Penalty fare refused appeal

[babaijesha]

I need advice please:
On the morning of Friday, 9th August 2024, I arrived at Dartford station at 6:42 AM and attempted to tap in using my usual contactless payment method via my iPhone. Despite two attempts, the gates failed to open. A member of the station staff advised me that this sometimes happens and suggested I use my bank card instead. Following their advice, I used my bank card to tap in, and the gates opened without issue. I subsequently boarded the 6:46 AM train
On the journey, I was asked for my proof of payment. Initially, I attempted to tap in with my iPhone, as I had forgotten that I had used my bank card due to the earlier issues. When this failed, I presented my bank card, the same one I used to tap in at Dartford. To my surprise, the Officer claimed that the card also failed and asserted that I had not tapped in at all. i tried to explain the situation and provide evidence from my bank statement.

I appealed in writing but I got a response that my appeal was refused as it was submitted after the allowed deadline.

They have now written me to pay £131 or face criminal prosecution.

I believe this is unfair.

Please what are my options.

 

[AlterEgo]

First things first - have you checked your bank statement, and *did you in fact pay your fare*? How much did you pay for the journey? Did you tap out at the end?

Please also upload a copy of the notice with your details redacted so we can assess if there is a technical appeal possible based on how it was filled in.

 

[kacper]

Did the payment for this journey succeed? The only reason it would show up invalid on inspection if the card isn’t valid for travel, which happens if the 10p verification charge declines or another charge declines

 

[BongoStar]

I appealed in writing but I got a response that my appeal was refused as it was submitted after the allowed deadline.

How did you miss the deadline? And how many days past is this?

 

[babaijesha]

First things first - have you checked your bank statement, and *did you in fact pay your fare*? How much did you pay for the journey? Did you tap out at the end?

Please also upload a copy of the notice with your details redacted so we can assess if there is a technical appeal possible based on how it was filled in.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Oct 2024 ==

Dear Alterego, I’ve attached the appeal refusal letter.
I’ve also attached abi extract from the bank statement. It shows 2 times patient was made from the same account for the same journey - one from Apple Pay and the other from the card

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Oct 2024 ==

Below is the statement extract

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Oct 2024 ==

Did the payment for this journey succeed? The only reason it would show up invalid on inspection if the card isn’t valid for travel, which happens if the 10p verification charge declines or another charge declines

Dear @kacper,
The payments for the journey was made. There were 2 deductions - 9:20 for the journey, then 18:40 for an unpaid fare (for the same journey). The deductions were made from my account on the 10th August.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Oct 2024 ==

How did you miss the deadline? And how many days past is this?

i couldn’t do it immediately (although I wrote my appeal letter on the same day on the train, I wanted to get the appropriate evidences. Then, I just forgot to upload it. The appeal was sent on 11 September

 

[AlterEgo]

It looks like you have an unpaid fare there on the bank statement, which undermines rather than supports your contention that you did in fact tap and had a valid ticket when inspected.

 

[babaijesha]

It looks like you have an unpaid fare there on the bank statement, which undermines rather than supports your contention that you did in fact tap and had a valid ticket when inspected.

@AlterEgo , the statement shows that my card payment was declined (I don’t know why) but my Apple Pay payment was successful. It’s for the same journey. That was the issue I had at dartford station. I was still charged for the declined payment, while another payment was made with the Apple Pay option. Both in the same account.
I hope this clarifies the issue.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Oct 2024 ==

I’d really appreciate any advise. It’s making me anxious that this is going into criminal prosecution. I sincerely paid. I used my iPhone (Apple pay) when my physical card did not work.

 

[AlterEgo]

@AlterEgo , the statement shows that my card payment was declined (I don’t know why) but my Apple Pay payment was successful. It’s for the same journey. That was the issue I had at dartford station. I was still charged for the declined payment, while another payment was made with the Apple Pay option. Both in the same account.
I hope this clarifies the issue.

You can't be charged for a declined payment.

What exactly was the journey you were making, and did you make a single or return journey that day? This will help us ascertain exactly what fare you have paid.

 

[babaijesha]

You can't be charged for a declined payment.

What exactly was the journey you were making, and did you make a single or return journey that day? This will help us ascertain exactly what fare you have paid.

I made a return journey to St Pancras. It’s a journey I have made to work several times over the last 2 years.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Oct 2024 ==

I made a return journey to St Pancras. It’s a journey I have made to work several times over the last 2 years.

n the morning of Friday, 9th August 2024, I arrived at Dartford station at 6:42 AM and attempted to tap in using my usual contactless payment method via my iPhone. Despite two attempts, the gates failed to open. A member of the station staff advised me that this sometimes happens and suggested I use my bank card instead. Following their advice, I used my bank card to tap in, and the gates opened without issue. I subsequently boarded the 6:46 AM train
On the journey, I was asked for my proof of payment. Initially, I attempted to tap in with my iPhone, as I had forgotten that I had used my bank card due to the earlier issues. When this failed, I presented my bank card, the same one I used to tap in at Dartford. To my surprise, the Officer claimed that the card also failed and asserted that I had not tapped in at all. i tried to explain the situation and provide evidence from my bank statement.

I appealed in writing but I got a response that my appeal was refused as it was submitted after the allowed deadline.

