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Cuttings and Embankments Revisited

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Dr Hoo

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Chief civil Grierson got very substantial investment funds out of the GWR board for all the 1900 new lines built, but someone along the way didn't seem to understand drainage, hence the multiple issues, which to an extent continue on those various new lines even now.

Trainload after trainload of ballast from Stoneycombe, and later Meldon, quarries have been tipped in around Athelney/Langport over many years. I wonder where it all is.

I recall from Crewe to Sandbach on the Manchester line in the 1970s-80s had major subsidence issues from adjacent salt mining. Nowadays you would never know it, all is stable. How did they do it?
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Wasn't it a case of the salt extraction ceasing? Didn't they use a 'solution' process in that area rather than conventional 'solid' mining, so the extent and rate of the effects was a bit hard to predict?

The overhead line masts had generous 'jack-up' provision to allow the wires to be raised on the portals as the track was (relatively) re-raised underneath them.
 
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Bald Rick

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I recall from Crewe to Sandbach on the Manchester line in the 1970s-80s had major subsidence issues from adjacent salt mining. Nowadays you would never know it, all is stable. How did they do it?

Closed it for the best part of half a year in 2004 and spending a lot of money stabilising it. Even then, its only 90mph, as it’s still a bit wobbly.
 

DelW

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And finally (sorry about all these questions!), your building a long embankment which is broken up by a series of small railway bridges, now the chicken or egg question - do you build the bridge first and work towards it? stop there and cart spoil to where the other side of the bridge is going to be then build the bridge etc? what would the general practice be please?
I imagine Victorian practice would (or ought to) have been similar to modern: you build the bridges - either simultaneously or sequentially or most likely a mix between them (with each trade moving from one bridge to the next) - ahead of the adjacent earthworks. The embankments between the bridges can be built at the same time (though usually seasonally, particularly if in clay as that's unworkable in winter). Only when both are largely complete do you backfill the gaps between abutments and adjacent embankments. In modern practice that has to be done with free-draining fill.

The programme wouldn't allow enough time for completing bridges first, then using them to carry fill material between cuttings and embankments. Instead, the excavated material needs to be hauled through the site while the bridges are being built. Any stream or river crossings would need temporary bridges alongside the site of the permanent ones. At road crossings, the road would be diverted around the bridge site (between the bridge and embankment) until the bridge is completed, when the road can be put back through it, and the gap to the embankment filled in.

Ar least, that's how 20th century roads were planned and built!
 

Andy873

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I suspect the hydraulic pump is what I know as a hydraulic ram. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_ram You use the kinetic energy in a flow of water to pump a small fraction of it up to a much higher level, to feed a house or mill header tank for example.

I haven't noticed a flow direction mapped for a cutting drain before, maybe it was so significant that the railway realised it had a source of water available to feed the station header tanks and water columns?
Regarding the hydraulic pump, yes it does look like it is what we call today an hydraulic ram, a device I didn't know about!

As the direction of water being noted on the map sheet, I haven't seen any before either and certainly not on any map sheet covering my branch line, only the 1890 town map sheets show it.

It could be that the water was used for the station's water columns (installed July 1885) or perhaps it was used to top up Albert mill's water pond - a mystery for me to look into.

Regarding construction:
I imagine Victorian practice would (or ought to) have been similar to modern: you build the bridges - either simultaneously or sequentially or most likely a mix between them (with each trade moving from one bridge to the next) - ahead of the adjacent earthworks. The embankments between the bridges can be built at the same time (though usually seasonally, particularly if in clay as that's unworkable in winter). Only when both are largely complete do you backfill the gaps between abutments and adjacent embankments. In modern practice that has to be done with free-draining fill.

The programme wouldn't allow enough time for completing bridges first, then using them to carry fill material between cuttings and embankments. Instead, the excavated material needs to be hauled through the site while the bridges are being built. Any stream or river crossings would need temporary bridges alongside the site of the permanent ones. At road crossings, the road would be diverted around the bridge site (between the bridge and embankment) until the bridge is completed, when the road can be put back through it, and the gap to the embankment filled in.
Thanks for that, it helps me to form a picture of what happened when.

