Notice for prosecution

[elmooreo]

On 31st August I needed to travel from Brighton to London for a wedding. My intention was to get a Thameslink train but when I arrived at the station it was cancelled. I still just about had enough time to get on the Gatwick Express train departing 5 mins before the cancelled service. I’ve got an annual season ticket so used that to get through the barriers, and once on the train went to buy a ticket on the Trainline app as my season ticket doesn’t cover GE services. As the train had just departed it wouldn’t allow me to select Brighton as origin, so I selected Haywards Heath, paid but then the ticket came up as a code to collect at machine rather than display on phone. A team of revenue protection officers collared me on the train between Haywards Heath and Gatwick. The lady was perfectly pleasant but wouldn’t accept the code as a fare, and said she still had to write up the fact I was travelling without the physical ticket. She gave me a form, told me to collect the tickets at Victoria and then upload to Govia website as proof, and it would all get wiped - which I did and received confirm of upload email. Had totally forgotten about it all until yesterday - I’ve been sent a letter threatening prosecution, asking me to write again in my own words what happened. Any adice on what to do? Still have photos of the ticket and the Trainline confirm email etc which I can send again but assume they have already seen it all and don’t accept the explanation? Thanks

 

[Gloster]

Please post the letter and any other correspondence in this thread. Please obscure your name, address and any other identifying details, such as reference numbers.

 

[Blinkbonny]

Are you saying that you bought a ticket for shorter than your actual journey?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@elmooreo. As well as the uncollected ticket from Haywards Heath to London (Victoria), did you have any valid ticket for the portion of your journey from Brighton to Haywards Heath? Moot point as to whether a route "Thameslink Only" season ticket (if that's what you had) is valid for trains branded 'Southern Gatwick Express'.

 

[elmooreo]

No…as I said it was all a rush but I thought best possible ticket was better than no ticket. The app wouldn’t let me set Brighton as origin as the train had just departed by the time I got to pay for the ticket. Totally understand Im at fault here despite best intentions. Officer on the train was sympathetic and said this would all go away and now I’m being threatened with court!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2024 ==

 

[Blinkbonny]

Yes, it's a poor show, but you were in the wrong on two counts.

However that letter is designed to be as intimidating as possible. It is more than likely that the case will be settled by paying the train company a sum of money.

Not great, but better than a day in court!

 

[elmooreo]

I don’t understand why there is no option to pay to settle now? I feel really hard done by here I’m not a chancer who decided to gamble on getting the wrong train. I was late for a wedding and I pay close to £5k per year to the lovely people at Govia Thameslink as it is - I know if you look at it without considering the circumstances Im due a fine or a penalty fair but why isn’t that being offered now?!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2024 ==

Also why does Trainline app sometimes deliver etickets and sometimes issue a code? Why does it not allow the customer to select?

 

[Egg Centric]

What is your season ticket?

 

[elmooreo]

It’s a Thameslink only season ticket Brighton to London Thameslink

 

[MotCO]

You may want to read this thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ress-train-from-london-bridge-to-hove.264076/
There is a long running dispute that Thameslink only is a brand restriction rather than an operator restriction; the later is allowed, the former isn't. The complication may be that London Thameslink is not a destination of Gatwick Express, so may mean your season ticket wasn't valid for the whole journey. Others better versed in this dispute (such as @yorkie ) should be able to comment.
Where did you alight?

 

[elmooreo]

You may want to read this thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ress-train-from-london-bridge-to-hove.264076/
There is a long running dispute that Thameslink only is a brand restriction rather than an operator restriction; the later is allowed, the former isn't. The complication may be that London Thameslink is not a destination of Gatwick Express, so may mean your season ticket wasn't valid for the whole journey. Others better versed in this dispute (such as @yorkie ) should be able to comment.
Where did you alight?

At Victoria but remember I also had the ticket from Haywards Heath to Victoria just not printed out. Thanks for the pointer.

 

[30907]

I don’t understand why there is no option to pay to settle now?

If you mean a Penalty Fare which you can settle on the spot, not collecting the ticket and short-faring are both suspicious behaviours, and train companies now routinely investigate people's travel history to see if there is any pattern, and for that they need your details.
Assuming they find nothing else, I would expect GTR to offer a settlement if you write apologetically (see posts by @Hadders for suggestions) and their admin fee is often not much more than a PF.

Also why does Trainline app sometimes deliver etickets and sometimes issue a code? Why does it not allow the customer to select?

It's not AFAIK their fault, but the train operator. For example TfL still don't accept e-tickets, and that affects nearly all cross-London journeys as well as destinations on the tube.

 

[Fermiboson]

You may want to read this thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ress-train-from-london-bridge-to-hove.264076/
There is a long running dispute that Thameslink only is a brand restriction rather than an operator restriction; the later is allowed, the former isn't. The complication may be that London Thameslink is not a destination of Gatwick Express, so may mean your season ticket wasn't valid for the whole journey. Others better versed in this dispute (such as @yorkie ) should be able to comment.
Where did you alight?

