Railcard time restriction - delayed train, daft questions

[Lockwood]

I remember back in NSE days spending a lot of time at in the ticket office/waiting room at Fratton and there was a sign taped to the glass of the seller window that said something along the lines of "Network Railcards are not valid on the 0958 to Waterloo"

Nice, clear, simple, unambiguous. Except it did always make me wonder...

You have a ticket using a Railcard that you are entitled to use and it is valid on that route.
The train is delayed by three minutes. Is your ticket now valid on this train?

Working on the assumption that the ticket is valid, as you are travelling after 10... The train makes up the extra time somehow.
Someone checks your ticket when the train is back on time but was not present during the delayed bit. Let's say the guard changed, or it is someone on the platform. They know that this train is scheduled to leave before railcards are valid (they don't have knowledge of the full time table, but they know that tickets from X,Y,Z on this train are common problems). Would you be likely to have issues?
Let's step back in time to NSE era (so nobody has a smartphone app they can use to check or get an email on the train with extra information). Would you have more trouble now since they may not have knowledge of the late running at the start of the journey?

I am aware that you could get a return from Fratton and start your journey at Havant because you needed to go further down the line afterwards - this would also give you a ticket that would trigger the sniff test.


And I suppose that opens up another question. Let's say that Bob got on the 0958 at Fratton, which was on time, with a railcard ticket. Boards the other end of the train to the guard.
By the time the guard gets to him, the train has made another stop.
"This ticket is from Fratton. This ticket can't be used. Where did you get on?"
"Hilsea. After 10."
I'm guessing that staff have a cunning plan for people like Bob?


And one last daft question. Let's say the 0958 got in at 0958, but didn't leave until 1000 because Fred was stood with one foot on the platform and one on the train to deliberately delay the service. Fred would be a complete and utter [redacted] for doing that, and I could imagine a lot of annoyed customers. What would happen to Fred?


(I have been on a bus just before half nine and seen an older gentleman board, get told the machine would not let him use his pass until half past, so he just stood there for two minutes until it was half past and his pass was then valid. So there is a slight basis for that question. And I know a bus is not a train...)

 

[Watershed]

The answer depends on the Railcard used, since it comes down to the wording of the time restrictions in the Railcard terms and conditions.

Network Railcards aren't valid before 10am on weekdays, and this is simply expressed as:

Network Railcard discounts apply for travel at or after 10.00 Monday to Friday

So the scheduled time of the train doesn't matter - it's the actual time of travel/departure that counts. So if there's an 09:58 train you could take it if it were delayed to leave at 10:00 or later, but not if it's on time.

Obviously if the 09:58 pulls into the station at 09:59, it would be the passenger's risk if they chose to board. If the train ended up still leaving at 09:59 their ticket wouldn't be valid.

In practical terms, it is of course possible that in both this situation - as well as that of "starting late" on a ticket - a member of staff might take issue with allegedly using the ticket before 10:00. However, provided the passenger gave an adequate explanation, I don't think there is any right to penalise them.

Any penalty that is nonetheless incorrect applied could be appealed using any evidence the passenger might have. So if they are starting late, they might like to take a picture of themselves at the platform of the station down the line, for example. Or they might want to request CCTV from the train operator.

 

[Lockwood]

I think the sign said network railcard. Back when I saw that, you could take a picture of the train and a clock, but would then have to wait until you finished the roll, send it off, and then sing that old song... Some day my prints will come.

So this is a situation where a late train could mean you can get where you want to go sooner - if we jump to the modern era with online information available you can see the 0958 is going to be at 1001, so you can aim for that instead of the 1028.

 

[Hadders]

I remember back in NSE days spending a lot of time at in the ticket office/waiting room at Drayton and there was a sign taped to the glass of the seller window that said something along the lines of "Railcards are not valid on the 0958 to Waterloo"

There's never been a blanket ban on railcards before 10:00

There always has been a 10:00 ban on weedays with Network (South East) Railcards
Disabled Persons Railcards have always been valid at all times
16-25 (or Young Persons) back in the day was valid at all times but subject to a minimum discounted fare (I remember the first journey using my Young Persons Railcard in 1988 was from Northampton to York departing at something like 05:55)
Senior and F&F Railcards have always been valid at all times except for journeys wholly within the Network (South East) Railcard area where they are not valid until the Off Peak fare is valid (I think this has always been the case since at least NSE days)

 

[redreni]

I like simplicity as much as the next person, but it has to be right.

