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Public perception of railways

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dk1

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As I’ve said before, GA was (nearly) unique in this respeect because the local reps wanted to keep doing the training. This was not the case almost everywhere else.

Yes there was excellent cooperation from all sides on that during the pandemic. The only hiccup we have now is on the west where drivers are jumping over the fence to TSGN. On the east things are in such a healthy state that we have a qualified link of trained drivers that are over establishment.
 
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dangie

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Can't argue with the statistics but in reality, although too many people do die on the roads, the chances of death or serious injury on any given trip are low enough that most people don't think about it.
This is true. Compare the number of people who travel in motor vehicles each day against the number of people who travel on the train each day, the chances of being involved in a road accident are extremely small. This along with the convenience and above all reliability of the motor vehicle, makes road travel a no-brainer.
 

eastdyke

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I just tried the same. Put ’Train to Manchester’ into the search bar, clicked on the first result (trainline) put in London to Manchester, leaving at 0900, ticked open return, and got offered 4 prices, the recommended one being £54 with one change, £109 no changes. If I was being price concious, I‘d check the restrictions (which are clearly marked) and go for one of those depending on how quickly i needed to get there. Why would I do anything else?
Your challenge, should you choose to accept it, is Selby - Doncaster. [similar to the issue faced upthread by @Donny Dave ].

You did look at Brfares and found a suitable ticket - but you didn't look for any suitable trains!

It is the only journey that I have ever made without a valid ticket - having been mis-sold my itinerary via Gilberdyke [GBD] [the quickest journey at the time of travel] by the [TPE] ticket office despite me clearly and repeatedly stating my intentions.
 

Retorus

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Sat on a train at Man Vic.

Delayed start - over ten minutes since we were supposed to leave.

No one- not a single person in authority has bothered to update us.

This sums up why people don't choose the train.
It does feel like the vast majority of staff I come across can't be bothered when it comes to updating passengers.
 

dangie

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It does feel like the vast majority of staff I come across can't be bothered when it comes to updating passengers.
It may be their job, but I do have sympathy with staff having to tell passengers that their train will be delayed or cancelled. Not so bad of course if it is a faceless station loudspeaker announcement, but unpleasant for the train manager who will then have to encounter dissatisfied or even angry passengers.
 

GordonT

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It may be their job, but I do have sympathy with staff having to tell passengers that their train will be delayed or cancelled. Not so bad of course if it is a faceless station loudspeaker announcement, but unpleasant for the train manager who will then have to encounter dissatisfied or even angry passengers.
Especially if it's additional and worsening bad news and if the employee who is having to relay the information is not particularly impressed themself with the decision making process which has led to the unfolding scenario.
 

43066

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I think that’s how many people view the railway, and HS2 and Crossrail have rather proved it!
I haven’t seen a decent argument why the taxpayer should waste money on a fares simplification with no losers yet.

Crossrail being a runaway success that will repay its costs in short order, and delivers enormous benefits to the areas it serves. Presumably you don’t believe it should have been built!

There are parts of the railway that deserve subsidy, a blanket fares subsidy is not one of them.
If subsidy of rail services was so popular then rail folk wouldn’t need to be so keen on price gouging popular lines to hide the subsidy on the basket cases.

The subsidy provided is not “blanket”.

Your own position appears to he inconsistent as you’re criticising the railway being subsidised by the taxpayer, but also appear to be complaining at the longstanding policy of loading more of the cost of operating the railway onto fare payers.

As for the wider point of whether taxpayers want to subsidise the railway and other areas, your own view is out of step with the majority; there are plenty or social attitudes surveys to show that people are generally willing to pay more for good public services. For those who aren’t, there’s always the option to emigrate to somewhere like Dubai or the USA.


A majority of people in Britain are still in favour of higher taxation and government spending, according to the latest British Social Attitudes survey.

Support for increased taxation and spending is relatively high among both Conservative and Labour supporters.
 
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Broucek

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It may be their job, but I do have sympathy with staff having to tell passengers that their train will be delayed or cancelled. Not so bad of course if it is a faceless station loudspeaker announcement, but unpleasant for the train manager who will then have to encounter dissatisfied or even angry passengers.
I genuinely empathise. But the nature of work is that one sometimes has to do things one dislikes. That's why we have to get paid for doing it...
 

DJ_K666

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Certain areas of BR, usually the ones controlled by Chris Green and others like him, thought that customer care was something to be invested in rather than a soft target for cuts. One example - highly visible welcome hosts/hostesses in bright red jackets at major stations selected for their personable nature and communication skills as well as their knowledge of the station and railway operations. The best of these people would always be proactive in looking out for bemused or anxious looking customers to offer assistance or information.
Nowadays the "Blackpool North" prison door welcome approach seems
I think it'd be best for Northern to scrap that approach and threaten exile to places like Blackpool South if their attitudes don't improve.