As a side note, the first cast iron bridge that would have been constructed was the one over Hey's lane. This was replaced in the 1930's with a steel one, a team was assembled and a railway steam crane was on hand, however the train from Rose Grove (Burnley) brought the bridge components down to the site with the wagons in the wrong order and had to go back to Rose Grove to swap the wagons around, finally it came back and they tried again - guess the air would have been blue at the time.

embankments between the bridges can be built at the same time (though usually seasonally, particularly if in clay as that's unworkable in winter).
I hadn't considered the weather and seasonal working. The second excavated was full of blue bolder clay, which it was said was rock hard in the dry and like an ice rink when wet.

Question please - would the construction workers work in shifts, say a day shift and a night one? and are there any average figures of how many would work per day? 50? 100?
 

Taunton

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Question please - would the construction workers work in shifts, say a day shift and a night one? and are there any average figures of how many would work per day? 50? 100?
Unlikely - construction site lighting was somewhat impractical and limited at the time railways were being constructed. You can't do a lot of civils work out in the open with oil lamps, certainly not with candles, and there would be no gas supply for gas lighting. It was very long shifts in summer, and lesser in winter.
 

DelW

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I hadn't considered the weather and seasonal working. The second excavated was full of blue bolder clay, which it was said was rock hard in the dry and like an ice rink when wet.
If you try and work on clay embankments in winter you'll do more damage than good. We used to aim to seal the surface in the autumn by flat-rolling it as smooth as possible with a crown to shed water, then keep absolutely everyone off it until it dries out in the spring. The muckshift operation typically shut down in October or November and restarted after Easter.
Question please - would the construction workers work in shifts, say a day shift and a night one? and are there any average figures of how many would work per day? 50? 100?
I'd agree with Taunton, single shift but long hours. In the railway building era I'd have expected a workforce well into the hundreds, on 1970s/80s road schemes we had well over a hundred even with much greater mechanisation.
Unlikely - construction site lighting was somewhat impractical and limited at the time railways were being constructed. You can't do a lot of civils work out in the open with oil lamps, certainly not with candles, and there would be no gas supply for gas lighting. It was very long shifts in summer, and lesser in winter.
As late as the mid 1970s, on my first job as a graduate engineer earthworks hours were 0700 - 2100 weekdays, 0700 - 1300 Saturdays and 0800 - 1600 Sundays. In our on-site soils testing lab we regularly worked on until around midnight to get triaxial tests (clay shear strength) done ready for the 0700 restart. Staff overtime was at flat rate (no time & half or double time), but even so I could often double my weekly salary by comparison with the 44hr/week basic. IIRC my record timesheet was a 98 hour week, no EU 48hrs/wk limits in those days! Winter was four months of very short days though.
 

Pigeon

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Wasn't it a case of the salt extraction ceasing? Didn't they use a 'solution' process in that area rather than conventional 'solid' mining, so the extent and rate of the effects was a bit hard to predict?

I have a feeling the problem with that area is that solution mining was a popular method for backyard or cowboy operators, so there were lots of more-or-less unregulated and unmapped local workings dotted about the place, combined with a general tendency for the ground to be a bit flat and soggy to start with, hence there now being lots of bings about. I've half an idea there was eventually some kind of official purge on the cowboy operators because of the random subsidences.

It does settle down eventually, but it takes a while.
 

AndrewE

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I have a feeling the problem with that area is that solution mining was a popular method for backyard or cowboy operators, so there were lots of more-or-less unregulated and unmapped local workings dotted about the place, combined with a general tendency for the ground to be a bit flat and soggy to start with, hence there now being lots of bings about. I've half an idea there was eventually some kind of official purge on the cowboy operators because of the random subsidences.