"Railcards can't be used on the 09:58 to Waterloo" sits alongside "Off-peak tickets are not valid on this service", unfortunately, in the basket of simple messaging that happens to be wrong.

 

[Lockwood]

I've updated the original post to include the word Network in front of Railcard, and fix autocorrect's "fixing" of Fratton.

And perhaps it was 0959, not 0958.

I'm remembering a piece of paper stuck to a ticket window over 20 years ago...

 

[800Travel]

How does this same query apply to 16-25 railcards please, and is there anything official (such as on the internal knowledge base) which would mean the tickets are strictly valid on any train after 10:00 regardless of whether this is a train scheduled to leave before 10:00 but delayed to depart after 10:00 please?

 

[geoffk]

When I lived in Northern's territory, I was told that it was the scheduled time that mattered when using an off-peak train after 09.30. So if the 09.28 train came 5 minutes late, it was still a peak train. With buses it's the actual time that's relevant when using an ENCTS pass so the pass is valid on the 09.28 running 5 minutes late. There's a lot of inconsistency and perhaps a standard ruling on all public transport would be helpful.

 

[pedr]

With Off-Peak restrictions there’s the potentially confusing difference between ones written as “timed to depart” and those as “not valid for travel before”. Both of which could lead to anomalies and conflict!

 

[Wallsendmag]

Going way back into the depths of time there was a Friday restriction on using a Young Person's Railcard from Kings Cross but that must be 35-40 years ago

 

[Watershed]

How does this same query apply to 16-25 railcards please, and is there anything official (such as on the internal knowledge base) which would mean the tickets are strictly valid on any train after 10:00 regardless of whether this is a train scheduled to leave before 10:00 but delayed to depart after 10:00 please?

I'm not aware of anything internal that addresses this particular issue - but it's purely a matter of looking at the Railcard conditions. They state:

4.5. The 16-25 Railcard has a minimum fare that applies from 04.30 and [sic] 10.00 Monday to Friday. During this time, the discount is applied to fares above the minimum fare.

If you board a train that leaves after 10:00, you aren't travelling "during this time". Nowhere does it refer to "scheduled" timings, as is often the case for the text of restriction codes. That difference in wording gives a clear indication of the intended restriction also being different.

When I lived in Northern's territory, I was told that it was the scheduled time that mattered when using an off-peak train after 09.30. So if the 09.28 train came 5 minutes late, it was still a peak train. With buses it's the actual time that's relevant when using an ENCTS pass so the pass is valid on the 09.28 running 5 minutes late. There's a lot of inconsistency and perhaps a standard ruling on all public transport would be helpful.

The way time restrictions work isn't always the same. Some restrictions are based on scheduled departure times (this is generally the case for Off-Peak tickets), others are based on actual departure times (this is generally the case for Railcards and sometimes for concessionary passes too).

 

[800Travel]

I'm not aware of anything internal that addresses this particular issue - but it's purely a matter of looking at the Railcard conditions. They state:


If you board a train that leaves after 10:00, you aren't travelling "during this time". Nowhere does it refer to "scheduled" timings, as is often the case for the text of restriction codes. That difference in wording gives a clear indication of the intended restriction also being different.


The way time restrictions work isn't always the same. Some restrictions are based on scheduled departure times (this is generally the case for Off-Peak tickets), others are based on actual departure times (this is generally the case for Railcards and sometimes for concessionary passes too).

Thanks @Watershed - my concern is I asked the TOCs re this and they wouldn't agree it was based off actual time. They say it is based off scheduled time, and if the train is delayed it is the guard's discretion whether to base it off actual time which just seems a little risky.

I agree that the terms imply actual time rather than scheduled time, it's just a case of how to get them to agree. I haven't been given a penalty for this just to clarify, it's just that given the TOCs deem it as a grey area I'm trying to get something in writing from them to show to any guards who query it.

 

[Watershed]

Thanks @Watershed - my concern is I asked the TOCs re this and they wouldn't agree it was based off actual time. They say it is based off scheduled time, and if the train is delayed it is the guard's discretion whether to base it off actual time which just seems a little risky.