I still haven't forgotten that defibrillator story.

Or the attempt to slander a passenger who was 'too slow' off the platform.

I'm not sure but it does seem to be a 'Blackpool' thing.
 
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robert thomas

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This sort of thinking skirts round a major problem in relation to perception of railways. To explain my point, think about me and flying. To be quite clear, I am not a frequent flier - my last trip by air was to Prague for a weekend in 2017 and someone else bought the tickets.

Previously I had been to High Street travel agents, generally Thomas Cook because it had a branch locally, who had looked after 'everything' that was alien to me - flights, transfers, hotel and currency. For all I know they were ripping me off but it was all very simple with one bill to pay.

Previously, work flights had been organised by my employer's travel agent.

Back in the 1980s I worked in London and knew that you had to walk into the British Airways, Air Canada or whatever office and book a ticket many weeks in advance. I have even done walk-up tickets at an airport for very local flights between Scottish islands back then.

So if I wanted to or 'had to' fly to somewhere right now I wouldn't have a clue what to do. My perception of air travel (backed up by a high proportion of nightmare journeys and experiences over the decades) is that it is utterly vile. I will be lured on by apparently cheap but inflexible fares, discover that I can only take minimal luggage, will have to get the the airport at least three hours before a flight at an excruciatingly unattractive time (so probably an overnight stay near the airport), spend ages dragging through security and have to turn out my luggage because there's a metal bookmark in it or something, invariably fail automatic passport checks because I don't seem to bear any resemblance to my photo, will wait hours for a delayed take-off, be wedged in the middle of a row between two overweight strangers, arrive at at a strange airport in the middle of nowhere at another unsociable hour only to find hoards of rip-off and scamming taxi touts wanting to take me to my destination. And that assuming that there aren't further massive queues and delays at immigration and baggage reclaim.

That is my perception. But oddly people that I know actually seem to enjoy and look forward to travelling on holiday by air. Beats me!


And 'No' I wouldn't know how much the journey would cost in advance (beyond the fact that it wouldn't be anything like the same as the 'flash' in a newspaper ad or on a billboard).
That basically sums up my view of air travel.
 

Krokodil

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This is true. Compare the number of people who travel in motor vehicles each day against the number of people who travel on the train each day, the chances of being involved in a road accident are extremely small. This along with the convenience and above all reliability of the motor vehicle, makes road travel a no-brainer.
Not forgetting that a large chunk of the hazard that motor vehicles pose is inflicted upon people who weren't in them in the first place. People feel safe in their own metal box, stuff the rest.

It does feel like the vast majority of staff I come across can't be bothered when it comes to updating passengers.
Or maybe they know no more than the passengers do. "We're stopped here at a red signal. I've no idea why..."
 

Goldfish62

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Or maybe they know no more than the passengers do. "We're stopped here at a red signal. I've no idea why..."
Which is exactly what SWR guards say in such instances, and then provide a further update once they've heard from the driver. Far preferable to silence.
 

Sealink

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Another story confirming that in many respects, the railway has lost its way.

It's about a teenager fined £52 for not having a ticket.
According to the family
- The ticket machine at Bradford upon Avon was out of order
- The conductor/guard was not available on the train - I don't think this line does single driver working - so this could be the crunch of the matter.
- He want to someone at Bath and asked where he could buy a ticket
- FINED.


It's the totally corporate response from GWR which I find annoying, and the assumption* that everyone without a ticket is a deliberate fare dodger. It ignores the fact that if you believe the passenger, he did try to buy a ticket!

A GWR spokesperson denied they were targeting teenagers and said: “It’s every passenger’s responsibility to ensure they buy a ticket before they board, or at the first available opportunity if they cannot.

“Failure to buy a ticket when the opportunity exists may result in a penalty fare.”


*My perception




A Wiltshire mum has accused train operator GWR of targeting teenagers after her son was fined £52 for not having a valid rail ticket despite claiming he had tried three times to buy one.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

In other news, there is a thread on Flyer Talk (someone last year posted about this forum!) about their experience of railways. It's grim reading.

 
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nanstallon

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Another story confirming that in many respects, the railway has lost its way.

It's about a teenager fined £52 for not having a ticket.
According to the family
- The ticket machine at Bradford upon Avon was out of order
- The conductor/guard was not available on the train - I don't think this line does single driver working - so this could be the crunch of the matter.
- He want to someone at Bath and asked where he could buy a ticket
- FINED.


It's the totally corporate response from GWR which I find annoying, and the assumption* that everyone without a ticket is a deliberate fare dodger. It ignores the fact that if you believe the passenger, he did try to buy a ticket!

A GWR spokesperson denied they were targeting teenagers and said: “It’s every passenger’s responsibility to ensure they buy a ticket before they board, or at the first available opportunity if they cannot.