It does settle down eventually, but it takes a while.
Actually pumping "wild" brine from underground streams in the salt seams was the norm until it was realised how destructive it was for land and buildings miles from the extraction point. After it was banned they continued solution mining - but by pumping water down a borehole and sucking brine back up, keeping the cavities vertical and separated. It's how the new gas storage caverns were "constructed" near Middlewich too.

The subsidence doesn't settle down eventually - or it would not until all the salt had gone and the seam entirely compacted!
There was a brine subsidence compensation fund paid for by the ongoing salt industry but BR never drew on the money it could have had.
Apparently Northwich town was seriously blighted to the extent that some of the older buildings have 4 layers of abandoned rooms under the existing building, more recent buildings (like since 1900) are on steel rafts which are jacked up periodically. It's also why black-and-white timber-framed buildings continuued to be buit there. In the 1960s there was a massive effort to stabilise the caverns under the town by injecting grout which has worked.
The road bridges over the Weaver Navigation sit on a floating caisson for the same reason - it won't subside!

There is loads of stuff on line about this and the preserved Lion Salt works and salt museum at Northwich explain it too. Google "northwich salt subsidence."
 
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Andy873

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construction site lighting was somewhat impractical and limited at the time railways were being constructed. You can't do a lot of civils work out in the open with oil lamps, certainly not with candles, and there would be no gas supply for gas lighting. It was very long shifts in summer, and lesser in winter.

If you try and work on clay embankments in winter you'll do more damage than good. We used to aim to seal the surface in the autumn by flat-rolling it as smooth as possible with a crown to shed water, then keep absolutely everyone off it until it dries out in the spring. The muckshift operation typically shut down in October or November and restarted after Easter.
So construction work for the trad bed would be done during spring, summer and autumn until the bad weather kicked in and tools were downed until the following spring time. Not having any engineering experience I really didn't think about that side of things, except to say I did wonder about the line's viaduct construction. I thought being say 60-65 feet up in the air in winter wouldn't be the best of ideas.

What's also being said is that the gangs would be working to daylight hours, which I presume meant the shifts got longer up until June 21 and then progressively shorter until it's time to pack in for winter.

Question please - I'm trying to keep this general but I must ask a specific question about one embankment that was swept away in January 1877. To recap, this embankment was around 210 feet wide at its base, 420 feet long, and 55 feet high...
Are we saying the L&Y / contractor would have simply had to ride out the winter months before the workforce could even think about repairing / rebuilding it?

A more general question this time - One resident engineer (Mr Bowers) was assigned to my old line's construction and was given the annual salary of 250 pounds. Now as this line was built by two different contractors (one for the west 6.75 mile section and one for the remaining 2.25 miles), I presume a resident engineer would have travelled back and forth between these two sections? or would he spend X number of days / weeks at each etc?

Regarding a contractor hiring people to work for him constructing a line and setting aside day labour, would you be given weekly work, monthly work, that is presuming you were a good hard worker?
 