I agree that the terms imply actual time rather than scheduled time, it's just a case of how to get them to agree. I haven't been given a penalty for this just to clarify, it's just that given the TOCs deem it as a grey area I'm trying to get something in writing from them to show to any guards who query it.

If you have been speaking to a TOC's customer services, frankly I wouldn't trust most of them to run a bath. The people you speak to receive little to no training on the actual rules and conditions, so they are left to say whatever 'sounds right' - a bit like ChatGPT. That's no disrepect to the individuals involved - it's an entirely foreseeable outcome given the circumstances.

At the end of the day it depends on what you perceive as risky. Personally, I wouldn't see it as risky, since I would be happy to "discuss" the Railcard conditions with any guard who challenged me. But if you don't like confrontation then frankly even having something in writing from a TOC confirming you're OK may not be sufficient, as we have heard of plenty of instances of rogue members of staff ignoring this and insisting they're correct.

I cannot see that it is a grey area at all, since the wording makes no reference to scheduled timings and in any event, any ambiguity would have to be interpreted in your favour as the consumer.

 

[Krokodil]

When I lived in Northern's territory, I was told that it was the scheduled time that mattered when using an off-peak train after 09.30. So if the 09.28 train came 5 minutes late, it was still a peak train. With buses it's the actual time that's relevant when using an ENCTS pass so the pass is valid on the 09.28 running 5 minutes late. There's a lot of inconsistency and perhaps a standard ruling on all public transport would be helpful.

Restrictions ND and B3 (I'm not double checking any more than those two) use the wording "timed to depart" so what you were told is correct, the 09:28 is still a peak train, even when running late.

 

[Fermiboson]

I'm not aware of anything internal that addresses this particular issue - but it's purely a matter of looking at the Railcard conditions. They state:


If you board a train that leaves after 10:00, you aren't travelling "during this time". Nowhere does it refer to "scheduled" timings, as is often the case for the text of restriction codes. That difference in wording gives a clear indication of the intended restriction also being different.

I was allowed by a guard on a Chester to Crewe train that was timed to depart before, but ended up departing after, 1000. Of course this is not representative but discretion is hopefully widely exercised.

 

[redreni]

I was allowed by a guard on a Chester to Crewe train that was timed to depart before, but ended up departing after, 1000. Of course this is not representative but discretion is hopefully widely exercised.

Of course, if a guard gets their interpretation of the rules wrong but then decides to exercise discretion in the passenger's favour, if it always best to just say thanks.

The fact remains the guard in that case was purporting to exercise discretion he doesn't have: as Watershed has explained above, this isn't even a grey area. If the restriction doesn't say "trains timed to depart" and doesn't specify particular services that are subject to the restriction, the scheduled times are irrelevant.

As such, I wouldn't personally ask the guard's permission to travel in these circumstances. Asking makes it look like you are seeking permission to do something that isn't strictly allowed. I always think in cases like this you have to decide what your position is: if you know you're seeking to do something that's not allowed or a grey area then seek out the guard and ask nicely. If you think your ticket is valid then I think it's absolutely fair enough to just sit down and wait and see if anybody questions it.

 

[TUC]

When I lived in Northern's territory, I was told that it was the scheduled time that mattered when using an off-peak train after 09.30. So if the 09.28 train came 5 minutes late, it was still a peak train. With buses it's the actual time that's relevant when using an ENCTS pass so the pass is valid on the 09.28 running 5 minutes late. There's a lot of inconsistency and perhaps a standard ruling on all public transport would be helpful.

I would suggest that such an approach is unreasonable. If there had been extensive delays, such that multiple services on the same route are all running 55 minutes late, would it really be reasonable to tell someone at 0945 'you can't board the late running 0850. You'll have to wait until 1025 for the late running 0930?'

 

[Haywain]

The fact remains the guard in that case was purporting to exercise discretion he doesn't have:

That's an assumption, the guard could just as likely have been confirming that the ticket was valid.

I wouldn't personally ask the guard's permission to travel in these circumstances.

But if someone does, the guard will answer. The act of answering a question is not automatically a case of exercising discretion.

 

[Lockwood]

So with timed to depart, if you get a service which is overtaken by another, the now earlier train is off peak but the later one is peak?

