UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[Noddy]

I think we're at cross purposes. The announcement from Stellantis or the 'news' implied that this was the first EV car which is priced the same as an ICE, whereas the ICE version is actually a hybrid. Therefore it is not so surprising that a hybrid and an EV are the same price. An EV at the same price as a plain ICE would be news.

Mild hybrid is pretty much standard these days though. As someone who has had two mHEVs in the past few years on finance deals there was next to no difference in the costs versus the previous ‘standard’ ICE cars from the same manufacturer. I also suspect we won’t see many pure ICE going forwards as the Euro 7 emissions standards come into force next year and it’s probably easier/cheaper to meet those standards with a mHEV compared to a pure ICE.

 

[Bald Rick]

I was at Everything Electric over the weekend and saw the Renault 5 EV that I have fallen in love with, and next to the Renault stand was Octopus, who hope to be announcing their complete package (car, servicing, tyres, 4,000 miles of charging for free, home charger install and so on) and with it being one of the first to support V2G (Vehicle to Grid) which is subject to regulator approval.

The Renault 5 Ev is also expected to be one of the first to support V2G.

 

[E27007]

Perhaps this it is time to listen to the opinions of the Eu car-makers concerning the transition from IC to ZEV.
In the USA, stockpiled inventories of unsold ZEVs exceed IC cars.
At VW, facing the issue of the untapped market of China for volume sales where VW vehicles are not winning over Chinese buyers who favour their own such as BYD
VW; "the Roof Is On Fire"

 

[AM9]

Perhaps this it is time to listen to the opinions of the Eu car-makers concerning the transition from IC to ZEV.
In the USA, stockpiled inventories of unsold ZEVs exceed IC cars.
At VW, facing the issue of the untapped market of China for volume sales where VW vehicles are not winning over Chinese buyers who favour their own such as BYD
VW; "the Roof Is On Fire"

I doubt that car makers anywhere would have an unbiased view of climate change.

 

[E27007]

I doubt that car makers anywhere would have an unbiased view of climate change.

The European carmakers are reeling, their business plans are not bearing fruit, the IC to ZEV transition is in the favour of the Chinese carmakers.
European carmakers are facing difficult situations such as plant closures and job cuts , rising costs and diminishing margins

 

[Noddy]

The European carmakers are reeling, their business plans are not bearing fruit, the IC to ZEV transition is in the favour of the Chinese carmakers.
European carmakers are facing difficult situations such as plant closures and job cuts , rising costs and diminishing margins

If European car makers make good small cheap EVs they will be perfectly placed to make the transition. The Renault 5 is going to be extremely profitable for Renault. But if European manufacturers continue to view expensive, oversized, SUVs as their cash cow, in an EV world they’re going to struggle because the likes of Tesla, Lucid and BYD are so far ahead of them in terms of battery technology and efficiency and can make far better SUVs. As I understand it only one of these companies is Chinese. We live in a capitalist society and if companies fail to adapt to a changing market there will be plenty more ready to take their place.

 

[AM9]

The European carmakers are reeling, their business plans are not bearing fruit, the IC to ZEV transition is in the favour of the Chinese carmakers.
European carmakers are facing difficult situations such as plant closures and job cuts , rising costs and diminishing margins

As a human being, I have a greater stake in climate change being addressed seriously than the profits on one country's carmakers profits vs another's.

 

[bahnause]

The European carmakers are reeling, their business plans are not bearing fruit, the IC to ZEV transition is in the favour of the Chinese carmakers.
European carmakers are facing difficult situations such as plant closures and job cuts , rising costs and diminishing margins.

The only thing that causes problems for European car manufacturers is their own of lobbying against electric vehicles for years, triggered by their short-sighted strategy of maintaining the unsustainable status quo. Actions (or the lack thereof) have consequences. Chinese rivals are searching for production sites on the continent. The truth is, Volkswagen is making very substantial profits. The carmaker's operating profit was €22.6 billion in 2023, and they expect an operating profit of €20 billion this year. VW's management has created a doomsday scenario aimed at suppressing current wage demands and pushing for new state subsidies for EVs.

 

[Harpers Tate]

I suspect the strategy of the large car corporates is - we've been making cars for years. We know how. We started out with the question How to make an ICE and we have had our answer for years. So how can we adjust what we already do, to go electric. How can we adapt our classic ICE methods?

Much like trying to steer a supertanker, changing direction in a large corporation is a slow difficult process.