DelW

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So construction work for the trad bed would be done during spring, summer and autumn until the bad weather kicked in and tools were downed until the following spring time. Not having any engineering experience I really didn't think about that side of things, except to say I did wonder about the line's viaduct construction. I thought being say 60-65 feet up in the air in winter wouldn't be the best of ideas.
I think the masons and carpenters working on bridges might well work through the winter. For them, frost might be more of an issue than rain, as it affects the mortar.
What's also being said is that the gangs would be working to daylight hours, which I presume meant the shifts got longer up until June 21 and then progressively shorter until it's time to pack in for winter.
Yes, I think that's how it would have worked.
Question please - I'm trying to keep this general but I must ask a specific question about one embankment that was swept away in January 1877. To recap, this embankment was around 210 feet wide at its base, 420 feet long, and 55 feet high...
Are we saying the L&Y / contractor would have simply had to ride out the winter months before the workforce could even think about repairing / rebuilding it?
It would probably depend on the nature of the fill material (either original or replacement). If it was free draining, e.g. sands and gravels, it could have been possible to get on with repairs in the winter, but if it was clay, or sands and gravels with a high silt content, then they'd probably have had to wait for it all to dry out.
A more general question this time - One resident engineer (Mr Bowers) was assigned to my old line's construction and was given the annual salary of 250 pounds. Now as this line was built by two different contractors (one for the west 6.75 mile section and one for the remaining 2.25 miles), I presume a resident engineer would have travelled back and forth between these two sections? or would he spend X number of days / weeks at each etc?
I would expect that he'd have had clerks of works at each work location, whose job it is to monitor and oversee the work on behalf of the client, in order to ensure it's being built to their specification. The RE himself would probably divide his time according to the importance and difficulty of what was being built at each site. Of course some were more assiduous in their duties than others, as shown by some of the sub-standard work still evident today (e.g. Hastings line tunnels).
Regarding a contractor hiring people to work for him constructing a line and setting aside day labour, would you be given weekly work, monthly work, that is presuming you were a good hard worker?
I've no particular knowledge, but there were no employment protection rules then, it might well have been hire-and-fire on a daily basis even for those who worked there for long periods. Skilled workers might be better looked after, but I don't know how formal the contracts would have been, and many of the workers might well have been illiterate anyway.
 

swt_passenger

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Re ’borrow pits’ - this is a term still in modern use. I first heard of the term whilst stood in one, the contents of which had just been, err, borrowed for HS1 construction.
I Googled HS2 and ‘borrow pits’, and found a 100 page report on the exact subject for phase 2b. It‘s presumably based on their use in current civil engineering, and it seems to be a good general overview of the reasons for use, and includes long term restoration:
 

Merle Haggard

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The contractors that built a line not infrequently operated it when it opened, becoming lessees*. A good example is Thomas Savin who operated both the Brecon & Merthyr and some of the constituent lines of the Cambrian - in the case of the latter, initially in partnership with David Davis and after they parted company the Cambrian lines were distributed between the two. Later, there were plans for him to sell his loco and rolling stock to the Cambrian but this was overtaken by his bankruptcy.
What was remarkable was that Mr Savin's fleet of locomotives (at least - might have also applied to his rolling stock) operated on both the B&MR and the Cam Rays and he had convinced both railways that particular locos. belonged to them, i.e. such locos. were being paid for by both railways. When his bankruptcy enforced a division and return of his assets this caused problems and disappointment.

* as an aside a curious but I think correct spelling of the word meaning 'one is the recipient of a lease'
 

Rescars

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Regarding a contractor hiring people to work for him constructing a line and setting aside day labour, would you be given weekly work, monthly work, that is presuming you were a good hard worker?
"The Railway Navvies" by Terry Coleman contains details of working conditions and hiring arrangements. I found a copy in my local library. It's an interesting read about matters which don't often get an airing.

On a quite different matter, the details above about borrow pits are very interesting. Did similar arrangements apply when seeking ballast where the local geology made this possible? There are tales, especially in the early years, of ballast being obtained from lineside sources. Was this practice widespread? D L Smith tells of the tragic accident at Dalbeattie which came about when a GSWR train on just such a mission (whose driver held the train staff) was run into by a Caledonian train (whose driver didn't have permission to be in section). According to legend, the Caledonian driver tried to steal the train staff from the horribly injured GSW crew.
 

Dr Hoo

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It is well documented that when the Bridgewater Canal was constructed in the 1750s material excavated in one area was moved forward to make embankments for the advancing 'cut' (!) towards Manchester and Runcorn.
 
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edwin_m

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railwayarchive.org.uk has a collection of photos of the Great Central London extension under construction. In many of these the track looks roughly built and captions refer to contractors laying temporary track.
 

Dr Hoo

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The brilliant book of the 'S W A Newton photographs' of the London Extension, nicely curated by L T C Rolt, The Making of a Railway (Alan Sutton Publishing Limited, 1990 from the 1971 Hugh Evelyn Limited original) contains various shots of simple end-tipping and side-tipping to form earthworks. There is specific reference to a 29-foot formation in cuttings and 31-foot on embankments, sometimes increased to 33-foot simply to absorb 'excess' spoil from some cuttings.
 