 

[AlterEgo]

So on this day you paid £9.20 which is the single fare. The £18.40 is an unpaid fare - effectively a maximum fare - for an incomplete journey which is what happens when you don't touch in but touch out on the system. That is why it is listed as "UNPAID FARE" on the bank statement.

In any case, as you failed to appeal within the deadline, the train company retain the right to even prosecute you for this matter. I recommend paying the Penalty Fare as soon as possible to avoid this.

 

[babaijesha]

So on this day you paid £9.20 which is the single fare. The £18.40 is an unpaid fare - effectively a maximum fare - for an incomplete journey which is what happens when you don't touch in but touch out on the system. That is why it is listed as "UNPAID FARE" on the bank statement.

In any case, as you failed to appeal within the deadline, the train company retain the right to even prosecute you for this matter. I recommend paying the Penalty Fare as soon as possible to avoid this.

Thank you @AlterEgo
What are my chances of I decide to context this in court. I sincerely paid. Probably overpaid due to the 2 different payment options used (due to the problem).
I feel cheated posting this penalty.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Oct 2024 ==

Thank you @AlterEgo
What are my chances of I decide to context this in court. I sincerely paid. Probably overpaid due to the 2 different payment options used (due to the problem).
I feel cheated posting this penalty.

Correction:

Thank you @AlterEgo
What are my chances if I decide to context this in court. I sincerely paid. Probably overpaid due to the 2 different payment options used (due to the problem).
I feel cheated paying this penalty.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thank you @AlterEgo
What are my chances of I decide to context this in court. I sincerely paid. Probably overpaid due to the 2 different payment options used (due to the problem).
I feel cheated posting this penalty.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Oct 2024 ==


Correction:

You didn’t present a valid ticket and you are potentially guilty of a Bylaw offence.

The matter will be decided in the magistrates’ court if you choose to allow them to prosecute you, and if found guilty, you will receive no discount on the fine, which is linked to your income. You will have to pay the prosecution’s costs, a surcharge, and you will receive a criminal record.

Some posters may suggest speculative or technical defences but I would consider these to be very high risk with a low chance of success.

I recommend paying the Penalty Fare - unfortunately you have no right to appeal this as you allowed the time to elapse and regrettably you aren’t entitled to the early payment discount on it as a result.

 

[pedr]

The law permits train companies to treat as definitive any Penalty Fares they issue which are not appealed in accordance with the Penalty Fare Regulations. So the Penalty Fare is due and should be paid, and the train company can take the view that failing to pay it is failing to pay 'your fare' for the journey you took, since the fare due is the Penalty Fare. If you didn't then pay this by the deadline for paying after an unsuccessful appeal, the train company can prosecute.

You are entitled to think this is unfair and means you're paying much more than you should, but that doesn't change the legal position.

 

[furlong]

If you didn't then pay this by the deadline for paying after an unsuccessful appeal, the train company can prosecute.

That is a controversial position to take and does not represent common understanding.

Please refer to paragraph 69 of the Chief Magistrate's recent decision when he documented an ancillary issue (without taking a view):

69. Both prosecutors provided written and oral submissions on the law, broadly agreeing the position in law is as follows;
...
There is nothing within the regulation to suggest that the right to prosecute is resurrected after the penalty fare appeal process has concluded. There are good reasons to prefer such an interpretation: first, appropriate use of the State’s resources: an appeal process, with several levels, should not take place only then to become redundant if a Rail Operator chooses to bring a prosecution, second, it is undesirable to have an independent appeal process and criminal court effectively determining the same substantive issues where they could reach different determinations, third, finality, fourth, an individual appealing a penalty fare is required to set out their grounds for doing so, and may make any representations they wish to: the effect is they may both set out an evidential account, and self-incriminate – there would be unfairness if criminal proceedings could follow that process. It follows that any prosecution of a Byelaw offence, or section 5(3)(a) or (b) RRA offence, following an unsuccessful appeal of a penalty fare was invalid.

Where there was no appeal, rightly or wrongly (I think wrongly), we do commonly see train companies disregard the penalty fare (sometimes claiming to cancel it) and prosecute for offences arising directly out of the original situation.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Oct 2024 ==

For the OP, two problems.
(1) Missing the deadline takes you into uncharted territory over what can happen next as there are ambiguities in the regulations
(2) TfL making it difficult to obtain touch data. It's hard to argue your case without this.

Given you missed the deadline and in view of (1), you should probably pay, so the situation cannot get any worse. Then try harder to get the touch data out of TfL and make another appeal within the 14 days with the proof that the inspector acted outside his or her authority.

Had you made an appeal within the deadline, you could have written it in a way that required the train company to obtain that touch data from TfL if it wanted to oppose your appeal, instead of you now needing to do it.

If eventually you obtain the data that proves you touched in with the bank card then pursue the matter as a complaint, arguing the inspector followed a wrong procedure, and ask for your money back plus compensation.

 

[pedr]

That is a controversial position to take and does not represent common understanding.

Yes, I got that wrong. I think I must have meant “an invalid appeal”. There is, I suppose, an argument that could be made about making an appeal late/after the deadline still being an appeal because the company can choose to accept late appeals, but as you say this is uncharted territory.