Gresley Pacifics at Manchester (London Road)?

[davyp]

Did Gresley Pacifics visit Manchester London Road on a regular basis prior to the arrival of the Woodhead electric locos?
Thanks in advance
Davy

 

[Sun Chariot]

Hello @davyp
It's worth you asking the question on the LNER.info forum - that's where I've found most LNER-focused expertise.

This link (lner.info thread) has photos of the Woodhead route c.1954. Locos are non-Pacific (B1, V2, J39, etc)

LNER steam on the Woodhead route 1954 - The LNER Encyclopedia

The only photo I have found in the public domain, of an LNER Pacific on the Woodhead, is this wartime shot.
LNER erected the DC gantries on the western side of the line, before hostilities started. No wires went up, though.
A1 doyen 4470 has yet to be "Thompson-ised" into the A1/1.
It's a freight - I suspect not for London Road's through lines.

Gresley L.N.E.R. Pacific No.4470 'Great Northern' on a wartime freight duty passing Woodhead Reservoir,on the Manchester to Sheffield line near Crowden. | PJBrailwayphotos Photo Gallery

pjbrailwayphotos.piwigo.com

 

[507020]

Did they, or did they visit Manchester (Central) which the GCR/LNER also had a stake in? Prior to the arrival of 1500V DC wires, would there have been any precedence for GCR/LNER services to use London Road/Piccadilly? There was certainly no emphasis before nationalisation on concentrating services on a single terminus, but I don’t know what route would have been taken after traversing Woodhead to reach the GNR/ECML to Kings Cross, as opposed to continuing to Marylebone.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Did they visit Manchester (Central)

This useful snippet from another thread on LNER.info forum:

A1s appeared [at Manchester Central] on the Grand National specials during the 1930s, with Pullmans from Kings Cross.
A4 4498 spent five days at Manchester Central from 28 March 1938, as part of an exhibition of modern rolling stock.

 

[Harvester]

Some were allocated to Gorton, and worked Manchester to Marylebone services throughout just prior to WW2.

 

[anothertyke]

Looking at Shed Bash, Donovan, Gay Crusader and Hermit, all A1s at the time, were said to be shedded at Gorton in 1942.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I suspect the reality of the Marylebone expresses - rarely more than 5-6 coaches plus vans, over a pennine route that wasn’t especially steep, nor particularly fast, meant that Pacifics weren’t required for anything except exceptional traffic. Photographs seem to suggest that B1s were fairly standard, with V2s making semi-regular appearances.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Did they, or did they visit Manchester (Central) which the GCR/LNER also had a stake in? Prior to the arrival of 1500V DC wires, would there have been any precedence for GCR/LNER services to use London Road/Piccadilly? There was certainly no emphasis before nationalisation on concentrating services on a single terminus, but I don’t know what route would have been taken after traversing Woodhead to reach the GNR/ECML to Kings Cross, as opposed to continuing to Marylebone.

The Marylebone expresses all ran from London Road pre and post nationalisation, apart from one overnight Liverpool - Marylebone and v.v. which reversed at Central. Liverpool to Hull, Cleethorpes etc. expresses also ran via Central, as did the 'North Country Continental'.

 

[billh]

According to an Ian Allan book: In the summer of 1939, Tracery,Solario and Hermit were allocated to Gorton shed to work some Manchester-Marylebone services. This followed a replacement turntable being installed at Marylebone that could turn the large pacifics.

 

[Spamcan81]

I suspect the reality of the Marylebone expresses - rarely more than 5-6 coaches plus vans, over a pennine route that wasn’t especially steep, nor particularly fast, meant that Pacifics weren’t required for anything except exceptional traffic. Photographs seem to suggest that B1s were fairly standard, with V2s making semi-regular appearances.

After WW2 GC line expresses could load to 11 carriages. Obviously the Woodhead line had been electrified by then but A3s worked into Marylebone from Sheffiled regularly until transferred away in 1957. I realise that none of this answers the OP's question.

 

[The Crab]

After WW2 GC line expresses could load to 11 carriages. Obviously the Woodhead line had been electrified by then but A3s worked into Marylebone from Sheffiled regularly until transferred away in 1957. I realise that none of this answers the OP's question.

It was a good few years (1954?) before electrification was brought into use to Sheffield.

 

[jfollows]

It was a good few years (1954?) before electrification was brought into use to Sheffield.