Andy873

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I Googled HS2 and ‘borrow pits’, and found a 100 page report on the exact subject for phase 2b.
That's some document, I've gone through some of it and it's all about borrow pits and sources of material available to build the route to Manchester.

On a quite different matter, the details above about borrow pits are very interesting. Did similar arrangements apply when seeking ballast where the local geology made this possible?
Another good question, as are the replies.

The HS2 document regarding borrow pits goes into details about sourcing material from local quarries. Now I know my old branch had one main local quarry called Cunliffe quarry. It's said that all the stone (sandstone) for the bridges, viaduct and dressed stone for the stations came from this quarry, but Mr slow coach here (me!) missed the obvious - it would have also been a ready source of crushed stone, perhaps this was also used in the line's construction?

It's clear now to me that borrow pits were very important so I decided to re-look at those three cuttings on the line. Looking at the first two cuttings, they seem more or less to be parallel with the track, however the third and final cutting they did next to the quarry shows a different pattern... the south side is again more or less parallel with the track bed but the north side isn't. This north side seems larger in several places. Would this be simply down to the topology of the land? - the cutting here is between the Leeds & Liverpool canal (south side) and the quarry to its north on a hill.

Drainage in cuttings - if you've got a cutting and on one side you have a hill, what did the railway builders do to stop these cuttings flooding? I know flooding is still an issue today.
 

Taunton

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Drainage in cuttings - if you've got a cutting and on one side you have a hill, what did the railway builders do to stop these cuttings flooding? I know flooding is still an issue today.
Handling rainwater runoff is standard stuff for civil engineers, though they do need to have a good professional idea of the variables involved of geology, slope gradients, etc rather than taking a "one size fits all" approach. Installing a French Drain under the field above the cutting is a starter to intercepting it, then trackside drains to pick up further. Generalising tremendously but a key issue in avoiding flooding is not primarily dealing with where the water is coming from, but more where it is going to. You need to have drainage with a proper gradient, and a watercourse to carry it away adequately.

There's all that stuff about Brunel aligning Box Tunnel so the sun shines through it on his birthday, but more importantly it comes out so runoff goes into the adjacent By Brook, next to the downhill end portal, and flows further downhill into the River Avon. A few miles to the north and 60 years later, chief civil Grierson didn't allow well for this with Sodbury Tunnel through the same hills, which has been nothing but trouble with flooding ever since, even now as they are not allowed by the river authority to overload the adjacent small streams.
 
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edwin_m

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The cutting of the former Midland Melton-Nottingham route through West Bridgford is now a public walkway and the substantial brick drain at the bottom of the slope still functions as such. The drain follows the slope of the trackbed, which was on a gradient of 1 in 200, and this keeps the water flowing. When the cutting turns into an embankment the drain runs off and becomes a small stream.
 

AndrewE

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Handling rainwater runoff is standard stuff for civil engineers, though they do need to have a good professional idea of the variables involved of geology, slope gradients, etc rather than taking a "one size fits all" approach. Installing a French Drain under the field above the cutting is a starter to intercepting it, then trackside drains to pick up further. Generalising tremendously but a key issue in avoiding flooding is not primarily dealing with where the water is coming from, but more where it is going to. You need to have drainage with a proper gradient, and a watercourse to carry it away adequately.
Really? Admittedly getting rid of water is important (a friend had a smallholding next to a canal but couldn't get any action on clearing the inverted syphon under it, so his land was badly impacted) but in normal agricultural work I believed that by the time the water is at he bottom of a field it has already left it! Hence the importance of a drain across the top of a field...
The thing about a railway cutting is that it is just that - and you are likely to intersect the actual local water table, and have to deal with the consequences of lowering it down to your track base. Bad news back in the day for people nearby when they relied on wells...
 
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