So you have your off peak ticket, see the tail lights of the 1015 disappear, catch the next train which was actually the earlier train and it be peak.

Wow, this is a minefield

 

[Haywain]

So with timed to depart, if you get a service which is overtaken by another, the now earlier train is off peak but the later one is peak?

Yes. That happens with trains from my local station to London every weekday without any delays being involved.

 

[Fermiboson]

And one last daft question. Let's say the 0958 got in at 0958, but didn't leave until 1000 because Fred was stood with one foot on the platform and one on the train to deliberately delay the service. Fred would be a complete and utter [redacted] for doing that, and I could imagine a lot of annoyed customers. What would happen to Fred?

And to answer OP’s original daft question: Fred would have his details taken and receive a letter in the post some weeks or months later threatening prosecution under Byelaw 11.

 

[Krokodil]

And to answer OP’s original daft question: Fred would have his details taken and receive a letter in the post some weeks or months later threatening prosecution under Byelaw 11.

In the real world he'd just get away with doing it time and time again. Until he tries it on a 150 and discovers how unforgiving those doors are!

 

[island]

The fact remains the guard in that case was purporting to exercise discretion he doesn't have

A guard is an authorised person and as far at the NRCoT is concerned has absolute discretion to authorise a passenger to travel without the correct ticket.

Whether the guard is forbidden from doing so by internal policy is no concern of the passenger's.

 

[EUC]

I'm not aware of anything internal that addresses this particular issue - but it's purely a matter of looking at the Railcard conditions. They state:


If you board a train that leaves after 10:00, you aren't travelling "during this time". Nowhere does it refer to "scheduled" timings, as is often the case for the text of restriction codes. That difference in wording gives a clear indication of the intended restriction also being different.


The way time restrictions work isn't always the same. Some restrictions are based on scheduled departure times (this is generally the case for Off-Peak tickets), others are based on actual departure times (this is generally the case for Railcards and sometimes for concessionary passes too).

So if I've paid £5.75 for an Anytime Day Return from Bridgend to Cardiff Central with my 16-25 Railcard, and am waiting for the 0415 train, if it's running late and doesn't leave until after 0430, does that mean I fall foul of the £12.00 minimum fare?

 

[redreni]

A guard is an authorised person and as far at the NRCoT is concerned has absolute discretion to authorise a passenger to travel without the correct ticket.

Whether the guard is forbidden from doing so by internal policy is no concern of the passenger's.

Indeed, but the guard doesn't have discretion to refuse to accept a valid ticket.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Oct 2024 ==

So if I've paid £5.75 for an Anytime Day Return from Bridgend to Cardiff Central with my 16-25 Railcard, and am waiting for the 0415 train, if it's running late and doesn't leave until after 0430, does that mean I fall foul of the £12.00 minimum fare?

Good question.

It feels like it would be an unfair term if you were penalised in the circumstances you describe, since it's the railway's fault not yours. I would suggest in those circumstances travelling on the delayed 04:15 and waiting to see if anybody challenged it, which I doubt they would.

 

[Watershed]

So if I've paid £5.75 for an Anytime Day Return from Bridgend to Cardiff Central with my 16-25 Railcard, and am waiting for the 0415 train, if it's running late and doesn't leave until after 0430, does that mean I fall foul of the £12.00 minimum fare?

By the wording of the restriction yes, however if you selected that train when buying your ticket through a journey planner, you could rely on the contractual validity of the ticket on that train.

The same would go for scenarios where a train timed after 10am leaves early, before 10am.

 

[miklcct]

By the wording of the restriction yes, however if you selected that train when buying your ticket through a journey planner, you could rely on the contractual validity of the ticket on that train.

The same would go for scenarios where a train timed after 10am leaves early, before 10am.

What if I select the 03:59 train but end up travelling on the delayed 04:29 train?

 

[Watershed]

What if I select the 03:59 train but end up travelling on the delayed 04:29 train?

Then you are not covered by the contractual validity of an itinerary and would instead have rely on the less clear-cut argument that it would constitute an unfair term under consumer law for your contractual rights to be reduced by 'fault' (possibly a breach of contract) by the trader, i.e. the railway.

The position would be clearer and more favourable if you could prove that your purchasing decision was influenced by being told you could use your ticket on the 04:29 too - some retailers show alternative services your ticket is also valid on.