Mauldeth Road to Tutbury & Hatton

[pnjman]

I planning a journey from Mauldeth Road to Tutbury and was hoping to go via Crewe (rather than Piccadilly and Stoke) so as to change once rather than twice. However no ticketing site will offer me a itinerary going via Crewe. Using RailMiles Mileage Engine website I calculate that via Crewe is about 2.3 miles longer than via Piccadilly so this route should be valid? Will I have to show my working if I get pulled up on it?

I checked the other Styal line stations and the only itineraries offered are via Piccadilly, even though from East Didsbury the shortest route is via Crewe!

 

[Grumpy Git]

Use this forum's booking site and put Crewe into the "Advanced Options" as a waypoint.

A quick check gives me this:

 

[jfollows]

I planning a journey from Mauldeth Road to Tutbury and was hoping to go via Crewe (rather than Piccadilly and Stoke) so as to change once rather than twice. However no ticketing site will offer me a itinerary going via Crewe. Using RailMiles Mileage Engine website I calculate that via Crewe is about 2.3 miles longer than via Piccadilly so this route should be valid? Will I have to show my working if I get pulled up on it?

I checked the other Styal line stations and the only itineraries offered are via Piccadilly, even though from East Didsbury the shortest route is via Crewe!

I suspect that RailMiles is showing the direct route to Styal whereas the National Rail Timetable mileage is via Manchester Airport, which will make the route via Crewe more than 3 miles greater than the shortest route. Additionally, going via Wilmslow is not permitted because of the fares check rule, and this comes into play when the route isn't the shortest route or within 3 miles of it, which I suspect to be the case according to the mileage tables used.

 

[Watershed]

I planning a journey from Mauldeth Road to Tutbury and was hoping to go via Crewe (rather than Piccadilly and Stoke) so as to change once rather than twice. However no ticketing site will offer me a itinerary going via Crewe. Using RailMiles Mileage Engine website I calculate that via Crewe is about 2.3 miles longer than via Piccadilly so this route should be valid? Will I have to show my working if I get pulled up on it?

I checked the other Styal line stations and the only itineraries offered are via Piccadilly, even though from East Didsbury the shortest route is via Crewe!

It's incredibly unlikely that anyone would object to you going via Crewe - as you say, it's an entirely reasonable route and that is, in practice, the basis on which permitted routes are still assessed nowadays (even though it was supposedly abolished upon privatisation so you could be "more certain" of which routes were permitted!).

The reason why most journey planners won't offer routes via Crewe is that Wilmslow fails the fares check, so it's not a mapped route. And whilst travelling via Crewe can be within 3 miles of the shortest route, this is only the case if you use the rarely served Manchester Airport avoiding line. If you go via Manchester Airport (as all trains from Mauldeth Road to Crewe do) it becomes more than 3 miles longer than going via Piccadilly, or via Wilmslow and Cheadle Hulme.

I don't think there are any trains that call at Mauldeth Road (or other intermediate Styal line stations) that take this avoiding line, so for practical purposes I don't think it can really be counted when you have a ticket from Mauldeth Road - but journey planners don't understand that distinction, hence them not offering itineraries via Crewe.

I'm not entirely sure why the forum site is validating itineraries via Crewe; it may be that it allows slightly more than a 3 mile margin, in which case travel via both Manchester Airport and Crewe would be fine. Either way, you're entitled to rely on the itinerary you are given when buying your ticket, so if you want clear evidence of this validity I'd suggest buying your ticket from a retailer (such as the forum's site) which will offer you an itinerary via Crewe).

 

[jfollows]

I think the diversion via Manchester Airport adds 3m56ch to the direct route, although the important mileage is what the routeing engine used thinks of course.

 

[pnjman]

Oh well, I thought I had taken account of the airport spur. There's not much in it either way.

I meant no itinerary on a through Mauldeth Road - Tutbury ticket, which would under cut the Wilmslow - Tutbury ticket.

 

[Grumpy Git]

I don't think there are any trains that call at Mauldeth Road (or other intermediate Styal line stations) that take this avoiding line, so for practical purposes I don't think it can really be counted when you have a ticket from Mauldeth Road - but journey planners don't understand that distinction, hence them not offering itineraries via Crewe.

(my bold)

Do you mean trains which travel between Heald Green and Styal directly (without calling at the airport)?

 

[jfollows]

(my bold)

Do you mean trains which travel between Heald Green and Styal directly (without calling at the airport)?

Yes

 

[Kite159]

I'm pretty sure the only time Northern services will use the Airport avoiding line is when a service is running quite late and Northern control decides to rip out the call at the Airport in order to regain time so the stopper doesn't cause any further delays to long distance services on the Crewe line itself

Or at times of engineering works closing the Airport branch itself.

