Introduction of European Entry-Exit Scheme (EES)

[Howardh]

I think we're just going to have to go for a hard border with Spain and subsidise lifeline links with the UK (and maybe Morocco) for Gibraltar to make it through. It probably wasn't the best choice, but it's too far gone to change.

It'll always be possible by sea.

Mmmm, firstly not sure if there's a direct ferry between Morocco and Gibraltar but that idea could be extended, we fly to Tangier and coach to the ferry port, bit long-winded but we'd get there! We could have a Freedom Of Movement treaty between us and Morocco so there are no issues either way!

 

[Struner]

It'll always be possible by sea.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Mmmm, firstly not sure if there's a direct ferry between Morocco and Gibraltar but that idea could be extended, we fly to Tangier and coach to the ferry port, bit long-winded but we'd get there! We could have a Freedom Of Movement treaty between us and Morocco so there are no issues either way!

Gib to Morocco by air would help. Gibraltar already has a port, but I'm thinking it would be a useful link for shopping and connections to more destinations (one of the main reasons for commuting across the border is because I think shopping is cheaper on the Spanish side).

I would think that Morocco would be more than happy to sign a transport links and simplified visa agreement with the UK, especially if it gave them visa benefits in GB too.

 

[Struner]

I would think that Morocco would be more than happy to sign a transport links and simplified visa agreement with the UK, especially if it gave them visa benefits in GB too.

that would be the day

 

[Chester1]

Basically, it's all bonkers.

Brexit should have been declared null and void in order to protect Northern Ireland and the Good Friday Agreement, and Gibraltar. Are we really gonna have the situation where in future Brits without Schengen entry rights can't travel between the UK and it's own territory?

Where's the Sovereignty there?

Northern Ireland has been edging out the union very slowly for a century and Gibraltar had 13 years of a completely closed border from the late 60s to early 80s. Standard Schengen border checks would be managable. The Windsor Framework will do until there is a united Ireland and Gibraltar is a town of 35,000 people that can easily be given necessary economic support from a hard border. They are not reasons to "null and void" a referendum that 500+ MPs voted to hold and respect the outcome of.

Losers consent is essential to democracy. I gave mine because being the EUs Canada is a reasonable option. It wasn't my preference, it's not the economically optimal option but it's a reasonable position. The last time I heard "null and void" proposed was when Man United fans were desperate to prevent Liverpool from winning the Premier League in spring 2020 so they desperately demanded the only option that would get what they wanted....

Gib to Morocco by air would help. Gibraltar already has a port, but I'm thinking it would be a useful link for shopping and connections to more destinations (one of the main reasons for commuting across the border is because I think shopping is cheaper on the Spanish side).

I would think that Morocco would be more than happy to sign a transport links and simplified visa agreement with the UK, especially if it gave them visa benefits in GB too.

Gibraltar had a ferry link with Tangier until 2015. It was daily until shortly prior to it's cancellation. Morocco and Gibraltar have had good relations in the modern era.

There seems to be some sort of need to pretend a hard border would be disastrous. It just means standard EU and Schengen border checks. It would change nothing with goods because Gibraltar was never allowed by Spain to join the customs union when it was in the EU alongside the UK. The Gibraltar government has been clear about its red lines on sovereignty and from what I have heard and what @Cloud Strife has heard, they have been stalling to delay not prevent no deal.

 

[zero]

According to this Spanish article

España: fronteras impermeables… a ingleses

Un avión de Easyjet hizo el vuelo de Londres a Gibraltar, como ocurre cada día. Al aproximarse a la pista, las condiciones meteorológicas aconsejaron al

www.preferente.com

even British citizens without Spanish residency were denied entry at AGP on a diverted flight.

When ETIAS comes in, British citizens would need one to fly to Spain but might not have one if they were only intending to go to Gibraltar, so this situation could happen more frequently (the aforementioned incident seems to just be Spain flexing its muscles)

 

[Chester1]

According to this Spanish article

España: fronteras impermeables… a ingleses

Un avión de Easyjet hizo el vuelo de Londres a Gibraltar, como ocurre cada día. Al aproximarse a la pista, las condiciones meteorológicas aconsejaron al

www.preferente.com

even British citizens without Spanish residency were denied entry at AGP on a diverted flight.