On the other hand, the newcomers (Tesla and the Chinese MG, BYD et al) start out asking a different question: How to make an EV. And perhaps unsurprisingly, they have come up with a "better" answer.

For an example, you only have to look at the cosmetics of the vehicles. It's a fair bet that the same applies "underneath" as well including in the factories.

Example:



That's a Polestar 2 which is really a Volvo in disguise. And right there above the numberplate is the place the radiator grille would go. Not that it needs one*.


Meanwhile here is an MG4, ground up an electric car



Many, many more examples are out there.

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* Evs do have a cooling system to maintain the battery, but the demands on it are way lower than the heat generated by burning fossils in an ICE; hence it does not need the huge airflow that the grille permits in an ICE.

 

[AM9]

On the other hand, the newcomers (Tesla and the Chinese MG, BYD et al) start out asking a different question: How to make an EV. And perhaps unsurprisingly, they have come up with a "better" answer

The EV only newcomers in the market have had some issues that show their inexperience e.g some Teslas have had problems with brakes and suspension. Of course the fastest and most effective way to drive out mis steps in design is to ramp up production and squeeze the problems out realtively quickly. The massive volumes that the Chinese manufacturers produce sorts their immature design faults out very quickly.

 

[matacaster]

The European carmakers are reeling, their business plans are not bearing fruit, the IC to ZEV transition is in the favour of the Chinese carmakers.
European carmakers are facing difficult situations such as plant closures and job cuts , rising costs and diminishing margins

When a major change occurs to in business requiring huge amount investment and ditching of legacy production it is to be expected that initially losses might occur. European EV makers are building big electric cars and pricing them to make very sizeable profits. They then offer big discounts to fleet buyers, but not to private buyers. They charge premium prices for tech, but once software is written and paid for it's a virtually free money spinner. Why don't they simply offer a price for a car with no discounts to anyone. Otherwise private motorists get a very raw deal.

 

[E27007]

The EV only newcomers in the market have had some issues that show their inexperience e.g some Teslas have had problems with brakes and suspension. Of course the fastest and most effective way to drive out mis steps in design is to ramp up production and squeeze the problems out realtively quickly. The massive volumes that the Chinese manufacturers produce sorts their immature design faults out very quickly.

The VW group are having many problems with software code for their iD range of ZEV cars, the code is not stable, performance and usability issues, an one owner of an iD at work confirms this , his iD4 is a rolling programme of software updates at the VW dealership, a recent service took two days due to code upgrades from VW.
The Chinese makers seem to be more proficient in code writing, the code in their cars is more reliable and fit for purpose, a factor which is assisting companies such as BYD to capture sales of ZEVs.

 

[AM9]

The VW group are having many problems with software code for their iD range of ZEV cars, the code is not stable, performance and usability issues, an one owner of an iD at work confirms this , his iD4 is a rolling programme of software updates at the VW dealership, a recent service took two days due to code upgrades from VW.
The Chinese makers seem to be more proficient in code writing, the code in their cars is more reliable and fit for purpose, a factor which is assisting companies such as BYD to capture sales of ZEVs.

So not an unfair advantage that should be beaten down with high tariffs, just less incompetance than the IC manufacturers heve tripped over. Those IC manufacturers have shrugged their shoulders for decades when major faults have surfaced.

 

[Noddy]

The VW group are having many problems with software code for their iD range of ZEV cars, the code is not stable, performance and usability issues, an one owner of an iD at work confirms this , his iD4 is a rolling programme of software updates at the VW dealership, a recent service took two days due to code upgrades from VW.
The Chinese makers seem to be more proficient in code writing, the code in their cars is more reliable and fit for purpose, a factor which is assisting companies such as BYD to capture sales of ZEVs.

Writing good software has nothing to do with being Chinese or not. Tesla, Lucid, Rivian are all American based and can do it really well. VW made many poor choices when developing its ‘Gen1’ ID3/4/5/Buzz/Cupra Born/Skoda Enyaq cars. Not just software but also hardware. As a Cupra Born driver it’s clear that VW software was terrible, but it has improved and can now do over the air updates, and AIUI the entire VW ‘gen 2’ EV range has now moved to a new hardware/software stack which is much better. So even they can do it too.

 

[MotCO]

On the other hand, the newcomers (Tesla and the Chinese MG, BYD et al) start out asking a different question: How to make an EV. And perhaps unsurprisingly, they have come up with a "better" answer.

Didn't Chinese MG start out making ICEs?