As for Mauldeth Road to Tutbury, to me that is probably more logical than changing twice (at Piccadilly & Stoke), especially as you board the EMR service at the start rather than at Stoke. But whenever did the railway do logic lol

 

[kieron]

I planning a journey from Mauldeth Road to Tutbury and was hoping to go via Crewe (rather than Piccadilly and Stoke) so as to change once rather than twice. However no ticketing site will offer me a itinerary going via Crewe. Using RailMiles Mileage Engine website I calculate that via Crewe is about 2.3 miles longer than via Piccadilly so this route should be valid?

I wouldn't use third party data to work out distances; I'd use the distances in the NRT distance tables, or the ones ticketing sites use (I don't know if there's a convenient source for those). While they're all trying to measure similar things, there are bound to be differences between them, and it's easier to reject an argument based on unofficial data.

While the route via Crewe isn't much further than the one via Manchester, (69 miles rather than 66 by the NRT distances, 70.15 rather than 67.12 according to the RJIS data), that doesn't (as far as I know) make a route valid. It may mean that ticketing sites allow your route, but that's for the web site to determine.

I checked the other Styal line stations and the only itineraries offered are via Piccadilly, even though from East Didsbury the shortest route is via Crewe!

It isn't the shortest route using the NRT or RJIS figures. The shortest route from Wilmslow to Stoke is via Macclesfield rather than Crewe (34.63 miles rather than 34.98 for RJIS, 34 rather than 33.25 for NRT). For stations on the Styal branch they make the shortest route either via Wilmslow and Macclesfield or Manchester Picadilly and Macclesfield, not Crewe.

The reason why most journey planners won't offer routes via Crewe is that Wilmslow fails the fares check, so it's not a mapped route.

It wouldn't be a mapped route anyway. Wilmslow-Stoke is only valid on the MH and HO+AC map combinations, which only includes a route via Macclesfield.

I don't think there are any trains that call at Mauldeth Road (or other intermediate Styal line stations) that take this avoiding line

While trains which go that way are normally non-stop between Manchester Picadilly and Wilmslow, there are a few late night stoppers next month which miss out Manchester Airport. You can get itineraries like the 23:44 departure on 18/11, although spending a few hours in Crewe overnight isn't to everyone's taste.

 

[Watershed]

although spending a few hours in Crewe overnight isn't to everyone's taste.

That's perhaps putting it mildly, seeing as you'll be booted out of the station when it shuts for the night.

 

[pnjman]

I wouldn't use third party data to work out distances; I'd use the distances in the NRT distance tables, or the ones ticketing sites use (I don't know if there's a convenient source for those). While they're all trying to measure similar things, there are bound to be differences between them, and it's easier to reject an argument based on unofficial data.

While the route via Crewe isn't much further than the one via Manchester, (69 miles rather than 66 by the NRT distances, 70.15 rather than 67.12 according to the RJIS data), that doesn't (as far as I know) make a route valid. It may mean that ticketing sites allow your route, but that's for the web site to determine.

It isn't the shortest route using the NRT or RJIS figures. The shortest route from Wilmslow to Stoke is via Macclesfield rather than Crewe (34.63 miles rather than 34.98 for RJIS, 34 rather than 33.25 for NRT). For stations on the Styal branch they make the shortest route either via Wilmslow and Macclesfield or Manchester Picadilly and Macclesfield, not Crewe.

It wouldn't be a mapped route anyway. Wilmslow-Stoke is only valid on the MH and HO+AC map combinations, which only includes a route via Macclesfield.

While trains which go that way are normally non-stop between Manchester Picadilly and Wilmslow, there are a few late night stoppers next month which miss out Manchester Airport. You can get itineraries like the 23:44 departure on 18/11, although spending a few hours in Crewe overnight isn't to everyone's taste.

Thank you, the route guide is all far too complicated.

For fare simplification just bring back any reasonable route!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Are journeys from Mauldeth Road to/from stations on the Marches line (such as Church Stretton, Ludlow and/or Leominster), made using walk up fares, and route "." routeing, valid via East Didsbury/Styal, or does one have to head 'wrong direction' to Manchester Piccadilly?

 

[Lewisham2221]

Are journeys from Mauldeth Road to/from stations on the Marches line (such as Church Stretton, Ludlow and/or Leominster), made using walk up fares, and route "." routeing, valid via East Didsbury/Styal, or does one have to head 'wrong direction' to Manchester Piccadilly?

NRE journey planner suggests valid via Styal. Defaults to via MAN, but forcing a change at CRE offers a fare/itinerary.