When ETIAS comes in, British citizens would need one to fly to Spain but might not have one if they were only intending to go to Gibraltar, so this situation could happen more frequently (the aforementioned incident seems to just be Spain flexing its muscles)

The Gibraltar government has conceeded as much as it can. Spain doing stuff like that or the border stamp incident earlier this month won't change the fact that no Gibraltar government could survive Spanish police being given authority in Gibraltar.

There are three work arounds for Spain refusing to continue the special measures for diverted flights. The first is use Faro much more often, holding passengers there until the plane can complete its journey. The second is cancel more flights pre departure. The third is do a deal with Morocco. Standard Schengen border checks would make a daily ferry economic again opening it up as a viable option for diversions.

Gibraltar controls the main economic lever that matters to its economy. It decides how many Spainiards can work in Gibraltar and therefore can effectively guarantee full employment of its residents (the demand for workers will always exceed its adult population).

 

[stuu]

I would think that Morocco would be more than happy to sign a transport links and simplified visa agreement with the UK, especially if it gave them visa benefits in GB too.

Can you imagine the headline in the Daily Mail? The Express would implode

 

[AlastairFraser]

that would be the day

I would quite like it! I can't speak for others, of course. It would also help to highlight Spain's hypocrisy with Ceuta/Melilla.

Gibraltar had a ferry link with Tangier until 2015. It was daily until shortly prior to it's cancellation. Morocco and Gibraltar have had good relations in the modern era.

There seems to be some sort of need to pretend a hard border would be disastrous. It just means standard EU and Schengen border checks. It would change nothing with goods because Gibraltar was never allowed by Spain to join the customs union when it was in the EU alongside the UK. The Gibraltar government has been clear about its red lines on sovereignty and from what I have heard and what @Cloud Strife has heard, they have been stalling to delay not prevent no deal.

That's good news about relations, I think both air and sea links would be the most robust package. Perhaps the Government could subsidise a Passenger Service Obligation (PSO) contract to subsidise the resumption of air and sea links with Morocco, and then remove the subsidy when demand is sufficient enough for the service to be profitable on its own.

A hard border is not good for Gib at all. They don't have many of their own facilities, and housing + shopping can be very expensive.

A hard border is very undesirable, but if it must happen, that is fine. Morocco can take their place (or if they refuse, Morocco's best  friend Algeria ).

Can you imagine the headline in the Daily Mail? The Express would implode

Good! If the readership could implode at the same time and free up some housing to alleviate the shortages, even better!

 

[Howardh]

Can you imagine the headline in the Daily Mail? The Express would implode

Brilliant! No-one said removing the freedom of movement between us and the EU doesn't mean we can't have FoM with African countries!

 

[zero]

A hard border is very undesirable, but if it must happen, that is fine. Morocco can take their place (or if they refuse, Morocco's best  friend Algeria ).

Not sure if this was meant to be sarcastic, but a few years ago my friend was invited to visit Algeria on a school exchange and it was a prolonged, invasive, paper-based, in-person process to get a visa, I don't see them suddenly transitioning to freedom of movement

 

[Chester1]

Brilliant! No-one said removing the freedom of movement between us and the EU doesn't mean we can't have FoM with African countries!

No one at any level of government in Gibraltar or UK is considering visa easements let alone FOM with Morocco.

 

[Howardh]

No one at any level of government in Gibraltar or UK is considering visa easements let alone FOM with Morocco.

..at the moment!

 

[Chester1]

..at the moment!

Having a family member in Canada puts some of the reaction to brexit into perspective for me. The UK went from being part of a early stage confederation to being an independent middle power. The other first world ones are Canada, Australia, Japan, South Korea and Taiwan. The poorer ones are Brazil, Indonesia and Nigeria. South Africa is sort of in between and India is different because it has the potential to be a super power. UK-EU is 1:5 economically. Canada-US is nearly twice as unbalanced but it works. I have asked Canadians criticising brexit when their country will join the US to be part of a larger market... It's not optimal but it doesn't require extreme ideas (from either side) to manage. A lot of the problems caused by brexit are bread and butter governance stuff for comparable countries. After a term of boring government by Labour it should be same here.