20 September 1954 (http://www.railwaycodes.org.uk/electrification/dates.shtm)

 

[billh]

20 September 1954 (http://www.railwaycodes.org.uk/electrification/dates.shtm)

Yes , that is correct. The referenced article in my post 9 above claims that Manchester-Sheffield electrification was completed in February 1949 , I don't think the new Woodhead Tunnel construction was even started by then! So we may look with some scepticism on the info. about what engines and when worked the GC services.

 

[jfollows]

Yes , that is correct. The referenced article in my post 9 above claims that Manchester-Sheffield electrification was completed in February 1949 , I don't think the new Woodhead Tunnel construction was even started by then! So we may look with some scepticism on the info. about what engines and when worked the GC services.

Strange that a book would get it so wrong, I have always had “1954” etched in my mind for the completion of the electrification, although in fact a little bit of the work (to Rotherwood) wasn’t finished until January 1955. Anyone claiming 1949 would indeed provoke scepticism as you say.

 

[etr221]

According to an Ian Allan book: In the summer of 1939, Tracery,Solario and Hermit were allocated to Gorton shed to work some Manchester-Marylebone services. This followed a replacement turntable being installed at Marylebone that could turn the large pacifics.

According to the relevant RCTS Locomotive History (LNER Part 2A), Pacifics (then Gresley A1s) started being transferred to the GC section in late 1938, being released from the ECML by the arrival of A4s: by the end of 1939 Gorton had 5, and Neasden 3, when all the principal GC expresses were worked through from Marylebone to Manchester without changing engines. But they were moved away (back to the ECML) by early 1943. But in early 1949 they returned (now as A3s), 6 to Leicester and 3 to Neasden, 'displacing B1s from the main express duties' which I would assume (it doesn't say) took them to Manchester until electrification in 1954 - they finally left the GC in 1957, after the LMR take over.

 

[Magdalia]

in early 1949 they returned (now as A3s), 6 to Leicester and 3 to Neasden, 'displacing B1s from the main express duties' which I would assume (it doesn't say) took them to Manchester until electrification in 1954 - they finally left the GC in 1957, after the LMR take over.

The last bit is the wrong way round. The Great Central was transferred to the LMR in 1958 and the ER pulled the A3s off the Great Central before the change to make sure that they were not included in the handover.

 

[Harvester]

The last bit is the wrong way round. The Great Central was transferred to the LMR in 1958 and the ER pulled the A3s off the Great Central before the change to make sure that they were not included in the handover.

Especially as authorisation to fit them with Kylchap exhausts and double chimneys came around that time!

 

[Sun Chariot]

Hello @davidnicholson
Do you have any links to reference photos of A1 or A3 on the ex-GC from Marylebone, or over the Pennines, to Manchester London Road? To evidence the points you make in your post?

The only photo I found (post #2 has links) was A1 4470 on a freight over Woodhead - very unlikely it routed through MLR.

Posts #6 and #9 of this thread mention the A1s allocated to Gorton shed, for the ex-GC Marylebone - Manchester turns:
2546 Donovan
4477 Gay Crusader
4478 Hermit
4473 Solario
2558 Tracery
Here's 4473 at Nottingham Victoria, en route to London from Manchester.

2 Solario

Pacific No.4473, ‘Solario’, pauses at Nottingham Victoria on May 31, 1939, on a through locomotive working from Manchester to Marylebone. (J.F.Henton

chasewaterstuff2.wordpress.com

Post #4 (source lner.info) is of A1s into Manchester Central

 

[anothertyke]

Hello @davidnicholson
Do you have any links to reference photos of A1 or A3 on the ex-GC from Marylebone, or over the Pennines, to Manchester London Road? To evidence the points you make in your post?

The only photo I found (post #2 has links) was A1 4470 on a freight over Woodhead - very unlikely it routed through MLR.

Posts #7 and #9 of this thread mention the A1s allocated to Gorton shed, for the ex-GC Marylebone - Manchester turns:
2546 Donovan
4477 Gay Crusader
4478 Hermit
4473 Solario
2558 Tracery
Here's 4473 at Nottingham Victoria, en route to London from Manchester.

2 Solario

Pacific No.4473, ‘Solario’, pauses at Nottingham Victoria on May 31, 1939, on a through locomotive working from Manchester to Marylebone. (J.F.Henton

chasewaterstuff2.wordpress.com

Post #4 (source lner.info) is of A1s into Manchester Central

1939

Another set of notes from C W Heaps of Manchester, plus GWR sightings from an unknown spotter who seems to concentrate on trips to South Wales. A few numbers from both books do have what appears to…

spottinglogs.co.uk

have a look at this. I can see 2558 Tracery and 4478 Hermit at Gorton shed/works.