 

[jfollows]

Are journeys from Mauldeth Road to/from stations on the Marches line (such as Church Stretton, Ludlow and/or Leominster), made using walk up fares, and route "." routeing, valid via East Didsbury/Styal, or does one have to head 'wrong direction' to Manchester Piccadilly?

Yes, they are valid via Wilmslow. As well as via Manchester, as it happens.

Mauldeth Road has two routeing points, either of which can be used, Manchester (Group) & Wilmslow (Group). The only caveat is that the routeing point used must pass the fares check rule, which sounds more complex than it is - essentially the fare (as defined in a previous version of the National Fares Manual, NFM 64) from the routeing point to the destination must not be greater than from the origin to the destination. Even more simply, you can't choose to go the "wrong way" when you have two or more routeing points to choose from - “wrong” as in more expensive, essentially.

For Tutbury & Hatton, Wilmslow fails the fares check rule and can't be used as a routeing point from Mauldeth Road. The fare from Wilmslow is greater than the fare from Mauldeth Road.

However anywhere more obviously "south" such as Crewe-Shrewsbury etc. will be able to use Wilmslow as a routeing point. The fare from Wilmslow will usually be less than the fare from Mauldeth Road.

The Routeing Point Calculator at https://data.atoc.org/routeing-guide sometimes helps. In the specific case of Ludlow it shows that both Manchester and Wilmslow pass the fare check rule:

The fare from Manchester is the same as the fare from Mauldeth Road, so it's not more, so it's valid to use this routeing point. The fare from Wilmslow is less, so that's definitely fine also.

NFM 64 is used because it's a historic reference document, it seems strange but if you used the actual fares then things would change all the time. It leads to the strange practice of inventing fares for NFM 64 for stations which didn't exist when it was created, just so the rule can be applied to them today.

EDIT Note that, in the case of Mauldeth Road-Ludlow via Styal and Wilmslow, all this discussion about fares check rules is OTT, because the shortest route will be via Styal and Wilmslow, so it's a permitted route. However the rule is needed to allow travel via Manchester, which is 5.25 miles further. As is the case for every other station between Mauldeth Road and Manchester Airport - the route to Ludlow via Manchester Piccadilly is valid.

 

[pnjman]

Yes, they are valid via Wilmslow. As well as via Manchester, as it happens.

Mauldeth Road has two routeing points, either of which can be used, Manchester (Group) & Wilmslow (Group). The only caveat is that the routeing point used must pass the fares check rule, which sounds more complex than it is - essentially the fare (as defined in a previous version of the National Fares Manual, NFM 64) from the routeing point to the destination must not be greater than from the origin to the destination. Even more simply, you can't choose to go the "wrong way" when you have two or more routeing points to choose from - “wrong” as in more expensive, essentially.

For Tutbury & Hatton, Wilmslow fails the fares check rule and can't be used as a routeing point from Mauldeth Road. The fare from Wilmslow is greater than the fare from Mauldeth Road.

However anywhere more obviously "south" such as Crewe-Shrewsbury etc. will be able to use Wilmslow as a routeing point. The fare from Wilmslow will usually be less than the fare from Mauldeth Road.

The Routeing Point Calculator at https://data.atoc.org/routeing-guide sometimes helps. In the specific case of Ludlow it shows that both Manchester and Wilmslow pass the fare check rule:
View attachment 168067
The fare from Manchester is the same as the fare from Mauldeth Road, so it's not more, so it's valid to use this routeing point. The fare from Wilmslow is less, so that's definitely fine also.

NFM 64 is used because it's a historic reference document, it seems strange but if you used the actual fares then things would change all the time. It leads to the strange practice of inventing fares for NFM 64 for stations which didn't exist when it was created, just so the rule can be applied to them today.

EDIT Note that, in the case of Mauldeth Road-Ludlow via Styal and Wilmslow, all this discussion about fares check rules is OTT, because the shortest route will be via Styal and Wilmslow, so it's a permitted route. However the rule is needed to allow travel via Manchester, which is 5.25 miles further. As is the case for every other station between Mauldeth Road and Manchester Airport - the route to Ludlow via Manchester Piccadilly is valid.

Hang on then, going back to my original question, would Burnage to Tutbury be valid via Crewe by valid as its within 3 miles of the shortest route so it doesn't matter about the fares check?

 

[jfollows]

Hang on then, going back to my original question, would Burnage to Tutbury be valid via Crewe by valid as its within 3 miles of the shortest route so it doesn't matter about the fares check?

As long as the "correct" mileage tables are used, then yes, but note that Watershed already pointed out that in reality nobody's actually going to object to the route via Crewe - even from Mauldeth Road.
PS I calculate it's 2 miles further (from Burnage) according to the NRT mileage tables. So that's OK.