intended. Either way, it frees up 197s.

Would make the most sense back to manufacturer fix it, it's what you do with other new faulty appliances.

In most cases, sending the units back to CAF would be a waste of time. Often the sets that are out of service are awaiting certain parts, and not parts that are sitting on a shelf in Llanwern. Keeping them out of service until the parts are available to repair them and replacing them with the ERTMS fitted units in the meantime is a much better way to keep things moving.

 

[Peter Sarf]

And/or allow for the release of 231s to those routes as originally intended. Either way, it frees up 197s.


In most cases, sending the units back to CAF would be a waste of time. Often the sets that are out of service are awaiting certain parts, and not parts that are sitting on a shelf in Llanwern. Keeping them out of service until the parts are available to repair them and replacing them with the ERTMS fitted units in the meantime is a much better way to keep things moving.

It does seem as though often new fleets suffer from a shortage of parts.

Is the problem not enough money spent on a reasonable pool of parts or is it some parts having a higher than expected failure rate ?.

 

[Caaardiff]

Scratches head. So are Chester not going to end up with responsibility for all the 197s ?.
I know Machynlleth will be an outstation that is currently busy with 158s.
But does this mean Cardiff Canton will take on 197s when the 158s go ?.

Machynlleth will be maintaining the ERTM's 197's in a similar way they maintain the 158s. CAF will however be doing heavy maintenance on all the 197's but only the big work that Machynlleth can't accommodate. So if you add all maintenance of ERTM's units to Chester it is really stretching their capacity.

Although Canton do some maintenance on 158's, it's mainly only wheelsets so they actually do very little work on them, only when required. Machynlleth do the majority of it.
The difference is contractual. TFW maintain the 15x fleet themselves and always have internally, whereas CAF are contracted to do all the maintenance on 197's. The 197 maintenance is not in house to TFW. Common sense would allow TFW to do basic maintenance to ease the pressure, but CAF won't allow it currently.

 

[simonmpoulton]

Common sense would allow TFW to do basic maintenance to ease the pressure, but CAF won't allow it currently.

If common sense was applied a new large depot would've been built to maintain these units rather than trying to get Chester to deal with a fleet double the size of which it was originally designed and built for. I wonder when this realisation will finally set in with TFW.

 

[Caaardiff]

If common sense was applied a new large depot would've been built to maintain these units rather than trying to get Chester to deal with a fleet double the size of which it was originally designed and built for. I wonder when this realisation will finally set in with TFW.

Common sense? On the railway? Surely not!

In all seriousness, if the 19x fleet were actually a reliable, well built DMU then things might be a bit better. But they are not.

 

[childwallblues]

Common sense? On the railway? Surely not!

In all seriousness, if the 19x fleet were actually a reliable, well built DMU then things might be a bit better. But they are not.

That is the reality of the situation. I know WMR are having problems with the 196 fleet. Not sure how the 195/331 at Northern are doing?

 

[Dai Corner]

That is the reality of the situation. I know WMR are having problems with the 196 fleet. Not sure how the 195/331 at Northern are doing?

Weren't the earlier (195/196) units assembled in Spain rather than Newport? Is there any correlation between assembly site and reliability? I could imagine Newport had a steep learning curve to overcome.

 

[Jez]

Can't tell if it's already been mentioned in this thread or not but recently we've had a briefing about the ERTMS equipped subfleet coming into service (with ERTMS isolated) for increased capacity.

Also, there's an update soon coming to the route clearance which will finally allow 5 car 197s to run all the way from Manchester to Cardiff, among other changes. Set for November at the moment.

That's excellent news. 5 cars on the Manchester-South Wales (that arent MK4's) cant come soon enough.

I think TFW have around 50 197s booked for passenger service from the December Timetable and that would be unlikely to happen with I think 54 of them at the moment. So extra 197s will be very welcome.

 

[Geeves]

That is the reality of the situation. I know WMR are having problems with the 196 fleet. Not sure how the 195/331 at Northern are doing?

I had a quick look on the Northern CAF front

195/0 - 6 out of 25 are currently on the depot
195/1 - 8 out of 33 are currently on the depot (two are long term OOS from the Grange derailment)

Of the ones currently on the depot only 115 has been stopped more than a few days, so at least on the Northern front its not all doom and gloom!