But it would still be valid at the point the ticket was inspected, before the last stop into London, irrespective of the London Terminals / London Thameslink distinction.

The Haywards Heath to London ticket is not relevant here - you didn't have it, and a collection code is not a ticket. Any argument that OP is not guilty has to rely on the Brighton to London season ticket. I fail to see, however, how the Brighton to London ticket isn't a valid one here.

That said, OP did not *display* said ticket to the inspector, and thus is likely actually guilty of Byelaw 18(2):

a person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person

GTR are a pragmatic company and as such it is probably less hassle for the OP to write politely asking for a settlement along the lines we usually advise, without mentioning the existence of the Brighton season ticket. That does however depend on how much you value your money and time.

 

[Hadders]

It’s a Thameslink only season ticket Brighton to London Thameslink

I'm sure @yorkie will be interested in this case.

I don’t understand why there is no option to pay to settle now? I feel really hard done by here I’m not a chancer who decided to gamble on getting the wrong train. I was late for a wedding and I pay close to £5k per year to the lovely people at Govia Thameslink as it is - I know if you look at it without considering the circumstances Im due a fine or a penalty fair but why isn’t that being offered now?!

Technically your season ticket is valid as far as Gatwick Airport because train operators are not permitted to have tickets that are restricted by Brand but they can sell tickets restricted by train operating company.

Tickets to London Thameslink are not valid to Victoria (although opinions on this do differ), so if the train you caught was non-stop between Gatwick and Victoria your ticket would've been valid as far as Gatwick where you would have needed to change to a train that was going to one of the 'London Thameslink' stations.

Notwithstanding that the ticket was valid, GTR always write asking for your version of events before they decide whether or not to offer an out of court settlement.

 

[furlong]

Multiple considerations here:

Intended train was cancelled, so you caught an alternative service. Did you explain that to the inspector? (The train company ought to have made alternative arrangements due to the cancellation, such as permitting travel on the train you used so as to minimise delay.)

Did you show your season ticket to the inspector? (If not, there's a forgotten season ticket process.)

If you take the view that the season ticket was in fact valid - and there are proceedings trying to determine the correct legal answer to that question - then you were mislead into thinking you had to purchase that particular second ticket.

 

[Fermiboson]

Would it be a possible line of argument for the TOC to make that, despite OP being in possession of a valid ticket at the time of inspection, the purchase of the ticket from Haywards Heath shows an intent to avoid paying the correct fare (even though the passenger was unaware that the correct fare had already been paid) and hence qualifies as an RoRA 5.3(a) offence?

 

[elmooreo]

So should I just recount all the details, similar to the original post and then at the end just apologise? I did show my season ticket to the revenue officer which she dismissed. Just apologise and re-in force that I had best intentions of trying to pay the correct fair? Or should I try and argue?

 

[mad_rich]

There's a perfectly reasonable explanation here.

You arrived at Brighton in good time for your Thameslink train. On arrival, you discovered that it had been cancelled, so you made the split-second decision to board the Gatwick Express, with hope that your season ticket would be at least partially valid, and an intention to clarify/ correct that once safely onboard.

Once onboard, you incorrectly concluded your season wasn't valid. In fact it was valid at least until Gatwick Airport, and you could have presumably purchased a ticket from the guard for Gatwick-Victoria?

Instead, you mistakenly attempted to buy a new ticket from Brighton. And the fact that you were unable to do so lead to your next mistake - buying from Haywards Heath. And then your next mistake after that - buying a ticket that ticket that needed to be collected. And then your fourth mistake - showing the inspector your Haywards Heath booking, instead of your season.

That all seems like reasonable behaviour by somebody ruffled by an unexpected cancellation.

 

[Hadders]

So should I just recount all the details, similar to the original post and then at the end just apologise? I did show my season ticket to the revenue officer which she dismissed. Just apologise and re-in force that I had best intentions of trying to pay the correct fair? Or should I try and argue?

I think @yorkie will take a very keen interest in this case so I’d wait to see what he says.

 

[MotCO]

That said, OP did not *display* said ticket to the inspector, and thus is likely actually guilty of Byelaw 18(2):

The OP has confirmed in #17 that he showed the season ticket to the inspector but she was not interested.

 

[elmooreo]

you could have presumably purchased a ticket from the guard for Gatwick-Victoria?

It wasn’t a ticket inspector but a revenue protection officer - it’s either a penalty or not in their eyes I think. She was very sympathetic and didn’t issue a penalty at the time. She seemed to imply it was just a formality and that on uploading the tickets once printed out the whole thing would disappear.

 

[Fermiboson]

The OP has confirmed in #17 that he showed the season ticket to the inspector but she was not interested.

In which case I fail to see how OP was guilty of any offence.

I still don’t know if it’s worth the time to argue, or the chances of success when doing so however.

 

[Haywain]

I still don’t know if it’s worth the time to argue, or the chances of success when doing so however.

The OP has an opportunity to explain what happened to GTR. It is not yet at the stage of 'argument'.