 

[Sun Chariot]

1939

Another set of notes from C W Heaps of Manchester, plus GWR sightings from an unknown spotter who seems to concentrate on trips to South Wales. A few numbers from both books do have what appears to…

spottinglogs.co.uk

have a look at this. I can see 2558 Tracery and 4478 Hermit at Gorton shed/works.

Good find and good sleuthing! That is a monumental list. A shame no info of what service A1 2568 Sceptre was on.

 

[anothertyke]

Good find and good sleuthing! That is a monumental list. A shame no info of what service A1 2568 Sceptre was on.

sorry I edited my post because I realised 2568 at London Rd was almost certainly an LMS loco.

 

[Taunton]

Aside from London Road, I can only recall seeing LNER Pacifics at Manchester Victoria. Actually they might have been rolling through to stop at Exchange. York locos, on summer reliefs coming through Leeds. I wonder if they ever went right through to Liverpool.

 

[Harvester]

A1 2568 Sceptre was allocated to York from Dec 36 until May 42 (when it entered works for rebuilding to Class A3). In fact the loco was never allocated to a GC depot.

 

[anothertyke]

A1 2568 Sceptre was allocated to York from Dec 36 until May 42 (when it entered works for rebuilding to Class A3). In fact the loco was never allocated to a GC depot.

So is post 19 correct in terms of the A1s based at Gorton in the 36 to 42 period? And would it be true to say that any A1s based at Gorton would have been there primarily to operate London trains out of Manchester London Road?

 

[etr221]

So is post 19 correct in terms of the A1s based at Gorton in the 36 to 42 period? And would it be true to say that any A1s based at Gorton would have been there primarily to operate London trains out of Manchester London Road?

My understanding is that A1s were not allocate to Gorton until 1938-39, and stayed there until 1942-43. And yes, it would be true to say that any A1s based at Gorton would have been there primarily to operate London trains out of Manchester London Road - why else might they have been there?

 

[davyp]

Many thanks everybody - all confirms that Manchester in 40s, 50s and 60s was a very interesting place in railway terms.

DavyP

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Good find and good sleuthing! That is a monumental list. A shame no info of what service A1 2568 Sceptre was on.

Just to add that my Marylebone-Manchester sleeper trip was in 1963/4.
Steam to Nottingham Vic, where the whistle of a class 40 took over.
By then steam was banned in the new Woodhead tunnel, so no chance of an all-steam run.

 

[gc4946]

Several Gresley pacifics were based at Gorton 1924-1925, a few first entered service there, but all transferred away after a few months or even sooner according to BRDatabase (locos allocated at Gorton).
Locos allocated were 2543/44/45, 2550/51/53/55/57/58/59/60/61 (pre-1946 numbering)

BRDatabase, locomotive allocations, withdrawals and scrapping details in the UK

Locomotive history, railway statistics, steam, diesel and electric locomotives UK

www.brdatabase.info

 

[anothertyke]

Several Gresley pacifics were based at Gorton 1924-1925, a few first entered service there, but all transferred away after a few months or even sooner according to BRDatabase (locos allocated at Gorton).
Locos allocated were 2543/44/45, 2550/51/53/55/57/58/59/60/61 (pre-1946 numbering)

BRDatabase, locomotive allocations, withdrawals and scrapping details in the UK

Locomotive history, railway statistics, steam, diesel and electric locomotives UK

www.brdatabase.info

And that database confirms post 18 is correct in saying that 2546/2558/4473/7/8 were all allocated to Gorton at some time in the 1938-42 period.

 

[Bevan Price]

The Foxline books about the Woodhead route (Volumes 1&2) include 1953/54 photos of A3s at Manchester London Road, Sheffield Victoria & several intermediate locations. Included is a photo of 60103 Flying Scotsman near Guide Bridge. Typical train formation was about 10 ex-LNER coaches. Other classes seen were V2 2-6-2, K3 2-6-0, B17 4-6-0, plus various ex-GCR 4-4-0s, 4-4-2s and 4-6-0s; however the majority of photos from the 1940s & 1950s featured B1 4-6-0s.

Surprisingly, one 1954 photo shows a Class 04 2-8-0 on an express originating from Manchester Central.