As for the depot at Chester being too small, remember the main CAF depot for Northern is only a small shed at Newton Heath

Also remember Northern are 6 years in and TfW are only 2 years in

 

[Peter Sarf]

I had a quick look on the Northern CAF front

195/0 - 6 out of 25 are currently on the depot
195/1 - 8 out of 33 are currently on the depot (two are long term OOS from the Grange derailment)

Of the ones currently on the depot only 115 has been stopped more than a few days, so at least on the Northern front its not all doom and gloom!

As for the depot at Chester being too small, remember the main CAF depot for Northern is only a small shed at Newton Heath

Also remember Northern are 6 years in and TfW are only 2 years in

I had forgotten there was a four year difference.
Where does WMT fit into this, somewhere in between ?.

 

[WAB]

But does this mean Cardiff Canton will take on 197s when the 158s go ?.

That's not the plan as far as I'm aware. But I suspect that at some point, the penny is going to drop that relying on Chester to undertake all but the most basic work on 197s is unsustainable.

 

[Philip Roberts]

I went on my first long distance journey on a 197 today. Other than the undersable disruption which meant it was significantly delayed, I had a really pleasant journey. The sear was comfy, with plenty of leg roo.lm and space for my case. Really reliable broadband and I didn't find it rough going at all (although I wasn't sat over a bogey). Apart from one short place where my laptop noticeably rattled, it was very smooth. I was really impressed

 

[chesterred16]

There was one driving car of a 197 on a low-loader on the M54 this afternoon, seen near Wolverhampton around 1330. I couldn't ID it. There was no second loader with the other car in sight. Any idea where it was going?

 

[Bikeman78]

I had a quick look on the Northern CAF front

195/0 - 6 out of 25 are currently on the depot
195/1 - 8 out of 33 are currently on the depot (two are long term OOS from the Grange derailment)

Is this typical? That is 76% and 80% respectively. In the name of fairness, I'm discounting the two derailed three car units. The much maligned Welsh 150s do better than that most days, turning out 25 or 26 units from a working fleet of 30 (I am not including 150242). That's 83 or 86%.

 

[Steve B]

There was one driving car of a 197 on a low-loader on the M54 this afternoon, seen near Wolverhampton around 1330. I couldn't ID it. There was no second loader with the other car in sight. Any idea where it was going?

If it was going west then was probably being delivered from the factory to Donnington

 

[chesterred16]

If it was going west then was probably being delivered from the factory to Donnington

No, it was eastbound, as if it was coming from Telford or Shrewsbury and heading towards Birmingham.

 

[victormildrew]

Must have been sleeping sorry, i have noticed 4 and 5 car 197s running between Shrewsbury and Manchester am i correct?.

 

[sd0733]

Must have been sleeping sorry, i have noticed 4 and 5 car 197s running between Shrewsbury and Manchester am i correct?.

4 cars have run for months. 5 cars aren't running just yet so shouldn't have been any of those.

 

[victormildrew]

4 cars have run for months. 5 cars aren't running just yet so shouldn't have been any of those.

4 cars have run for months. 5 cars aren't running just yet so shouldn't have been any of those.

Yes sorry should have looked closer, 1v93 12.31 Manchester Swansea attached 197002 at Shrewsbury then making it 5 cars.

 

[childwallblues]

Is this typical? That is 76% and 80% respectively. In the name of fairness, I'm discounting the two derailed three car units. The much maligned Welsh 150s do better than that most days, turning out 25 or 26 units from a working fleet of 30 (I am not including 150242). That's 83 or 86%.

I that your figures for Northern 195s sound about right.

 

[Jez]

Looks like far more 3 car 197s are out of service rather than 2 car. I can only find 3 of the 2 cars not in service (011/020/044) but there are 6 of the 3 cars not in serivce (101/102/103/106/113/124)

As well as this we appear to have a 2 car 197 covering for one of the MK4's today (0830 ex Manchester) and 2 cars also on the 1330, 1530 and 1730 from Manchester.

 

[sd0733]

The final hurdles have been overcome for 5 car Manchesters and they'll be officially permitted between Shrewsbury and Manchester from next week, 4th November will be the first day.

 

[Jez]

The final hurdles have been overcome for 5 car Manchesters and they'll be officially permitted between Shrewsbury and Manchester from next week, 4th November will be the first day.

Thats excellent news. Will there be any booked workings of 5 cars from next week or wait until more 197s can come into service?

 

[Lurcheroo]

The final hurdles have been overcome for 5 car Manchesters and they'll be officially permitted between Shrewsbury and Manchester from next week, 4th November will be the first day.

Absolutely great stuff, hopefully the 756’s and ERTMS 197’s can mean there are extra units available to go with it