There is also another reason why the Chinese EVs are further developed than European EVs. The Chinese identified a gap in the market early on and exploited it by developing EVs. The real question though is did they create the gap in the market by bankrolling the climate change lobby and buying up most of the sources of raw materials for batteries, such as lithium, or were they just lucky?

 

[BananaRepublic]

.......The truth is, Volkswagen is making very substantial profits. The carmaker's operating profit was €22.6 billion in 2023, and they expect an operating profit of €20 billion this year. VW's management has created a doomsday scenario aimed at suppressing current wage demands and pushing for new state subsidies for EVs.

Despite their profitability, VW are also over $200 Billion in debt.
Almost 50% of their global earnings came from China, prior to Covid and the start of the mass roll out of EV's.
That source of income from China has shrunk massively and they are struggling to sell their cars there.
There's less demand for ICE vehicles and VW's EV's are too expensive and outclassed by the local competitors products.

Also, despite VW's significant levels of investment in German EV production, they have massive capacity devoted to ICE production, including major engine and transmission production facilities.
It isn't easy to just turn that off or transition away from.
There's a huge amount of capital investment and assets in those plants that can't easily be written off, not to mention an almost certain likelihood they'll have to put possibly 10's of thousands out of work.
Not an easy or cheap thing to do in Germany.

Former VW CEO, Herbert Diess was behind the companies full on charge into electrification, in a brave attempt to get ahead of the opposition.
However, being such a monolithic company with different internal VW divisions, each with their own corporate power bases, he faced a lot of opposition and internal politics, with various very senior executives fighting to save their own empires.
The unions were also very unhappy and fighting to keep the engine and gearbox plants going
Apparently this created a lot of turmoil, set against a very costly delay in launching the first ID car, the ID3 and the subsequent software debacle.
Diess was eventually removed. The company blob won.



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[Energy]

There is also another reason why the Chinese EVs are further developed than European EVs. The Chinese identified a gap in the market early on and exploited it by developing EVs. The real question though is did they create the gap in the market by bankrolling the climate change lobby and buying up most of the sources of raw materials for batteries, such as lithium, or were they just lucky?

I don't think they were lucky, and they certainly don't need to bankroll climate change lobbying. They were paying attention while many manufacturers were certain about hydrogen (Toyota) or weren't paying attention.

 

[jon0844]

The VW group are having many problems with software code for their iD range of ZEV cars, the code is not stable, performance and usability issues, an one owner of an iD at work confirms this , his iD4 is a rolling programme of software updates at the VW dealership, a recent service took two days due to code upgrades from VW.
The Chinese makers seem to be more proficient in code writing, the code in their cars is more reliable and fit for purpose, a factor which is assisting companies such as BYD to capture sales of ZEVs.

It's worth noting that the (Volvo) EX30 has had significant software issues too, some so bad that on various forums the general advice was not to buy - or even return the vehicle. However, overall for China, it's a drop in the ocean.

It resulted in Volvo organising a very public rollout (using car reviewers, influencers etc) to talk about the big software update that addresses many issues. It's rare to watch videos on something mundane like software, but I think Volvo realised the impact on its reputation (and bottom line).

VW did something similar to show how it has redesigned its software, which prompts me say that a lot of people buying a vehicle today are in fact going to be more persuaded by the in-car software and tech, including the availability of physical controls and buttons, than the rest of the car. Most consumers aren't bothered about the details relating to the motor or battery, or other mechanics, which is now pretty simple and a stark contrast to the choice of engines on a petrol or diesel car, the gearbox etc.

Some people may look at the 0-60 times but beyond that EVs are looked upon differently, and right now a lot of people are looking at cost and there was already a movement against SUVs before they became electric. The loss of estate cars and small cars because car makers can profit bigger on SUVs was a purely selfish move on their part, and the crazy big cars became a thing because in the USA they can avoid a lot of regulations - boosting profits further, while putting pedestrians (especially children) and cyclists in mortal danger.

I think these new small cars, as well as price cuts, are going to see EV sales grow massively - and it will be leaving the likes of Ford scratching its head and wondering how and why it all went wrong, and rapidly working to design a Fiesta EV at the very least (and hopefully later an EV Focus) to get back into the market. The current line-up, including the ridiculous Capri, is just not going to work for Ford in most markets - and one of their vehicles is built on VWs platform with many of the same issues that VW is trying to fix now carried out. It's almost funny, but I'm not laughing as I've spent most of my life buying and enjoying Ford cars - but they have nothing in the range I want now.