Back to topic - Schengen border controls when EES launches just means normal international travel. For Gibraltar residents that means a weekend away is fine, going to a hair salon in La Linea for cheaper low lights won't be OK.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Not sure if this was meant to be sarcastic, but a few years ago my friend was invited to visit Algeria on a school exchange and it was a prolonged, invasive, paper-based, in-person process to get a visa, I don't see them suddenly transitioning to freedom of movement

It was meant to be irony, lol.
Algeria and Morocco are not known to play nicely with each other either.

 

[Cloud Strife]

even British citizens without Spanish residency were denied entry at AGP on a diverted flight.

This is just absurd and stupid on the part of Spain, nothing more. The Schengen Borders Code provides for these situations, and even if British citizens needed visas to enter, they could have been given one at the border in an exceptional case. There's absolutely no reason why Spain couldn't admit them, just as they admit sailors who have to dock at a Spanish port in an emergency.

The first is use Faro much more often, holding passengers there until the plane can complete its journey.

The better option would be Sania Ramel Airport (Tétouanin) in Morocco. UK+EU citizens have visa-free access to Morocco, and it's only a short hop from there to Gibraltar once conditions improve. There might be a handful of passengers on each flight that don't have the right to enter Morocco, but this is not a major problem.

There seems to be some sort of need to pretend a hard border would be disastrous.

It will be a disaster in terms of border infrastructure. Neither Spain nor Gibraltar is equipped to deal with the amount of traffic daily,

 

[AlastairFraser]

The better option would be Sania Ramel Airport (Tétouanin) in Morocco. UK+EU citizens have visa-free access to Morocco, and it's only a short hop from there to Gibraltar once conditions improve. There might be a handful of passengers on each flight that don't have the right to enter Morocco, but this is not a major problem.

Why not Tangier - Ibn Battouta?

 

[Cloud Strife]

Why not Tangier - Ibn Battouta?

Generally speaking, because it would be easier to transport passengers to Ceuta or Tangier-Med if onwards road transport was needed. Tangier-Ville would be an option, but Tarifa is pretty useless for onwards connections, while it's just a short hop from Algeciras to Gibraltar. Algeciras also has much better onwards public transport links.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Generally speaking, because it would be easier to transport passengers to Ceuta or Tangier-Med if onwards road transport was needed. Tangier-Ville would be an option, but Tarifa is pretty useless for onwards connections, while it's just a short hop from Algeciras to Gibraltar. Algeciras also has much better onwards public transport links.

Fair enough, although the objective seems to be to totally avoid Spain in the event of the diversion of a domestic flight.

 

[Chester1]

It will be a disaster in terms of border infrastructure. Neither Spain nor Gibraltar is equipped to deal with the amount of traffic daily,

In the short term there would be significant problems but Gibraltar would have the support of the UK government to expand border facilities and introduce new systems to stream line the crossing. The biggest losers of "no deal" would be Spanish workers in Gibraltar. There right of EU citizens to work their visa free is the gift of the Gibraltarian parliament. In the event of a significant economic downturn and increasing unemployment they could be put under the work permit system.

Generally speaking, because it would be easier to transport passengers to Ceuta or Tangier-Med if onwards road transport was needed. Tangier-Ville would be an option, but Tarifa is pretty useless for onwards connections, while it's just a short hop from Algeciras to Gibraltar. Algeciras also has much better onwards public transport links.

Fair enough, although the objective seems to be to totally avoid Spain in the event of the diversion of a domestic flight.

Any alternative to the Malaga procedure would be because entry via Spain was no longer viable for passengers of weather affected flights. That means a hop in Portugal or Morocco are the only options for now. In event of no deal the best airport in Morocco would depend on whether a new ferry to Gibraltar left from Tangier-Ville or Tangier-Med. It would make sense to have the option to ferry people to Gibraltar of the waiting time of a hop was too long.

As a regular visitor to Gibraltar and husband of a visa national I am very concerned by Spain messing about with diverted flights!

 

[Struner]

[…]
As a regular visitor to Gibraltar and husband of a visa national I am very concerned by Spain messing about with diverted flights!

It’s another brexit blessing…

 

[Chester1]

It’s another brexit blessing…

Are you one of those people who automatically blames brexit for any border related problem? How is a visa national (i.e. someone requiring a visa to enter Spain) being blocked from entering Spain affected by brexit? If I were Irish she would be in same position, being the spouse of an EU citizen doesn't grant you visa free travel in Schengen. Residents of Schengen have visa free travel but residents of EU countries outside of Schengen do not.