“Failure to buy a ticket when the opportunity exists may result in a penalty fare.”


*My perception




== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

In other news, there is a thread on Flyer Talk (someone last year posted about this forum!) about their experience of railways. It's grim reading.

Well, that another youngster who will be saving up for his first car. When will the railways stop treating customers as the enemy?
 

urbophile

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Was that policy not driven as much by more people being able to afford cars and therefore deserting public transport? Growing up in the 60s my family went on holiday by train (and yes, we were delayed sometimes as well!), but after finally being able to afford a (used) car around 1970..... we never went on holiday by train again. Not because of any Government policy, simply because the car was far more flexible and, for a family of 5, cheaper.
Both/and surely. You'd have thought that a sensible government, faced with lack of demand for public transport, would actually make using the latter easier and not more difficult. The Thatcherite spitefulness forbidding co-operation and co-ordination was perverse in the extreme and further disadvantaged those already disadvantaged because they couldn't afford or were otherwise unable to drive.
 

3141

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I'm not aware that the concept of a (national, multi-mode, integrated) public transport system really existed in the UK prior to 1945, at which point the Labour Party started to talk about such a thing explicitly and developed an Act and organisation to deliver it. Anyway, I wasn't around. Sorry.
A national, multi-mode, integrated public transport system is easy to say but many people haven't a clue what it might mean in reality. The same with "fit (or not) for purpose". There has never been a national multi-mode integrated public transport system in Britain either before or after 1945. There were more public transport routes available in the past, by train or bus, but very many of those were infrequent and some operated on only a few days a week. Journeys made by them were slow and took a long time. You had to adapt your travelling plans to fit the limited availability of the services you wanted to use.

Was that policy not driven as much by more people being able to afford cars and therefore deserting public transport? Growing up in the 60s my family went on holiday by train (and yes, we were delayed sometimes as well!), but after finally being able to afford a (used) car around 1970..... we never went on holiday by train again. Not because of any Government policy, simply because the car was far more flexible and, for a family of 5, cheaper.

Absolutely, spot-on, dead right. Those who try to blame Mrs Thatcher for everything have their heads in the sand. Cars enabled people to take their holidays at places unreachable by train, and led to the huge growth of more rural self-catering and other holiday establishments; and also enabled people to visit places to which no bus or day coach tour went, or more than one such place in a single day. People go to places by car because they like it.

There's a great deal of pie-in-the-sky rose-tinted spectacles stuff about what public transport might do and how much better it was in the past.
 

Sealink

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Well, that another youngster who will be saving up for his first car. When will the railways stop treating customers as the enemy?

I totally agree. I've had run ins with staff over the years, because I knew the rules better than they did. Admittedly obscure rules, like the long gone Gold Card First Class upgrade on the Paddington Worcester line, various easements etc.

I'm taking National Express from Dorchester to London next month because you know what, my perception is, it's going to be easier...

I was someone who every day off went on a train trip... now... I just want to get the bus.
 

nanstallon

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A national, multi-mode, integrated public transport system is easy to say but many people haven't a clue what it might mean in reality. The same with "fit (or not) for purpose". There has never been a national multi-mode integrated public transport system in Britain either before or after 1945. There were more public transport routes available in the past, by train or bus, but very many of those were infrequent and some operated on only a few days a week. Journeys made by them were slow and took a long time. You had to adapt your travelling plans to fit the limited availability of the services you wanted to use.



Absolutely, spot-on, dead right. Those who try to blame Mrs Thatcher for everything have their heads in the sand. Cars enabled people to take their holidays at places unreachable by train, and led to the huge growth of more rural self-catering and other holiday establishments; and also enabled people to visit places to which no bus or day coach tour went, or more than one such place in a single day. People go to places by car because they like it.

There's a great deal of pie-in-the-sky rose-tinted spectacles stuff about what public transport might do and how much better it was in the past.

A national, multi-mode, integrated public transport system is easy to say but many people haven't a clue what it might mean in reality. The same with "fit (or not) for purpose". There has never been a national multi-mode integrated public transport system in Britain either before or after 1945. There were more public transport routes available in the past, by train or bus, but very many of those were infrequent and some operated on only a few days a week. Journeys made by them were slow and took a long time. You had to adapt your travelling plans to fit the limited availability of the services you wanted to use.



Absolutely, spot-on, dead right. Those who try to blame Mrs Thatcher for everything have their heads in the sand. Cars enabled people to take their holidays at places unreachable by train, and led to the huge growth of more rural self-catering and other holiday establishments; and also enabled people to visit places to which no bus or day coach tour went, or more than one such place in a single day. People go to places by car because they like it.