 

[BananaRepublic]

It's worth noting that the (Volvo) EX30 has had significant software issues too, some so bad that on various forums the general advice was not to buy - or even return the vehicle. However, overall for China, it's a drop in the ocean.

It resulted in Volvo organising a very public rollout (using car reviewers, influencers etc) to talk about the big software update that addresses many issues. It's rare to watch videos on something mundane like software, but I think Volvo realised the impact on its reputation (and bottom line)......

The EX30 is a superb little(ish) car, so it's a shame that Volvo got it so wrong on a few fronts.

Apart from the disaster of very glitchy software, in the pursuit of a minimalistic design language, they've followed the mistake of some other manufacturers and put far too many controls into the touch screen.
There's a dearth of easily accessible, physical buttons for functions that are likely to be needed while on the move.

The car also suffers from Volvo following the growing trend amongst manufacturers for using awful touch sensitive, or haptic controls on the steering wheel.
These are simply rubbish and a total nuisance.
These type of switches are often either non-responsive, or far too sensitive in equal measure.

Other things that may put people off, include the lack of a drivers instrument display behind the steering wheel, with functions such as the speedo being displayed on the large central display, Tesla style.
There isn't even the option of a Head up Display.
Both these, driver instrument display and HUD, are standard on the EX30's sister car from another of Geely's brands, the Zeekr X.

The choice of different interior designs (colours, type of materials and total look) is a positive, but the external paint colour offering is too limited.

Other than that, it drives and handles very well, is incredibly quick, especially with the dual motor version and price if purchasing is competitive (but not so on a lease).

If you want one, there are loads of brand new (both pre-registered and unregistered) available for sale at mark down prices.



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[jon0844]

Volvo will almost certainly introduce a driver display and buttons on the facelift, especially when buttons may be essential soon for the high safety ratings Volvo will consider a must for their brand.

I sat in one at Everything Electric and found it a little underwhelming and cheap looking. I respect the use of recycled materials and the reasons for some of the design choices but it felt cramped and claustrophobic. I am not surprised it is now possible to get one cheap.

Driving wise, it seems to have got that bit nailed - like the Smart car variant (which has more buttons and a driver display).

I've seen a fair few EX30s on the road though. Never seen the Smart version.

 

[BananaRepublic]

.....I think these new small cars, as well as price cuts, are going to see EV sales grow massively - and it will be leaving the likes of Ford scratching its head and wondering how and why it all went wrong, and rapidly working to design a Fiesta EV at the very least (and hopefully later an EV Focus) to get back into the market. The current line-up, including the ridiculous Capri, is just not going to work for Ford in most markets - and one of their vehicles is built on VWs platform with many of the same issues that VW is trying to fix now carried out.......

Ford in Europe now only sell 3 ICE powered models, soon to be just 2.
Puma (crossover), Kuga (SUV) and the Focus (production ending soon).
The Puma has been modified and facelifted to produce a new all electric EV model.

For EV's, their Mustang Mach E, has now been joined by the Explorer and it's "SUV Coupe style" Capri derivative.
The Explorer and Capri are based on the VW MEB platform and running gear
There's some VW switchgear in there too although the infotainment is their own.

Ford have done a deal to use VW platforms for future models, so we might get a Fiesta sized version of VW's forthcoming ID1, at some point.


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[jon0844]

It is especially crazy that VW has dragged its heels to replace the very decent small EVs it was making until relatively recently, and are now being snapped up as bargains in the second hand market.

Aren't they saying late 2025 or even 2026 for their next small car? Madness.

BMW should also be offering an i3 successor by now.

Stellantis and Renault have realised where things are going, and need to go to accelerate EV sales. Mind you, Stellantis has many other issues but they're not specifically down to the EV transition.

And while I have commented on the EX30, it's good that Volvo saw the need to return to more compact cars after having had a spell of going only after a mainly US audience of SUV buyers.

 

[BananaRepublic]

Volvo will almost certainly introduce a driver display and buttons on the facelift, especially when buttons may be essential soon for the high safety ratings Volvo will consider a must for their brand.

I sat in one at Everything Electric and found it a little underwhelming and cheap looking. I respect the use of recycled materials and the reasons for some of the design choices but it felt cramped and claustrophobic. I am not surprised it is now possible to get one cheap.

Driving wise, it seems to have got that bit nailed - like the Smart car variant (which has more buttons and a driver display).

I've seen a fair few EX30s on the road though. Never seen the Smart version.

I've had both a test drive and a 24hr loan of an EX30, so we've had a good look at it as a potential replacement for my wife's car.