Spain has been messing about with Gibraltar since 1704. This is just the latest stuff and there were plenty of problems with the border when all three entities were part of the EU. For instance Spain repeatedly blocked Gibraltar joining open sky and the customs union.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Any alternative to the Malaga procedure would be because entry via Spain was no longer viable for passengers of weather affected flights. That means a hop in Portugal or Morocco are the only options for now. In event of no deal the best airport in Morocco would depend on whether a new ferry to Gibraltar left from Tangier-Ville or Tangier-Med. It would make sense to have the option to ferry people to Gibraltar of the waiting time of a hop was too long.

As a regular visitor to Gibraltar and husband of a visa national I am very concerned by Spain messing about with diverted flights!

It seems that Tangier-Ibn Battouta has faster journey times to both Tangier-Ville and Tangier-Med by road, so that seems like the most sensible option.

 

[kkong]

So it looks like I could well be entering one EU country under the old arrangements, but leaving another part of the EU under the new. Does anybody know what the transition arrangements will be? Both UK and EU websites seem remarkably silent about arrangements for those already in the EU when the new arrangements come into force.

Notwithstanding the reported delay to the introduction of the EES, this situation seems adequately covered on the official EES website.

If you arrive at a border crossing point for the first time since the EES started

You will have to provide your personal data. Passport control officers will scan your fingerprints or take a photo of your face. This information will be recorded in a digital file.

Your passport (biometric or non-biometric) will not be stamped.

This process can be quicker if you register some of your data in advance. You can do this by using:

• the dedicated equipment (“self-service system”), if available at your border crossing point; and/or
• a mobile application - if made available by the country of arrival or departure.

In any of the instances above, you will meet a passport control officer.

 

[Belperpete]

Notwithstanding the reported delay to the introduction of the EES, this situation seems adequately covered on the official EES website.

The whole point of this thread is that statement on the EES website fails to address some fairly fundamental issues that I pointed out in post #1, that you have only half quoted:

"According to the EU site, they will no longer be stamping passports. But that would mean I will have an entry stamp in my passport, but no exit stamp, which could potentially cause problems in future. And as my fingerprints won't have been recorded on entry, will that cause me any issues with leaving?"

Both UK and EU websites press the importance of getting an exit stamp to match with your entry stamp, as otherwise on a future visit you could be treated as having overstayed your previous visit. But here they are saying that they are suspending all stamping. But no mention that they are suspending checks on entry requirements.

Okay, the system has been delayed yet again, but for something that was due to come into force in a few days, you would have hoped that they might have given some guidance on this.

 

[Struner]

[…]
Spain has been messing about with Gibraltar since 1704. […]

Oh, I love it

 

[popeter45]

being a rail forum suprised nobody has suggested a rail link to gibraltar to enable direct UK-Gib rail services

 

[kkong]

The whole point of this thread is that statement on the EES website fails to address some fairly fundamental issues that I pointed out in post #1, that you have only half quoted:

"According to the EU site, they will no longer be stamping passports. But that would mean I will have an entry stamp in my passport, but no exit stamp, which could potentially cause problems in future. And as my fingerprints won't have been recorded on entry, will that cause me any issues with leaving?"

Both UK and EU websites press the importance of getting an exit stamp to match with your entry stamp, as otherwise on a future visit you could be treated as having overstayed your previous visit. But here they are saying that they are suspending all stamping. But no mention that they are suspending checks on entry requirements.

Okay, the system has been delayed yet again, but for something that was due to come into force in a few days, you would have hoped that they might have given some guidance on this.

I'm not sure what you're struggling with.

The EES site is perfectly clear what will happen in your scenario.

You would have your biometrics taken, the passport would not be stamped but your border crossing would be recorded in the EES.

As you would then be in EES, there's no possibility of you having any problems when crossing the border in the future.

 

[Chester1]

I'm not sure what you're struggling with.

The EES site is perfectly clear what will happen in your scenario.

You would have your biometrics taken, the passport would not be stamped but your border crossing would be recorded in the EES.

As you would then be in EES, there's no possibility of you having any problems when crossing the border in the future.

I think he means what happens with 90 day calculation because he could appear to EES has having been in schengen for an unknown period of time. I would guess that if you first use EES on exiting Schengen then it won't flag you has having potentially overstayed.

 

[zero]

They could just continue to stamp out for the first 6 months.