There's a great deal of pie-in-the-sky rose-tinted spectacles stuff about what public transport might do and how much better it was in the past.
You only need to look at timetables from the 60s, 70s and 80s to realise that public transport was very inconvenient, even though there were (at least pre-Beeching) rather more routes available. I recall the Fairford branch before closure in 1962 - first train from Fairford at 12 noon! And fares were in relation to average income quite high. People were only too glad to enjoy the freedom of having their own transport. These days, trains and buses are more frequent albeit on fewer routes.
 

43066

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I totally agree. I've had run ins with staff over the years, because I knew the rules better than they did. Admittedly obscure rules, like the long gone Gold Card First Class upgrade on the Paddington Worcester line, various easements etc.

A point to make here is that staff training is woefully inadequate, especially given the system’s complexity. You may well respond “that isn’t my problem”, and you’d be quite right, but it’s the reality nonetheless.

Indeed I have experienced a similar issue myself presenting my rail staff travel smart card, which holds my season ticket, during LU ticket acceptance, which LU staff often don’t recognise because they have no idea what it is. It’s frustrating, and some staff deal better with than others, for sure.
 

trainophile

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I was on a 6-coach TPE on Thursday and, rather than too many announcements, there were actually none. Not a "welcome aboard, we will be calling at...", nothing as we approached each stop, not even major ones like York and Leeds, not even on arrival at Man Victoria. Just total radio silence. The guard did walk through once (in a nearly three hour journey) doing a perfunctory ticket check, but then disappeared again. Even when it became evident that we were going to arrive significantly late, not a word. If there were any visually impaired people on board who were travelling alone I hope they had some help from someone.

Benefit of the doubt, maybe the PA in our coach wasn't working, but it really made for a most peculiar journey. Even the scrolling overhead displays were just black and blank. It was like being in a different world from the usual cacophony. Have to say it was quite pleasant, but weird all the same, and could have confused infrequent travellers on that route.
 

birchesgreen

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I'd just like to say i travelled on 6 trains today (WMR, XC and EMR) and had excellent service on all of them, though the second EMR service was a bit full. :D
 

Adrian1980uk

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Then say that, rather than leaving passengers in silence.

On GA Liverpool street to Norwich service, they actually said that.. apparently it was vegetation as they announced later on.

In the vast majority of cases, the cause of the delay is of 0 significance, the question is how long and what time will I get to the destination. I've taken the view that what we're told as passengers as to the reason is so filtered you can't really read much into it.
 

GordonT

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I'm taking National Express from Dorchester to London next month because you know what, my perception is, it's going to be easier...
At least you will be fairly confident of the journey operating and of securing a seat.
 

Krokodil

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Was that policy not driven as much by more people being able to afford cars and therefore deserting public transport? Growing up in the 60s my family went on holiday by train (and yes, we were delayed sometimes as well!), but after finally being able to afford a (used) car around 1970..... we never went on holiday by train again. Not because of any Government policy, simply because the car was far more flexible and, for a family of 5, cheaper.
Government policy enabled those choices. Remember that the man running down the railways had a financial interest in motorway construction. The railway suffered from a lack of investment postwar, and when money was forthcoming in 1955 there was no national strategy for how it should be spent. The BR standard programme was supposed to be a stopgap while a rolling electrification programme got up to speed. The standards should have had 30 years of work, being cascaded from region to region as electric trains displaced them from each route in turn (plus DMUs on rural branchlines). In reality there were several years of dithering, then a lot of the Modernisation Programme funding was blown on diesel locomotives which didn't work, with only a few electrification schemes going ahead. It shouldn't have taken until 1991 for the ECML to be fully electrified, it shouldn't have taken until 2016 before non-Heathrow electric trains started running out of Paddington. We shouldn't still have an unelectrified London termini.

Then say that, rather than leaving passengers in silence.
I await the thread on here moaning about pointless announcements. Can't win.
 

Broucek

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Government policy enabled those choices. Remember that the man running down the railways had a financial interest in motorway construction. The railway suffered from a lack of investment postwar, and when money was forthcoming in 1955 there was no national strategy for how it should be spent. The BR standard programme was supposed to be a stopgap while a rolling electrification programme got up to speed. The standards should have had 30 years of work, being cascaded from region to region as electric trains displaced them from each route in turn (plus DMUs on rural branchlines). In reality there were several years of dithering, then a lot of the Modernisation Programme funding was blown on diesel locomotives which didn't work, with only a few electrification schemes going ahead. It shouldn't have taken until 1991 for the ECML to be fully electrified, it shouldn't have taken until 2016 before non-Heathrow electric trains started running out of Paddington. We shouldn't still have an unelectrified London termini.


I await the thread on here moaning about pointless announcements. Can't win.
I've never seen a thread complaining about delay updates. That's not remotely the same as tannoy spam about see-it etc.
 
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