The look of the interior changes quite noticeably between the different trim choices.
The basic recycled style does look a bit cheap, but it's well made.
Although I personally prefer lighter interior colours, in this model, the darker Blue interior (Indigo) looks more classy, while retaining its minimalist feel.

Rear seat space is very limited, with not enough leg room and the boot is quite small.
Nowhere near as cramped as in the new Renault 5 though.
Disappointingly, it didn't suit our needs as a 2nd car and we considered the Ultra trim (with heat pump), even in single motor form, was too expensive for the size of vehicle.

I've seen quite a few EX30's around here and there appear to be a few Smart #1's in the local area too.
Last week, I spotted what looked like the Brabus version of the #3.
It's the only #3 I've seen on the road so far (I sat in one at the British Motor Show a few months ago).


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[jon0844]

While the Renault 5 is more cramped, I actually like the cockpit feel. I am not sure about how light it will be inside as the only one I've been in has always been indoors.

I am however speaking as the driver who won't sit in the back often, if ever, and my family aren't convinced by it and are either looking at the more spacious e-C3, or having been on the Renault stand to see the R5 actually preferred the Megane e-tech, even though it's really too much for our modest needs.

It's nice to have choices though, and better pricing, but a shame to see so many incumbents still lacking in their offerings.

 

[Bletchleyite]

SUVs are lucrative, but they also lend themselves to EVs quite well because the elevated driving position allows the batteries to be located in the floorpan. Low cars are harder to do as an EV because you can't do that, you have to distribute them around other places. Though the MG5 estate seems to manage to do it by having them in the floorplan and thus having the car *slightly*, but not massively, elevated above the height it otherwise would be. (If you've ever sat in one the slightly raised floor as against an ICE estate is noticeable).

This might be why stuff like the Ford Puma developed, apart from the marketing aspect. It's essentially a Fiesta on stilts - sort of a modern day Fusion but in a sportier looking body. That gives you that bit of extra height for the batteries, but it's not *massively* higher than a Focus.

 

[BananaRepublic]

Structural battery packs and developments like BYD's Blade batteries, should help in lowering the height of the interior floor in EV saloon and supermini sized cars.
When they finally crack economical scale production of solid state batteries, the world should be their oyster for car design, as they take up much less space and you can theoretically pack them anywhere.

 

[AM9]

SUVs are lucrative, but they also lend themselves to EVs quite well because the elevated driving position allows the batteries to be located in the floorpan. Low cars are harder to do as an EV because you can't do that, you have to distribute them around other places. Though the MG5 estate seems to manage to do it by having them in the floorplan and thus having the car *slightly*, but not massively, elevated above the height it otherwise would be. (If you've ever sat in one the slightly raised floor as against an ICE estate is noticeable).

This might be why stuff like the Ford Puma developed, apart from the marketing aspect. It's essentially a Fiesta on stilts - sort of a modern day Fusion but in a sportier looking body. That gives you that bit of extra height for the batteries, but it's not *massively* higher than a Focus.

I had a Mercedes A class W169 (the second iteration) where the floor was flat and raised about 100mm above the norm for a medium sized car. The design of the original A class range(W168) had this raised floor to allow a EV version where the batteries would be accommodated beneath the floor. The W169 retained the feature although the idea of an EV seemed to be dropped as too early.

 

[DC1989]

I'm still amazed at how little public chargers there are in places like supermarket car parks etc. There's car parks with 1,000 + spaces that install 6 for instance. I live opposite a shopping centre with nearly 2,000 spaces. Not 1 single charger

6-8 years ago I was quietly confident in electric cars taking off, and I do think we will get there, but these are the kind of places I assumed would be first in line to get chargers. People can do their shopping, go to the cinema etc and have their car charged for another week - it's the perfect place to have them !

 

[jon0844]

I don't really spend enough time at a supermarket to see myself needing to charge, but I might if I went to a cinema or leisure complex for a night out - or a major shopping centre like Westfield.

 

[GLC]

I don't really spend enough time at a supermarket to see myself needing to charge, but I might if I went to a cinema or leisure complex for a night out - or a major shopping centre like Westfield.

I can’t remember where I read it, but someone wrote a nice breakdown of charging infrastructure by location they hoped to see. It went roughly as follows:

Hotels/Overnight accommodation: 7kW
Event spaces(Cinemas etc): 11kW
Supermarkets: 150kw
Service Stations: 350kW

Makes perfect sense to me. Fastest chargers where you need them, then decrease the power by how long you are likely to stay there